are bridged amps common ground?
Comments
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I think a more accurate statement would be "Some Pro amps blow, and some High End Amps Blow".Feel better now that your rant is over..............what would we do w/o you :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .
Pro amps still blow!
There are good, and bad examples of each.
Paul Klipsch in his "Dope from Hope" newsletter once tested several amps for desing parameters he felt important.
I don't know if you have ever owned Klipschorns, but they are ULTRA fussy about what drives em.
In Klipsch's test, guess what amp came out on top ?
A BGW Pro Sound amp, LOL
Here is some more reading for you H9
High Current Amplifiers
There are some who insist that the instantaneous current output needs to infinite (or at worst, half this value), and that amplifiers with limited current sound terrible. This is another piece of nonsense.
Let's assume that a nominal 8 Ohm loudspeaker load has an impedance minimum of 1 Ohm at some frequency. This is a bad design, but a valid assumption. This means that the amplifier must be able to supply a maximum of 8 times the normal current. A 100W amplifier would then supply a normal peak current of a little over 3.5 Amps. At the frequency where impedance falls to 1 Ohm, this becomes just over 28A.
So let's have a look at the very worst case possible, where the load is fully reactive and returns all supplied energy 180 degrees out of phase (at this point, the load is performing no work, so if a loudspeaker, is making no sound). The amplifier now has to deal with two lots of current - that supplied to the load, and that returned from the load. Even it it were possible, the worst case above would require a current capacity of 56A, however a loudspeaker that presented such a load to any amplifier will not last long in the market, since it will blow up nearly every amplifier that is attached to it.
There is no audible benefit whatsoever in creating an amp that can supply 100 or 200A, since the load will never need this current and is incapable under any circumstance of drawing more than the applied voltage and minimum impedance will allow (allowing for the reactive component of the load).
Bottom Line on High Current Amps
Most quality amps will be able to supply sufficient current to drive the loudspeaker load. Any more capability than this is a waste of money, since it will never be used. To achieve these extravagant currents, the output stage and power supply must be far larger than will ever be needed in real life.
Class-A amplifiers are generally capable of a very modest current, usually barely above that theoretically needed to drive the speaker. I have not heard anyone claim they are rubbish, because of the low current capability.
The one exception is with extreme crossover networks or other speaker configurations that create a difficult impedance load. It will often be found that some amplifiers cannot drive these speakers well, and others have no problem. An amplifier capable of high current may sound better with these loads, but I suggest that the speaker design is flawed if the designer is incapable of creating a crossover that cannot maintain a respectable impedance.
Any Questions ? -
Yes, as a matter of fact. Let me hear what you have to say about the aforementioned with a bridged configuration.ka7niq wrote:If the amp produces the power it must produce the current, if the amp produces the current it must produce the power. This fact is inescapable, but it is amazing how much misinformation is spread in its ignorance.
Any Questions ?
Go ahead, I'm waiting.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
He's got to Google that one too. :rolleyes:
Anyone seen my hip waders?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
...and apparently having trouble.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Ohms law is ohms law.Yes, as a matter of fact. Let me hear what you have to say about the aforementioned with a bridged configuration.
Go ahead, I'm waiting.
A bridged amp will have more current, assuming the power supply can handle the load.
A bridged amp driving 8 ohms really "sees" 4 ohms.
So, if this amp in stereo puts out 200 wpc into 8 ohms and 400 into 4, it will bridge mono to an 800 watt amp into an 8 ohm load.
This 800 watt "monoblock" will have more current capability then one channel of a non bridged amp, assuming the power supply is up to the task.
The "problem" with bridged amps is overtaxing the power supply.
Example - My twin Ashly FET 500's will drive 2 ohms.
My Gvd audio amps will not.
Thus, into my stereo sub woofers that are 4 ohms, the Ashly can operate bridged all day long at about 1500 w rms into a 2 ohm load.
The GVD Audio amps also bridge, and do great, as long as it is an 8 ohm load.
Into the 4 ohm subs, they shut down.
They "think" they are seeing 2 ohms, and seek to protect themselves.
This gets down to BEEF.
The Ashly has a massive transformer, and huge aftermarket filter caps I installed.
It sold for over 1000.00 in it's day.
It is built like a tank.
The Gvd audio 6500 is a "good enough" amp, built to a price.
It will not do a 2 ohm load in stereo, and sure as hell not bridged either.
