Let's talk Power Cords!
Comments
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Good show Doc!
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hearingimpared wrote: »Besides I can't give any credibility to someone who thinks Mono Price cables sound the same as even the lowliest of audiophile grade cables. Sorry!
Now..now...if someone says they can't hear a difference between a brand "X" cable and an entry level audiophile cable, who are we to argue? They probably really don't hear a difference, in which case they are blessed because they are spared the expense of searching for that holy grail in good sound. Just because a pair of ears can't hear a difference does not mean there is no difference. My eyes can't tell the difference between ultraviolent rays and x-rays, but I assure you there is a huge difference. (There I go with them analogies again.)Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Ha ha ha. The problem is that I'm not sure if some IC and PC naysayers have actually tried to hear a difference due to the obsession with double blind tests. I really have no problem, as I stated in an earlier post, if someone has tried and says they heard no difference. . . that tells me they are trusting their ears.:eek:
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hearingimpared wrote: »Besides I can't give any credibility to someone who thinks Mono Price cables sound the same as even the lowliest of audiophile grade cables. Sorry!
You'll put down a monoprice cable you've never even tried??! Welcome to the Zero Credibility Zone! Please review some more cables you've never tried and let us know the results. -
You'll put down a monoprice cable you've never even tried??! Welcome to the Zero Credibility Zone! Please review some more cables you've never tried and let us know the results.
Wow you must have really rifled through my cable box earlier without the dog even barking Mr. Credibility! -
hearingimpared wrote: »The problem is that I'm not sure if some IC and PC naysayers have actually tried to hear a difference due to the obsession with double blind tests.
Mannnnnnnn....those audio ABX tests would have some credibility if they were done in a truly controlled environment. The way they are always set up, they are no more accurate than the Psychic Hotline and are strictly for entertainment purposes only.
If you show me a picture of an office building and then another picture of the same building with subtle architectural changes and ask me to pick out all the differences, I, and others, might score no more than 50%. If you show the same two photos to the building's architect, he or she would probably spot all the differences in 10 seconds flat. He or she might also spot some differences they weren't on the test. Why? Because they have a lot of familiarity with the subject matter.
Piling a group of people into a room to listen to music that they are not very familiar with on equipment that they are not very familiar with is not my idea of a controlled environment.
I have stated my protocol for listening evaluation in previous posts. Briefly, what I do is:
1. Use source material that I am very familiar with.
2. Use a chart to record the relative positions of sounds, voices and instruments within the soundfield.
3. Record the quality of sounds, voices, and instruments within the soundfield (volume, grainy, bright, tizzy, slow, fast, 3-dimensional "weight", etc.).
4. Record the variances, if any, in the soundfield characteristics when an equipment change is made.
I have never once read a case of these types of quantitative and qualitative measurements being applied to an audio ABX test. They just bring some folks in and have them write down some "comments". Yeah, that's real scientific.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I did a double blind test with some power cords recently and discovered that one tasted like Pepsi, while another tasted like Coke, but my favorite one tasted like Dr. Pepper. Don't you want to be a Pepper too!?!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
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I have it on good authority that some reviewers "taste" some coke (with rum) before every review.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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That's it!! :mad: I'm working on a completely wireless system. No more IC's or PC's or speaker cables!!! :rolleyes: It's gonna be a challenge but I'll give it my best shot. The only concern I have is the air quality in my room. I'll have to install air-purifiers so my wireless signal is passing thru nothing but the cleanest air. I don't want my signals getting dirty & grungy before they reach my gear. And as far as a fair A/B test, that'll be simple...listen to a familiar piece with the air-purifiers on then turn them off. That'll be real quick & easy. Then we can really judge if the quality of the air makes a hoot of a difference. Hmmm...I wonder if anybody else is working on this? Just think of the money we'd save!! The only thing left to argue about would be the differences in the air-purifiers & which one does a better job of just letting the music flow. Man we could argue about anything in this hobby!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Wireless is the future.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Wireless is the future.
If so, then some **** is gonna make scientific claims that air isn't a good conductor of sound and promote the need for audiophile quality air purifiers.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
My take is that if you do not have some serious power conditioning, or more importantly, if you do not have have an electrical regenerator, then the last couple feet of electrical wiring after traveling thousands of miles through transformer after transformer and through your neighborhood and then house wiring and finally hitting your outlet... those last couple feet are not very important.
