Let's talk Power Cords!

pearsall001

What's your take on the PC debate. Do you really think they make a difference & if so what did you notice performance wise. From what I've read the general consenses is that a PC will have a bigger impact on your system than IC's. I myself am in the "I believe camp". What are you running now & let's hear your preference. I know this has been talked about before but I felt like striking up the conversation again. I myself have had great results with Signal cable & LAT PC's. I just might be in the market for a 3' cord down the road. Any other brands I should consider? Any nay-sayers head on over to Audioholics forum & bother them!!

disneyjoe7

Standing by for fall out

pearsall001

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Standing by for fall out

I got my helmet on!!!

Early B.

I switched out my PS Audio PCs recently. My system sounds better than ever. Problem is -- you gotta try several brands and price points before you can really determine what works for you. Same issue with everything else in audio, I guess.

I have no clue why PCs make a difference. I just know that they do.

Compare the silver PCs with copper ones.

Midnite Mick

I posted a thread of a PC that I tried a little while ago. They are just haunting me they made my system sound so good. I am getting close to pulling the trigger, just a little longer.

I posted some of my thoughts on it here as well as some others that have done the same.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rcabl&1182917153&read&3&4&

Mike

janmike

I have 4 or 5 different ones and will try these when the 2CH finally gets put together. One brand I will purchase is Virtual Dynamics, just because I can and want to experiment. This will kick it up a notch.

F1nut

It's my experience that IC's make a bigger difference. That said, I like PS Audio Statement power cords.

pearsall001

janmike wrote: »

I have 4 or 5 different ones and will try these when the 2CH finally gets put together. One brand I will purchase is Virtual Dynamics, just because I can and want to experiment. This will kick it up a notch.

I've been on the lookout for a used Virtual Dynamics David Series or one of their higher line PC's. They're tough to find & pretty expensive. I picked up the David series digital & RCA cables for a really good price at usedcables.com. If their PC's are anything like their other cables...well enough said.

I've also heard a lot of good things about PS Audio PC's like F1nut mentions. Worth checking out.

PolkThug

Detachable power cords suck, they add extra connections into the electrical path which cause sonic veils to be lowered. If the power cord if made of a different substrate of metal than the connections in the wall socket, add one more veil of sonic blockage. If the male IEC connector on your gear is yet another combination of metal, add another veil. So count on your detachable power cord adding 3 veils of sonic blockage, which will make your gear sound worse, which believers will perceive as 'different' and 'better'.

However, if you can get all the connections to match, 3 veils will be lifted.

Good luck!

Midnite Mick

I have a statement that could be available if you want to wait until I get the Thunderbirds Phil. When the time comes I could just ship it for you to try if you like.

Mike

hearingimpared

Just like any other tweak there is a cumulative effect here. I have five power cord upgrades in my rig. Two Signal Cable Magics, two Musical Concepts and one Timbre DAC "heavy stock" power cords.

I need three more to complete having all the my gear with upgraded power cords.

If I had to pick out one piece of gear that would benifit the most from a power cord upgrade, I wouldn't hesistate to choose the preamp! That one peice of gear IMO sets the flavor for the rest of the rig.

Being that this subject has been done to death, I believe everything written by people who have tried power cord upgrades whether it made a difference or not to their rig. It has for mine mainly in the lower noise floor category.

sucks2beme

Go with the simple and sure fire. Run one or more 20 amp dedicated circuits to your system. More amps on demand = more bass and dynamics.

I wouldn't invest in a cord upgrade without doing this first.

disneyjoe7

I feel the LOVE Baby



Do you feel the LOVE?

mulveling

To be honest, I'm a bit of a PC skeptic. Yes, some of that is blind prejudice coming from a "how stuff works" perspective, a little closed-minded for sure

I won't totally dismiss them until I spend serious effort comparing several in my system - but in reality the funds are pretty much always going to be allocated to something else before PC's, and the time is going to be allocated for just enjoying the music

I used to have a couple really nice LAT PC cords (not quite whole-system, though) and nothing really struck me there, though no formal comparisons were done. I HATE A/B'ing for subtle differences when I'd rather be enjoying the music. If I do give it another go in the future - I have to figure if the difference can't be heard on my SOTA > Zana Deux > Qualia 010 setup (insane resolution, freedom from room acoustics) - then these ears of mine aren't ever gonna hear it

On the one hand it's certain that some peoples' ears are far more capable than mine at discerning certain differences; on the other hand I'm pretty sure my ears aren't less than avg in any major area, so if I can't hear it then most people can't either

hypertone

Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers.