IF I defeated the protection circuitry, it could easily blow itself up.
Ohms Law is Ohms Law, current and power are related.
A bridged amp that delivers more power into a given load then a conventional amp IS a higher current amp into that load.
Here is something to chew on
My Gvd audio amp will do 380 WPC into 8 ohms, and almost 700 into 4.
An Odyssey Strathos, a GREAT amp BTW might do 200 into 8 and 400 into 4.
Therefore, unless you can prove Ohms Law incorrect, the under 200 dollar Gvd audio amp has more current then the Odyssey Stratos.
What I am trying to show is it don't really matter that much HOW much current an amp has, unless you are driving 2 ohms or less.
From Ohms Law, we can clearly see that almost any amp can drive down to 4 ohms with enough current to blow us out of the room.
"High Current" is just another marketing ploy unleashed on well meaning, but uninformed audiophiles.
I was at a local high end store recently, and laughed so hard I about spit out my coffee
One audiophile was bragging about his 45 watt Class A amp driving Magnepans.
He said "oh, it is a high current design, pure class A, fry eggs on it".
I am sure it drove Magnepans, they are 4 ohms.
It turned into a 90 wpc amp into a 4 ohm load and THAT is why it drove Magnepans.
Because a Class A amp is the least efficient, it has the least current potential. -
Dude...
I'll put an Odyssey Stratos against any pro amp on the market in sound quality, dynamics and overall response.
You just name the time and place.
I'll even put money on that one.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Who's yer daddyHe's got to Google that one too. :rolleyes:
Anyone seen my hip waders?
Actually F1 ... I really have to Google little, I already know most of the answers.
BUT, experience with you has taught me you will attack my ideas IF you think they are mine.
So, to save a lot of hassle, I find it easier to post things you can't refute
Now go ahead dip switch, attack Ohms Law, attack Atmosphere Amps.
Tell us WHY we need high current amps, LOL -
The Strathos is a well designed amplifier, known for it's great sonics.Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Dude...
I'll put an Odyssey Stratos against any pro amp on the market in sound quality, dynamics and overall response.
You just name the time and place.
I'll even put money on that one.
My experience has taught me that NO one amp is best on all speakers.
Thats why I own so many. -
ka7niq wrote:What I am trying to show is it don't really matter that much HOW much current an amp has, unless you are driving 2 ohms or less.
**yawn**
MTL dude, MTL. If you don't know what it stands for, then you have much to learn.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I think you are correlating current to something very different than we are...
Power supplies, no doubt are very important...
However, most power supplies have enough to supply curren to ANY pair of speakers - within reason...
What gets you is the capatinance ---
From what I understand, the power supply juices up the caps, and basically they are used for dynamic passages.
This is where pro amps really lose the game. Open up a pro amp one day --- not a whole lot of capatinance, just huge huge huge transformers. The key to that is simple, you want as loud of sound at one time. Who heard of dynamic range in a concert? Not me!
So you put a pro amp out of its environment (Home Audio) you get blah, alot of monotonous sound.
You get an amp thats capable of dynamic range, to discharge and recharge fast and handle those burst of sound -- you are in business...
Now I could be totally off base in general understanding, maybe not. I'm no engineer -- I just enjoy music...
But from the differences I understand in pro and home amps, I would NEVER use them for my mains. I push my mains HARD and I need them to be able to handle their peaks and dips with absolute ease and I want actual gaps in those levels...- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Ah hell --
I totally forgot about class A vs Class H, and so forth...
A whole nother ball game- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Nice talking with ya**yawn**
MTL dude, MTL. If you don't know what it stands for, then you have much to learn.
Gotta go, my girlfriend just got off work, spending night at her place. -
Correction. You think you know the answers, but your constant bad advice says otherwise.
There are other factors involved that make an amp high current other than rated power. Rail voltage is one, the transformer(s) are another and the number of transistors can be yet another.
Want to try again?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Man, trips like this are why I stopped hanging out around modern equipment junkies. Everyone needs to be the only one absolutely right. I don't get why folks always gets so wound up around this sort of thing. Past a certain technical point, everything involving audio is purely subjective opinion since it involves your own years and room. What sounds good to you might not to someone else, doesn't mean someone's wrong.