At best you are not going to color the electricity anymore, and at worst you are going to add yet another coloration to the 60hz sinewave after traveling all those miles through god knows what.
So... unless you are 100% sure that you are getting a good 60hz sinewave, like from a regenerator and you want to preserve *that* signal, then a megabuck powercord is just a bunch of snake oil.
Let me put it another way. Many audiophiles have used Home Depot heavy duty "orange" extension cord wire for our speakers, and the sound is said to be pretty darn good... well if that cable is good enough for A/C to your speakers, why is that type of cable (common in stock cords) insufficient for the A/C from your wall that only has to go a few feet? Remember also that speaker wire must carry a much more sensitive A/C signal, where the A/C from your wall is 60hz all the time.
I consider Expensive ICs to work somewhat like an EQ, coloring the signal to your tastes, and one could apply the same logic to power cords, except that your ICs aren't attached to thousands of miles of outdoor electrical cable, transformer after transformer and the wiring in your walls.
Expensive powercords certainly can't "fix" your signal... -
Screw the PC, just pipe some 12-3 romex straight out of the wall into your gear. Seems to be the best option as a PC would just "color" whatever the romex is bringing to it anyway.There are two ways to argue with women. Both of them are wrong.
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My take is that if you do not have some serious power conditioning, or more importantly, if you do not have have an electrical regenerator, then the last couple feet of electrical wiring after traveling thousands of miles through transformer after transformer and through your neighborhood and then house wiring and finally hitting your outlet... those last couple feet are not very important.
At best you are not going to color the electricity anymore, and at worst you are going to add yet another coloration to the 60hz sinewave after traveling all those miles through god knows what.
So... unless you are 100% sure that you are getting a good 60hz sinewave, like from a regenerator and you want to preserve *that* signal, then a megabuck powercord is just a bunch of snake oil.
Let me put it another way. Many audiophiles have used Home Depot heavy duty "orange" extension cord wire for our speakers, and the sound is said to be pretty darn good... well if that cable is good enough for A/C to your speakers, why is that type of cable (common in stock cords) insufficient for the A/C from your wall that only has to go a few feet? Remember also that speaker wire must carry a much more sensitive A/C signal, where the A/C from your wall is 60hz all the time.
I consider Expensive ICs to work somewhat like an EQ, coloring the signal to your tastes, and one could apply the same logic to power cords, except that your ICs aren't attached to thousands of miles of outdoor electrical cable, transformer after transformer and the wiring in your walls.
Expensive powercords certainly can't "fix" your signal...
Last time I checked any gear worth it's salt should have excellent power regulation. Sure the re-generator is a great idea, if not a bit overpriced. But if you have a quality designed piece of equipment with ample power regulation a PC could possibly help get the most out of your system. You certainly don't need a re-generator or conditioner to realize a positive outcome.
Of course if the gear is mediocre and has poor regulation and an insuffecient power supply and lots of current limiting circuitry (which most middle of the road gear have) then a PC probably isn't going to make a difference, especially for the cost involved. A **** is a **** so the money spent on a PC for **** equipment is better used as savings for a nicer piece of equipment.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
If the better piece of equipment has the ability to properly handle the straight wall A/C after traveling thousands of miles through all sorts of outdoor elements, countless transformers, neighborhood poles, through your breaker box and throughout the walls of your house, then having a few feet of 24k solid gold power cords plated with platinum in a silver lining is not going to make it any easier for that said equipment to do that work.
If the power cord is of good copper at an acceptable gauge based on current draw, then it should do the job... otherwise you are only transferring all that dirty grungy power and noise .00001% better than the stock one.
The only time that .00001% matters is when you are regenerating that 60hz sinewave in a controlled condition where getting that signal to your equipment as un-modified as possible matters.
If you are getting a drastically different sound over a reasonably built stock cord, when you are plugging it right into the wall, then you need to consider what the heck it is really doing to your A/C signal... it may be coloring it considerably MORE than the stock one (and perhaps that is the idea... it works for Bose, coloring audio to sound more "pleasant" to mass market).
