Just when I thought audio made sense.....
Comments
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This would be an interesting product if it were offered for under $500. A good upgrade for those who purchased low power AVR's without pre-outs.
It would be a great product if you could get 2 or 3 of them for your front stage of your home theater. If it would boost your output to about 200wpc I could see many people recommending them - look at the popularity of the outlaw monoblocks and what it would open up if you did not have have pre-outs to use them.
MichaelMains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms) -
No it isn't Face. At least not to MY ears. I have had certain songs that I know extremely well played on a 200wpc Parasound, Rotel, & a 405wpc Sunfire. All the details that I know are in the music have been heard loud & clear at various volumes by all 3 amps.
Those same details have been muted & muffled on other lesser amps/receivers. Including a 100wpc Rotel digital amp that was supposed to give Rotels regular amps a run for their money. I wasn't impressed. When the songs were played on a Rotel 200wpc amp the details were back.
So long as I hear those details clearly, then I am satisfied that the amp is doing what it is supposed to do!I'm sorry, that's incorrect.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Thank you Phuz!
Like you, my ears haven't been able to detect any audible differences in comparable solid state models either!reel: I do understand and agree that it might color things a little, and that it is very subjective. The second link I posted states that the difference would be slim to none and has a personal experience to back it up. My ears haven't heard 'em yet so I can't say. I can say that I'd trust MF, and that in my opinion any quality SS amplifier would do just that... amplify and not color. If MF did things right then the superchargers will do that and nothing else.
What review did you read? I'm interested. Thanks.
This is highly debatable, but my ears tell me that there is little to no audible difference in comparable solid state models of Rotel, Adcom, B&K, Parasound, etc. amps. They are amps, and nearly transparent in the context of what kind of difference all other parts of a system make. I expect that MF would be one of the most transparent of any amp out there.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Thanks Cat.No it isn't Face. At least not to MY ears. I have had certain songs that I know extremely well played on a 200wpc Parasound, Rotel, & a 405wpc Sunfire. All the details that I know are in the music have been heard loud & clear at various volumes by all 3 amps.
Those same details have been muted & muffled on other lesser amps/receivers. Including a 100wpc Rotel digital amp that was supposed to give Rotels regular amps a run for their money. I wasn't impressed. When the songs were played on a Rotel 200wpc amp the details were back.
So long as I hear those details clearly, then I am satisfied that the amp is doing what it is supposed to do!
Here's my take:
When I moved "up" (as well as down and around) the amp chain I heard (or missed) "more" details in music I thought I was familiar with. Some of it had to do with the amp, some of it had to do with the speakers, cables, pre, tubes, so on and so forth. I definitely heard a difference the last time I changed amps. Guess, in the end, its all about the system as a whole and the synergy (or lack there of).
IMO - Amps have different sonic signatures.Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10 -
I would agree. This would be the only situation(no pre outs,low power) where I would want to hook an amp up in this manner.This would be an interesting product if it were offered for under $500. A good upgrade for those who purchased low power AVR's without pre-outs...
MichaelTesting
Testing
Testing -
Eh...
I'd put some 100 watt amps up against higher powered amps any day of the week.
I think overall current is more important that raw power. Personal opinion there.
This thing from MF seems pretty pointless.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Thank you Phuz!
Like you, my ears haven't been able to detect any audible differences in comparable solid state models either!
I'm not totally agreeing here, I mean VERY comparable amps. As in watt for watt, ohm for ohm, amp for amp. Your comparison of a digital Rotel amp to a SS amp is very different. The difference you heard may not have been a 100w vs. 200w difference. It may have been a SS vs. digital/switching difference.
I'm suprised you didn't hear a difference with the Sunfire. Bob's stuff usually has a fairly distinct warm sound when compared to other stuff.
I mentioned a small group of very comparable brands which are relatively in the same class. Once one goes in to the higher (or lower) range each brand has some very distinct sonic qualities.
Halo has a very valid point, although not relevant since you are happy Cathy. That's all that really matters! -
I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else, but I can relay my own personal experience.