And there's always a trend in the mix. Back in the '50s and '60s the big deal was making hyper-efficient speakers for the 10W tube amps, then in the '70s everyone got caught up with dead woofers and uberwattage until they were making 400W RMS receivers, things died down with the digital BS in the '80s, now from the '90s on everyone's gotta have "high current" even if it's a Walkman.
Power supply caps both filter the DC coming out of the rectifier, and provide instantly available power for dynamic sounds. You'd rather have more than less, but they only have to be so big. The power transformer and rectifier have to be strong enough to drive the amp at full rated power without sagging. The power transistors have to deliver full rated power continuously without burning out. What the larger filter caps buy you is still just electrical power, available quickly for short durations.
The problem is that a dynamic load can only be so loud, and the power transistors can only handle so much power before they fail. That's why folks saying stuff like "This 50WPC amp can drive any speaker since it has 200,000 microfarads" drives me nuts. Within 50W RMS you can have good dynamic range, even above a little if the outputs don't mind, although it's doubtful you'll ever come close to using the engery potential in those 200K uF. But if you hook up that 50W amp to a inefficient speaker and crank it, that first bass drum kick will peak way over the power handling capability and you'll get the same clipping or shorted output stage you'd get in an amp with 5K uF. On the other hand, an amp with outputs that can handle 200W RMS will happly run along as long as the supply end can keep up. For your average dynamic load a few ten thousand uF would probably handle it fine. I'm too tired to work out what uF can deliver what current at a given voltage.
And all this fuss dissapears with genuine continuous loads. Once that 64' diaphone organ stop comes to the concert the filter caps' reserve is second fiddle to the available juice(from transformer/rec) since if it can't keep up with the discharge rate you ain't going to have sound for long.
I'm actually not sure what point I'm trying to make here, other than that amplifers can't be reduced to one specification. You of course can't buy an amp on watt specs as too many people do, but you also can't buy them on any other single line on the product flyer. -
You of course can't buy an amp on watt specs as too many people do, but you also can't buy them on any other single line on the product flyer.
Amen!
Having said that, I got curious and checked Crown's site. They don't list the amp (current) specs for the XLS 602, but they do for the CTs 2000. It's rated at 1000wpc @ 4 ohms and 40A @ 160V. Checking one of my amps, it's rated at 600wpc @ 4 ohms and 96A @ 150V. Mine also weights about 4 times as much, costs considerably more and has a sound that is to die for.
Things that make you go, hmmmmmmm or as a good friend would say, "Get the **** outta here."Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I drive my SRS 2s with a 40 wpc tube amp. It will pressurize my 450+sq ft room, easily."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Watts is watts, and high power cannot exist w/o high current, UNLESS it has silver litz wire farted on by Snake Oil Sam :eek:
This of course, changes the laws of Physics :rolleyes:The power formula tells us that 400 watts is just that, tube or transistor not withstanding. But let's look at the actual numbers for a second.By working with Ohm's law and the power formula, we can derive the following (simple) equation: Power = Current squared times Resistance. Plugging in the values we get 400 = current squared times 4. The current is 10 amps. That's all. Suppose an 8 Ohm speaker. The current is roughly 7.071 amps. If the amp produces the power it must produce the current, if the amp produces the current it must produce the power. This fact is inescapable, but it is amazing how much misinformation is spread in its ignorance.
Any Questions ?
Yes, I do have some questions.
1. Ohm's power law can be written in two forms:
a) Power (watts)= current-squared times resistance [P=I^2xR]
b) Power (watts)= voltage-squared divided by the reciprocal of resistance [p=V^2x1/R]
Question 1: If all watts are the same, why the need for two power formulas?
2. My understanding is that voltage is an electromotive force that drives electrons through a conductor. Furthermore, current is a flow of electrons, or charge, through a conductor. My understanding is that the charges, or electrons, are the entities in a circuit that actually do the work. In other words, the more charges you have, the less force you need to do a certain amount of work.
Based on this, it would appear that it would be more advantageous to have an abundance of current rather than an abundance of voltage.
Voltage and current can be thought of as analogous to water pressure and water in a pipe. If you needed to turn a propeller at a certain speed by forcing water through it, you could do two things:
1. Use a small amount of water and a high level of water pressure. (The low current case.)
2. Use a large amount of water and a commensurately lower level of water pressure. (The high current case.)
Question 2: Which would be better?