However, you have the right idea... equipment should be designed to handle A/C from the wall in a proper manor, although many times it is not. This is why I consider money spent on a regenerator better spent, if you really want to work with good a/c. -
Again your point is moot. A properly designed power section in any high end piece of equipment can take that well traveled, grungy power and noise and turn into enough of a pure source to sound great w/o the use of a conditioner or re-generator. Could these pieces help?........ of course they could help but the impact becomes less and less as the piece of gear it's hooked to becomes better and better.
This is the reason certain pieces of equipment cost hundreds vs. thousands. You make it sound like the electricity coming from a wall socket is never any good and is always in need of conditioning and filtering. A good PS section of any design that knows what they are doing effectively diminishes the effect the somewhat poor electrical signal coming from the wall plate.
Of course there are always extremes and one can have a special circumstance where even if using very well designed equipment one or both a conditioner or re-generator can help.
For the record PC's can make a difference but not as much as interconnects or speaker cables.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I agree! Monoprice cables are great if your system is way too bright and the gain on your sub is way too high. They're also great if you like the sound of a bed comforter over your speakers.You'll put down a monoprice cable you've never even tried??! Welcome to the Zero Credibility Zone! Please review some more cables you've never tried and let us know the results.
Now that's funny!Screw the PC, just pipe some 12-3 romex straight out of the wall into your gear. Seems to be the best option as a PC would just "color" whatever the romex is bringing to it anyway."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I agree! Monoprice cables are great if your system is way too bright and the gain on your sub is way too high. They're also great if you like the sound of a bed comforter over your speakers.
Now that's funny!
Uh oh, be careful, he may have rifled through your cable box and missed the Mono Price cables in yours too! BTW they work great connecting the old Onkyo receiver to the old Sony 5 CD disc changer and the very old tape deck in my 10 year olds bedroom!:D -
If so, then some **** is gonna make scientific claims that air isn't a good conductor of sound and promote the need for audiophile quality air purifiers.
+1 !!!
Don't you just know it's TRUE!!!
& Many will buy them!
& Then we'll debate them, too!"Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." Bob Seger -
For the record PC's can make a difference but not as much as interconnects or speaker cables.
I can agree to this. -
In my experience, they [power cords] don't color the sound. They bring out the sound and improve the lower frequencies. A PC upgrade made such a difference on my sub [tightening the bass/mid-bass and improving the integration between the sub and speak's], it stayed there instead of the intended location [that being the CDP].I consider Expensive ICs to work somewhat like an EQ, coloring the signal to your tastes, and one could apply the same logic to power cords, except that your ICs aren't attached to thousands of miles of outdoor electrical cable, transformer after transformer and the wiring in your walls.
That's obvious. They can, however improve the overall experience [sound] given the right gear.Expensive powercords certainly can't "fix" your signal...~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Your stock cord may have been just really bad quality. Subs use a lot of power, and if the stock cord was of a small gauge with low quality wire, it may have been converting some of that power into heat and EMI rather than getting it all to the sub.
There is always an argument for good quality components, even PCs. -
Screw the PC, just pipe some 12-3 romex straight out of the wall into your gear. Seems to be the best option as a PC would just "color" whatever the romex is bringing to it anyway.
Why wouldn't this work? After all, without some kind of storage system in the current path, an 8 gauge power cord can't produce more current than is delivered to your socket by the 12 gauge wires in your wall.
After giving this a lot of thought over many years, I will tell you why I think Romex wouldn't provide an adequate solution -
1. You would now have unshielded high current A/C signal moving around in and amongst your low current ICs, other power cords and very near the circuit boards, DACs, capacitors, resisters, etc. of your ensemble of electronics equipment. At the very least, it makes sense to have the A/C power coming from the wall to your gear through a well shielded "pipe", something lamp cord is definitely not, and neither are most stock grounded power cords provided by the manufacturers with modern audio gear. Sure these cords make the equipment perform to spec when it is the only piece of gear on the test bench. Stack 2, 3, or 4 pieces together in your rack, all drawing current at different rates with cords draped, coiled and laying everywhere, and it is easy to see how interference could cause real world audio performance to differ from factory bench tests, regardless of how clean the power is coming out of the wall or your power conditioner. This is in part why having a outboard power supply can dramatically improve performance.