I was powering my main 2-channel system with an ADCOM GFA-585 dual mono amp that's rated at 250W @ 8 Ohms. My speakers are not particularly difficult to drive (Mirage OM-7s) and they sounded great when hooked up to the 585.
I've always been a fan of Monarchy Audio, so I recently took the plunge and bought a pair of SM-70 Pro mono blocks. They are rated at 80W @ 8 Ohms. At first I was concerned that I would be reducing the wattage going into my speakers by over 66%. But I'd heard such good things about the SM-70 Pros that I had to try them.
I can tell you from personal experience that the SM-70 Pros win hands down. No comparison whatsoever (and I loved the way the 585 sounded). Music is more detailed and definitely has a much better sound stage.
According to my handy RadShack sound meter, I had the system cranked up to 111db (from about three feet away) and I couldn't get the SM-70s anywhere near clipping range. Seeing as my ears were nearly bleeding at that level, I have no need to test them any louder!
That being said, the 585 didn't clip at that level either, but it became a little less musical at that listening level.
Again, I can only speak for myself, but I've found that wattage isn't everything./COLOR] [U][URL="http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=68366"][COLOR="Blue"]My Rigs[/U][/COLOR][/URL] [COLOR="Red" Balanced Audio Technology | Revel | Dodd | Monarchy | PS Audio | MIT | Polk | Etc. -
So with that being said, I will go for the $300.00 amp because 200 watts is 200 watts.
Not much could be farther from the truth.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'm not totally agreeing here, I mean VERY comparable amps. As in watt for watt, ohm for ohm, amp for amp. Your comparison of a digital Rotel amp to a SS amp is very different. The difference you heard may not have been a 100w vs. 200w difference. It may have been a SS vs. digital/switching difference.
Agreed!
I'm suprised you didn't hear a difference with the Sunfire. Bob's stuff usually has a fairly distinct warm sound when compared to other stuff.
I think for me, the warmth/harshness comes from the tweeter. So long as my ears aren't bleeding from everlasting sssssssss, & horns & cymbals are giving me a headache I'm fine. You also reach the limitations of the speakers themselves.
I mentioned a small group of very comparable brands which are relatively in the same class. Once one goes in to the higher (or lower) range each brand has some very distinct sonic qualities.
Halo has a very valid point, although not relevant since you are happy Cathy. That's all that really matters!
Yup. Thanks!:)Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Not much could be farther from the truth.
When I hear a difference Jesse, I'll let everyone know. But for now, for ME it is true!:) At least within the boundaries of the class of gear I have tried.
Actually it will probably always stay true since I'm not interested in trying every amp under the sun to see what sounds different. I found 200wpc works for me & if I had to replace my current amp it would be replaced with another 200wpc amp.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
I am going to have to agree with you on this Victor. I have never heard 2 SS amps sound the same no matter what price range manufactuer or wpc. I have owned several amps. this list is a few of them. Cathy has it right when she says us guys like to play with things and trade a lot.Thanks Cat.
Here's my take:
When I moved "up" (as well as down and around) the amp chain I heard (or missed) "more" details in music I thought I was familiar with. Some of it had to do with the amp, some of it had to do with the speakers, cables, pre, tubes, so on and so forth. I definitely heard a difference the last time I changed amps. Guess, in the end, its all about the system as a whole and the synergy (or lack there of).
IMO - Amps have different sonic signatures. most of them low to mid fi.
Perhaps its that my ears are more sensitive than most? who knows. Some have a better treble some better midrange others the bass stands out. some have had a much better soundstage, some wider, some deeper, some more forward sounding. others seem to have a better dynamic delivery more alive, others have been so coarse sounding it was unbearable to listen to for long periods.
EG. Altec 9440A pro amp. 225 wpc at 8 ohms it had a very clean natural sound powerful and dynamic. The only pro amp that I have ever heard that sounded really good for home audio.
Altec 9444A pro amp 300 wpc at 8 ohms very powerful but lots of distortion.
Adcom GFA-555 200 wpc at 8 ohms plenty of power quick bass treble was too bright for my taste.