I have other questions also, but I would like to address these first. Thank you for offering to share your knowledge with us.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
It is true that SDA's are efficient speakers and do not require a lot of power. Most of them are specified for use with receivers as low as 20 watts in output. They can be driven to ear busting, glass shattering levels with modest amounts of power. However, I am more interested in the quality of sound produced rather than the quantity.
I do not prefer high wattage, high performance amps because I like to play loud music. I prefer them because they sound better. In my experience, the higher I have gone in clean power, the more realistic and three dimensional the soundstage. The strong suit for SDA's is their imaging/soundstaging capabilities. It seams a pity to use them with an amp, of any power, that defeats their main design purpose.
Watts are only one part of amp performance. Parts quality, circuit topology, and other electrical parameters (current capability, damping factor, etc.) have a significant impact on sound quality. All watts are not equal. As Confucious said over 2000 years ago, "...if the first watt sucks...why buy a thousand more of them?"Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
You haven't said anything, and now you are grasping for straws, LOLCorrection. You think you know the answers, but your constant bad advice says otherwise.
There are other factors involved that make an amp high current other than rated power. Rail voltage is one, the transformer(s) are another and the number of transistors can be yet another.
Want to try again, ****?
Trying to "save face" and make it LOOK like you know what is going on.
Fact - You didn't even know a high power amp was automatically high current.
Fact - you Dogged a forum members amp because it wasn't high current in your estimations, but it really was.
Fact - I made you Look bad
Fact - You are pissed because of it
Fact - You are grasping at straws, TRYING to turn attention away from YOUR bad and just plain wrong advice.
Who's YOUR Daddy -
The SDA type speakers image because of the SDA circuit.DarqueKnight wrote: »It is true that SDA's are efficient speakers and do not require a lot of power. Most of them are specified for use with receivers as low as 20 watts in output. They can be driven to ear busting, glass shattering levels with modest amounts of power. However, I am more interested in the quality of sound produced rather than the quantity.
I do not prefer high wattage, high performance amps because I like to play loud music. I prefer them because they sound better. In my experience, the higher I have gone in clean power, the more realistic and three dimensional the soundstage. The strong suit for SDA's is their imaging/soundstaging capabilities. It seams a pity to use them with an amp, of any power, that defeats their main design purpose.
Watts are only one part of amp performance. Parts quality, circuit topology, and other electrical parameters (current capability, damping factor, etc.) have a significant impact on sound quality. All watts are not equal. As Confucious said over 2000 years ago, "...if the first watt sucks...why buy a thousand more of them?"
I own SRS 2's, and do not find them particulary revealing of amplifier differences.
Now, my VMPS RM 40's, my 801's, and my Corner Horns are really amp fussy.
The SRS 2's have sounded good on almost every amp I tried, even a receiver.
The reciever sounded strained at high volumes in comparasion to the larger amps, so I took it out. -
You are SUCH a dumb ****.Amen!
Having said that, I got curious and checked Crown's site. They don't list the amp (current) specs for the XLS 602, but they do for the CTs 2000. It's rated at 1000wpc @ 4 ohms and 40A @ 160V. Checking one of my amps, it's rated at 600wpc @ 4 ohms and 96A @ 150V. Mine also weights about 4 times as much, costs considerably more and has a sound that is to die for.
Things that make you go, hmmmmmm or as a good friend would say, "Get the **** outta here."
My kids car stereo amp is RATED at 3000 watts.
Crowns specs are very conservative, worse case, because they deal with pro sound people, not dumb **** gullible "audiophiles" like you.
Hey dumbass, go buy a Harman Kardon reciever, they have "45 amps current" sometimes more. -
You haven't said anything, and now you are grasping for straws, LOL
Trying to "save face" and make it LOOK like you know what is going on.
Fact - You didn't even know a high power amp was automatically high current.
Fact - you Dogged a forum members amp because it wasn't high current in your estimations, but it really was.
Fact - I made you Look bad
Fact - You are pissed because of it
Fact - You are grasping at straws, TRYING to turn attention away from YOUR bad and just plain wrong advice.
Who's YOUR Daddy
1. Wrong, again. High power does not automatically make it high current. You've totally ignored the other factors involved.
2. Wrong, again. I suggested there are better choices for quailty sound.
3. Wrong, again. That will never happen, but you're doing a great job of making yourself look really stupid.
4. Wrong, again. I never get pissed.
5. Wrong, again. However, your advice has been consistently bad.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You are SUCH a dumb ****.