DarqueKnight

Zero wrote: »

Typically, the electrical wire in the average home spans well over 100ft in length. That’s just the stuff coming from your circuit breaker. The main electrical line which your home draws its power from is often thousands of feet long. If that’s not enough, the wire in the home is typically your ho-hum 12gauge copper wire that is at best, only modestly shielded. Most audiophiles wouldn’t touch that stuff with a 10ft poll. That begs the question; how can the last few feet of that chain make a difference?

If your took a 1000 mile trip by car, 970 miles of which were over a coarse gravel road and the last 30 miles were over silky smooth asphalt, would it make a difference in how you felt when you arrived at your destination? Would it make any difference in your car's performance?

Zero wrote: »

Yet, for the sake of argument – let’s say that for known and certain reasons that those last feet do matter. We then fight another problem; most electronics compromise the power signal the second after it passes through the IEC when it hits the circuit board. Very, and I mean very few components, even in the high end, run the power cable directly to the power supply.

Better power cables present a lower resistance path for the power supply to draw power through. The less resistance the power supply meets when trying to suck power out of the wall, the less stress on the power supply. The less stress on the power supply, the better it can supply clean DC power to the amp/preamp/source component circuits. It is like the difference between drinking water from a 1/16" diameter straw (like those little coffee cup straws) or a 1/2 inch diameter straw.

Even if there is some current constriction on the other side of the IEC jack, a lower resistance path between the wall socket and the component can still be beneficial. Again, consider the example of sucking water through a straw. However, this time assume that the person drinking has a constricted, sore throat. Sucking water through a tiny coffee straw will add to the indivudual's discomfort because their throat muscles will constrict further as they try to exert enough suction to overcome the resistance of the small straw. This will make the water drawn into the mouth even more difficult to swallow. Sucking water through a straw of sufficient diameter to minimize tensing and further contriction of the throat will allow more water to swallowed. Drinking from a glass will would cause almost no further constriction and the amount of water swallowed would be maximized.

mulveling

Problem is, the power draw requirements of your amp and the resistance of even a crappy 18ga stock cord is nowhere near the levels required for results anything like your straw analogy - most likely an order of magnitude away. Plus there are the reservoir caps in the power supply...and the fact that even a crappy PC is going to measure a fraction of an ohm...far less than the 8 ohms limit to get the max 15 amps out of a 120V socket (OK - 4 ohms for you lucky **** with a dedicated 30 amp circuit ).

The theoretical explanations aren't going to work for this PC thing. Just gotta rely on the ears for this one.

disneyjoe7

I don't feel the improve is just because you replaced a 18g PC with a 12g PC, it's more then that. Not sure what but same day I will buy on just to take it apart, well that's how my mind works. I got to see how that works.

Early B.

hypertone wrote: »

Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers.

Not sure about circuit breakers, but audiophile eletrical wiring and power outlets have been on the market for many years. The electrical wiring is too expensive, though.

Early B.

sucks2beme wrote: »

Go with the simple and sure fire. Run one or more 20 amp dedicated circuits to your system. More amps on demand = more bass and dynamics.

I plan to do this in the next few weeks.

bikerboy

I found that mid bass boom or bloom was eliminated by changing to better pc. I havent used any higher (>$150) priced types but the VH Audio wire and connectors have been great. Topend has smoothed out depending on the cord. Have used signal, ps audio, and vh audio so far. I have 2 dedicated 12 ga runs in the man cave. I wish I had run 3, one for amps, one for analog and one for digital. Would have been cheaper/better than a power conditioner.

BottomFeeder

"Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers."

+1!

Deadof_knight

I am in the believer camp as well , all though I have yet to pull the trigger if they make the same difference as the speaker and interconnect cables did SHAZAM it should be great !

rskarvan

I've got a request into the power company to re-wire the neighborhood with Cardas silver and to upgrade the transformer on the pole to a torroidal design.

Systems

hypertone wrote: »

Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers.

Im not sure if they still do ,but did PS Audio market an "Audiophile"version of the hospital grade Hubbell outlets.

Early B.

Here's the dedicated "audiophile" in-wall cable:

http://www.jpslabs.com/powercord.shtml

Scroll half way down the page...

John K.

It isn't helpful to attempt to introduce irrelevant analogies involving roads, straws, hoses, etc. instead of considering the simple technology of power transmission which is actually involved. As was mentioned, the resistance of the typical power cord is on the order of a tenth of an ohm and can't have an appreciable effect on the amount of power coming out of the wall; no "choking" is possible. Typical power cords are rated to carry over 1,000 watts and are satisfactory for even uses(e.g., hairdryers, hotplates)which are far more demanding than audio equipment. Even an application of simple logic should indicate that designers who create audio components selling for hundreds or even thousands of dollars wouldn't then sabotage their own creation by saving a dollar or so with a power cord that didn't allow optimum performance.