Proton D1200 100 wpc at 8 ohms the cleanest sounding most neutral amp I have ever heard. and dead quiet even at full volume. Lots of reserve power, soundstage was good but not exceptional.
Carver TFM-35X 250 wpc at 8 ohms exceptional soundstage, very warm tube like. great for brighter speakers not so good for darker sounding ones.
Kenwood KM-X1000 130 wpc at 8 ohms decent power. soundstage was ok not good though clarity was ok not good though. a amp that doesnt really excell at anything but a very reliable simple amp, and a great value in the used market.
The point is to my ears every one of these amps sounded very different to me. Though I have to admit when I bridged these amps mono. power was increased dramatically but the sound pretty much stayed the same not enough improvement to talk about. I had to really listen to tell a slight difference.
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
I am pretty sure we hashed out the amps sounding different thing well over five years ago.
phuz,
I do not really think it matters much where a review may have come from, but more that it is what a reviewer discovered in their listening on there system. The one I read was in HIfi news just for the record. Besides what matters most here are the perspectives of the club members not some reviewer. I am pretty much a big fan of MF gear, however, I do know Stereophile consistently gushes over Antony and his products, so I always keep this in mind.
It has been my exp. that different amps sound different whether tubed or sand, it has been my exp. that different resistor materials do affect the signal differently which alter the signal causing the speaker to sound different. It has been my exp. that different gain controls alter the signal causing different sound. It has been my exp. that extended signal paths need to be avoided as again the signal is altered, maybe altered is not the right word, the signal is degraded.
Furthermore, I frequently see a linearity to causal effects on our pages when we speak of audio, i.e. change amp=better sound or change speaker=better sound and so on, however this linearity is defeating as we actually have a closed loop system which operates within a unique environment and includes the listener, this very circular. We know from physics law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, within a closed loop when you change in or out anything in the system you will cause a change somewhere else, it is inevitable.
I may one day buy this MF product, but most likely it would be because I want a set of mono-blocks. Everyone should do what they want, but I would certainly caution against a fixed mind-set that any given system is not going to change when something new is introduced or something else is taken away.
RT1 -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »Everyone should do what they want, but I would certainly caution against a fixed mind-set that any given system is not going to change when something new is introduced or something else is taken away.
RT1
Point taken and agreed. I was just questioning the idea that the sonic qualities of the original amps would be washed with this product, or that the change would be negative.
I guess we'll see someday. I'd sure be interested in getting my ears on some. -
Blake....
you completely summarized my personal experience with the ancient Chinese art of amplification. And you did it with monos.
Just for the proverbial **** and/or giggles, juice your speaks with a single. And see how well those 35 watts tickle your fancy.
This has been a great thread and I'm a bit late to the party, but "watts are watts" and all that jazz? Seriously?(emoticon)I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I think I finally crystallized my incredulity about the Stereophile report on this gizmo:
How could people who (EDIT: claim to) have hi-fis that are so resolving that they can hear the difference in power cords not be able to hear a sonic effect (degradation) by adding in a few more gain stages; with a billion active and passive devices added to the signal chain?? -
I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else, but I can relay my own personal experience.
I was powering my main 2-channel system with an ADCOM GFA-585 dual mono amp that's rated at 250W @ 8 Ohms. My speakers are not particularly difficult to drive (Mirage OM-7s) and they sounded great when hooked up to the 585.
I've always been a fan of Monarchy Audio, so I recently took the plunge and bought a pair of SM-70 Pro mono blocks. They are rated at 80W @ 8 Ohms. At first I was concerned that I would be reducing the wattage going into my speakers by over 66%. But I'd heard such good things about the SM-70 Pros that I had to try them.
I can tell you from personal experience that the SM-70 Pros win hands down. No comparison whatsoever (and I loved the way the 585 sounded). Music is more detailed and definitely has a much better sound stage.
According to my handy RadShack sound meter, I had the system cranked up to 111db (from about three feet away) and I couldn't get the SM-70s anywhere near clipping range. Seeing as my ears were nearly bleeding at that level, I have no need to test them any louder!