My kids car stereo amp is RATED at 3000 watts.
Crowns specs are very conservative, worse case, because they deal with pro sound people, not dumb **** gullible "audiophiles" like you.
Hey dumbass, go buy a Harman Kardon reciever, they have "45 amps current" sometimes more.
So, who is the one with pissy pants?
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I hope you enjoyed your stay.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
To a degree you guys are splitting hairs. Any high power amp will by nature be considered high current compared to low power amps. Just that some high power amps are capable of higher current than other high power amps.
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The SDA type speakers image because of the SDA circuit.
I own SRS 2's, and do not find them particulary revealing of amplifier differences.
Now, my VMPS RM 40's, my 801's, and my Corner Horns are really amp fussy.
The SRS 2's have sounded good on almost every amp I tried, even a receiver.
The reciever sounded strained at high volumes in comparasion to the larger amps, so I took it out.
Might want to get your ears checked. I heard a difference just swapping speaker cables, subtle, but the soundstage really opened up front to back. Can only imagine what a different amp might sound like.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I have owned several Crown amps QSC also. Much higher series amps then the XLS's. They are good for Sound reinforcement. Great at running into 4ohm's or less.
They are not really meant for home audio. They will work but the quality will lack. Although they do work quite well for subs.
I have to agree with F1Nut totally on this. High watt is not high current. They are apples and oranges. I will also say that the output stage on a Adcom will totally sound better then a crown or GVD Audio amp. Did you see there actual wattage ratings. The supply may handle the possible output but the sound would be so distorted it would be unlistenable.By ka7niq, Hey are SUCH a dumb ****.
My kids car stereo amp is RATED at 3000 watts.
Crowns specs are very conservative, worse case, because they deal with pro sound people, not dumb **** gullible "audiophiles" like you.
Hey dumbass, go buy a Harman Kardon reciever, they have "45 amps current" sometimes more.
I can tell your panties are all bunched up but keep the cursing to a minimum. It is one thing to disagree it is another to call someone out. And remember this is a public board. So try to keep it clean. I didn't get my way so I am going to resort to bad language. But I am educated and have met people. You must believe me, I am always right. Sorry this time you are wrong. I don't need to find a report on the web either because my ears told me so.
Note: I did not need to curse to say what I wanted to say. -
What it comes down to is what's quoted on paper vs. real world. A great personal example is the day an Adcom 535 @ 60wpc disgraced a Yammy rated at 380wpc. On paper ratings don't mean **** and pro gear, as a general rule, seems to inflate or obtain those ratings in a less than consistent manner.
Why is it that a Pass Labs amp rated at 30wpc into 8 or 4 ohms sounds so much better than a 1000 watt Crown? For that matter a First Watt amp is around 15 watts.
I know guys that can get 500hp out of a Chevette, does that make it a Corvette?
I'm done here some of the generalizations made in this thread are ludicris at best.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »It is true that SDA's are efficient speakers and do not require a lot of power. Most of them are specified for use with receivers as low as 20 watts in output. They can be driven to ear busting, glass shattering levels with modest amounts of power. However, I am more interested in the quality of sound produced rather than the quantity.
I do not prefer high wattage, high performance amps because I like to play loud music. I prefer them because they sound better. In my experience, the higher I have gone in clean power, the more realistic and three dimensional the soundstage. The strong suit for SDA's is their imaging/soundstaging capabilities. It seams a pity to use them with an amp, of any power, that defeats their main design purpose.
Watts are only one part of amp performance. Parts quality, circuit topology, and other electrical parameters (current capability, damping factor, etc.) have a significant impact on sound quality. All watts are not equal. As Confucious said over 2000 years ago, "...if the first watt sucks...why buy a thousand more of them?"
Some of you folks need to read this a few times......
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
You know, Special K.....if pro audio amps are such a great deal, why do you not own them? According to you...a watt is a watt and pretty much an amp is an amp....so why all the different amps, I mean, you've owned them all.
If they are all the same what's the difference?
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
IF you want to really hear differences in equipment, the SRS 2's are not the speakers.Might want to get your ears checked. I heard a difference just swapping speaker cables, subtle, but the soundstage really opened up front to back. Can only imagine what a different amp might sound like.
H9
This is NOT to say they are not a great speaker either.
They are just not as revealing as some other speakers are.
I know, I own a bunch of speakers.
If YOU think you heard a difference, more power to you!