Beyond technology and logic, in practice there's also no factual basis for power cord illusions. Although the phrase "Just trust your ears" is seen frequently, there appears to be a reluctance to trust the only way that this can actually be done: a closely controlled double-blind test. Some audiophiles seem to have about as much enthusiasm for this as a vampire has for daylight. One of such power cord blind tests drew a fair amount of attention not too long ago. It can be noted that the author of the article is a "believer" who seemingly never tried a bizarre audio application that he didn't like, and his lack of enthusiasm for the results isn't a stunning surprise.

Both theory and practice lead to the same result in this area.

dorokusai

I've stopped believing in double blind tests as well. It's all BS in a different venue and is still inherently flawed.

I don't care much about this debate anymore and have been running on personal satisfaction at this point. Isn't that the point? Argue all you want, cable this, cable that, who gives a ****.

hypertone

I totally agree with JohnK. But I'll bet a typical power cord resistance is even lower than a tenth of an ohm, I'll bet its only 10 milliohms. And one amp at 120V is 1200 watts, so most amps even though considered high current, aren't drawing much amperage from the mains, due to it being higher voltage. Increase the V and you decrease the I. That's why they up the voltage to travel long distances, so there are fewer losses over the wire.

Just do the math I=V/R and you will realize that even a 1 ohm power cord can still provide a ton of current.

Audio gear runs on DC anyway, which is a flat line on an oscilloscope. It doesn't really matter what goes into the diodes, a flat line is a flat line; they all sound the same. Silent.

hearingimpared

John K. wrote: »

It isn't helpful to attempt to introduce irrelevant analogies involving roads, straws, hoses, etc. instead of considering the simple technology of power transmission which is actually involved. As was mentioned, the resistance of the typical power cord is on the order of a tenth of an ohm and can't have an appreciable effect on the amount of power coming out of the wall; no "choking" is possible.

With all due respect, I'll take the analogy of a PhD in EE any day. Not to mention my own experience and education in electronics as well as my ears. My power cord upgrades were not purchased by me, they came as a result of a trade with a friend or came with a particular piece of gear. I have no emotional attachment to the PCs nor real money invested in them either. So when I hear the noise floor in my rig getting lower due to five great PCs I want to complete the circle.

Besides I can't give any credibility to someone who thinks Mono Price cables sound the same as even the lowliest of audiophile grade cables. Sorry!

DarqueKnight

John K. wrote: »

Typical power cords are rated to carry over 1,000 watts and are satisfactory for even uses(e.g., hairdryers, hotplates)which are far more demanding than audio equipment.

Really? Lets see, a hairdryer gets hot and blows air. A hotplate just sits there and gets hot. An audio component must cleanly reproduce a complex electrical signal for the purpose of recreating a three dimensional aural illusion, i.e. MUSIC. Maybe your audio gear just sits there, gets hot, and blows air, in which case, I agree that a standard UL rated cord will suffice.

John K. wrote: »

It isn't helpful to attempt to introduce irrelevant analogies involving roads, straws, hoses, etc. instead of considering the simple technology of power transmission which is actually involved.

I can understand where the analogy would not be helpful to you personally. However, there are others who might find the analogy useful. For example, electrical engineers have used water flow analogies for electrical current flow for as long as there have been electrical engineers.

John K. wrote: »

Even an application of simple logic should indicate that designers who create audio components selling for hundreds or even thousands of dollars wouldn't then sabotage their own creation by saving a dollar or so with a power cord that didn't allow optimum performance.

Really? Let's look at some statements from two respected high end audio manufacturers.

The following statement appears in all the current PS Audio owner's manuals for their electronic components:

"While the supplied power cable is adequate for the task it is not going to provide the best performance."--Taken from page 5 of the GCA Amplifier Series manual. GCA amplifiers range in price from $2,295 to $3995.

The following statement appears in all the current Pass Laboratories owner's manuals for their electronic components:

"Power Cords: Pass Labs provides a power supply cord that meets all legislated requirements for the market in which the product was originally sold. If you choose to substitute an after-market product we urge you to choose one that is fully safety rated by the necessary local authority."--Taken from page 7 of the $18,000 X600.5 amplifier manual.

Even an application of simple logic should indicate that the application of premium parts in all areas and aspects of a component's design will yield audible benefits.

The manufacturers of high quality audio gear fully expect that some, maybe most, purchasers of such equipment will throw the stock cord away...just as the manufacturers of high performance automobiles fully expect that some, maybe most, purchasers of their vehicles will replace the stock wheels and tires with something else.

John K. wrote: »

Beyond technology and logic, in practice there's also no factual basis for power cord illusions. Although the phrase "Just trust your ears" is seen frequently, there appears to be a reluctance to trust the only way that this can actually be done: a closely controlled double-blind test. Some audiophiles seem to have about as much enthusiasm for this as a vampire has for daylight.

You sound bitter.