2. Furthermore, it is conceivable that complicated wiring geometries and exotic materials might have an impact on how well the current stays within the "pipe", reducing effects on other equipment, and on how well the effects of other current paths and resulting magnetic fields affect A/C moving through the "pipe" to its target gear.
So, can after market cords affect sound in a positive way? I have heard it with my own ears and believe that they can. In theory, anything that can be done to keep the A/C from the wall to your gear from "polluting" other cables or gear in your rack, and that can prevent this initial current stream from being polluted by other fields in the immediate area is a good thing . At the least, one would think that a good shielded cord with an electron carrying capacity similar to 12 gauge Romex would be an improvement over a narrow gauge unshielded wire operating in a moderate to highly complicated audio system. If adding to the wire's gauge, using exotic metals and/or complex braiding patterns adds noticeably to system dynamics and clarity by keeping potentially noise-causing electromagnetic fields in or out of the system post socket, then who are any of us to argue with tangible results if we notice them?
I say listen and buy what you think makes a difference. If you can afford the most expensive cables and that makes you happy, then good for you. If you cannot hear any difference in your system between custom PCs and OEM cords, then save your money and you will be happy. kn -
I think you know a lot.:)Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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Yes... PCs are more of a very fine tuning for your system. If you have a regenerator, filter, or dedicated line, getting that 60hz sinewave to your gear as undistorted as possible is definately something that you are going to want to do. Consider PCs speaker cables for 120v 60hz signal... but with much more current.
My aversion to PCs is not that they do not make a difference, it is the mindset that the "last few feet" are going to make all the difference. Every component in the chain matters... including what is behind the outlet... -
I learned about PCs here on this forum. My 1st experience has been a pleasant one to say the least. I havent jumped up with the big boys yet (200-1000 bucks). I started out with SignalCable and love the results so far. As for more input I cant say a whole lot, Im still learning, but again from what I have heard, I have to say I enjoy. If you dont notice an improvement, at least you'll have a nice cord in the end, that was my take.Shoot the jumper.....................BALLIN.............!!!!!
Home Theater Pics in the Showcase :cool:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=73580 -
Jumped in this one late but for the hell of it here it goes.
I have always been a firm believer due to experience that power conditioners make a noticable difference in ones system. Not to mention the protection benefits are basically priceless. Over the many years I have been into this hobby, only over the last 5 or 6 years have I explored the Power cord upgrade.
For me, an upgraded powercord even if it provides no sonic benefits, the ability to have a shorter or longer cord depending on need a a beautiful thing for wire management. I don't like to make antennas out of any of my cables/wires. Having the cable look good is the smallest benefit( I used to care about the look of my cables and now I could care less).
After going though a few different power centers, I ended up with the Panamax M5500ex which I'm completely happy with. It has the ability to change the powercord and I did as the factoy one was like 10 feet long and I only needed 5 feet so...
I have also Installed a 20 amp deadicated to my gear with a PS Audio Hosiptal grade outlet.
I have had many different powercords. I have done the cable swap program and tested some very nice power cords. They all seem to change the tone of the system depending on where you place them. I did notice with some cords no difference over the factory cord and some I noticed a change.
After the dust settled in all my demos I found Kimber Kable and Audioquest to make the best sounding powercords in my system. I used to use a mix of the 2 brands but now I'm all Audioquest. Audioquest is a great cable company and all there cables even there entry line cables are fantastic.
Are powercords worth there retail price??? I'm not sure as I think you can do so wire management and use quality IC's and get better results. But adding in the powercords also make for an overall better experience. I'm a firm believer that any gain is good gain. But some of these powercords price tags are not justified by there gains added in the system. It comes down to balance once again, the right level cord for the system will probably up the value. Also finding the right mix of cables.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
These are all great points. However, if it is simply shielding how come I can hear differences in different type of ends? I also can hear differences in different constructions.....I am sure most higher end PC's would be shielded well and yet I still hear differences. In fact I tried 1 highly regarded PC and it ended up choking my system?
I hope this isn't coming across in a defensive and/or offensive manner...I am just posing the question.
Thanks,
MikeModwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
Consonance cd120T
Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
Usher CP 6311
Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote -
Personally, I'll just stick with my Tice Audio alarm clock and green CD marker...;)