That being said, the 585 didn't clip at that level either, but it became a little less musical at that listening level.
Again, I can only speak for myself, but I've found that wattage isn't everything.
ATTA boy,
This is a very true statement as Blake and I share the same experience and philosophy. This is why I'm so enthralled with Pass Labs products of late. Low power, very dynamic, simply designed with outstanding parts and only 30 wpc. or less in some cases.
Christ you can short the outputs of the Aleph 3 or 30 with no consequence wahtsoever (unless you leave it that way for awhile). Talk about a robust no nonsense design and extrememly rugged parts. Only 2 gain stages keeps thing as pure as possible from input to output.
Monarchy has some of the same attributes but on a lesser scale at a lesser cost.
As always you need to do your homework and understand certain basic principles of electronic to understand why and how these extremely simple amplifers (compared to many many others on the market) sound so sweet.
Sure it's a big project to understand but you will be rewarded with excellent sounding very dynamic amplifiers.
Watts do not equal watts. And to say so is foolish. Phuz I disagree with your statement Rotel, Adcom, Parasound all sound the same. They are pretty different to my ears.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Sheeesh! Get on the train guys and gals! Only amps with 200 wpc or more sound good
Now back to your regularly scheduled disagreement :eek:DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
Phuz I disagree with your statement Rotel, Adcom, Parasound all sound the same.
H9
That's not really what I said, but ok. -
phuz wrote:This is highly debatable, but my ears tell me that there is little to no audible difference in comparable solid state models of Rotel, Adcom, B&K, Parasound, etc. amps. They are amps, and nearly transparent in the context of what kind of difference all other parts of a system make.
Sorry if I misinterpreted but I thought that's what you were saying."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Sorry if I misinterpreted but I thought that's what you were saying.
It wasn't you, I wasn't very clear. I'm not the best with words sometimes.
I sure wish I could get my hands on a pair of those superchargers.... -
I'm done! I like what I got, I'm not interested in picking every little thing about it apart, it sounds terrific & I'm keeping it!
I'm going to go home, make myself some dinner, open a bottle of wine & watch Van Helsing!
The rest of you can knock yourselves out with all your tweeking, upgrading, switching & other crap that you like doing!:pSheeesh! Get on the train guys and gals! Only amps with 200 wpc or more sound good
Now back to your regularly scheduled disagreement :eek:Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
That's all that matters. I'm done! I like what I got, I'm not interested in picking every little thing about it apart, it sounds terrific & I'm keeping it!"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Hmmm... No other lesser amps sound good its just that 200 wpc ones sound better is all lmaoooo.Sheeesh! Get on the train guys and gals! Only amps with 200 wpc or more sound good
Now back to your regularly scheduled disagreement :eek:
Actually it depends on many things.but it seems that for most mid fi solid state amps costing 500.00 to 2500.00 on average. 200 wpc is where there is usally a big improvement in sound.
Over that number not so much. Less than 200 usally isnt able to deliver the dynamics that I prefer. Its a rule of thumb is all and a good place to start.
There of course will always be exceptions to that rule.
I think what cathy is trying to stress here is that if you buy a 200wpc amp or higher there is a much better likely hood that you will have adequate power to drive your speakers without clipping and reserve power to not stress the amp during deep bass passages and be satisfied is all.
EG. If you were to take these well known amps and try them on most systems you would find that there is a big difference in sound quality at the 200wpc level. But not so much after that level.
GFA-5200- 50w x 2
GFA-5300- 80w x 2
GFA-5400- 125 x 2
GFA-5500- 200 w x 2
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
Snow, YOU RULE!!!:D Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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It's a rule of thumb for the simple folk.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Careful Mark. That statement comes across as vaguely condesending & insulting.
It's a rule of thumb that works whether simple or complicated it WORKS!It's a rule of thumb for the simple folk.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Care to elaborate? I am always willing to be enlightened. I am assuming here you are referring to high current lower wattage class A, Ice amps, and tube amps if so these are as stated, exceptions to the rule of most mid fi SS ampsIt's a rule of thumb for the simple folk.
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
