Just when I thought audio made sense.....

Gaara

Is it just me or is this the third time in the last couple of months that we are arguing over 200wpc being a minimum for good sound?

I am rocking out with 25wpc right now and am loving it, sounds much better then it did with 300wpc running through these speaks. IMO It is all about design, not power.

snow

Gaara wrote: »

Is it just me or is this the third time in the last couple of months that we are arguing over 200wpc being a minimum for good sound?

I am rocking out with 25wpc right now and am loving it, sounds much better then it did with 300wpc running through these speaks. IMO It is all about design, not power.

What are you using for a amp/amps Gaara?

REGARDS SNOW

Gaara

The 25wpc is a Monarchy Audio SM-70. Tried the Earthquake Cinenova Grande which is 300wpc with these speakers and liked it but didn't love it, I love the sound with the Monarchy.

snow

Gaara wrote: »

The 25wpc is a Monarchy Audio SM-70. Tried the Earthquake Cinenova Grande which is 300wpc with these speakers and liked it but didn't love it, I love the sound with the Monarchy.

Thats a very nice class A amp that has gotten some great reviews. Glad you like it I may very well try that one or something similar soon myself.

REGARDS SNOW

venomclan

Gaara wrote: »

Is it just me or is this the third time in the last couple of months that we are arguing over 200wpc being a minimum for good sound?

I am rocking out with 25wpc right now and am loving it, sounds much better then it did with 300wpc running through these speaks. IMO It is all about design, not power.

At least the 3rd time. More of a joke than a discussion. Watts don't mean $hit.

It is like putting the best race car tires on a Toyota Corolla, you can't tell a difference in performance if you do not exceed 70mph.
Venom

snow

venomclan wrote: »

At least the 3rd time. More of a joke than a discussion. Watts don't mean $hit.

It is like putting the best race car tires on a Toyota Corolla, you can't tell a difference in performance if you do not exceed 70mph.
Venom

sorry venom but you are flat wrong with a blanket statement like that. If your telling me you cant hear a difference at the same volume levels with the amps I mentioned earlier you have some hearing problems.

And actually you will also notice a difference in handling at 70mph with better tires too LMAOOO Thats kind of like saying there is no difference in ride quality between a yugo and a rolls royce as long as there both going less than 70mph.

REGARDS SNOW

markmarc

I've enjoyed this thread as the different views weren't attacked, but instead read and replied to in thoughtful manner. Kudos to everyone for taking the high road!

IMHO, 200wpc don't mean squat unless the high current capability is available to handle instaneous transient attacks. Even then, I don't believe that one needs that much power to hear the minute details. I owned the Adcom GFA-555 and although it was a brute, it lacked smoothness and was noisey and shrill. For what one gave up in power, the GFA 535 made up in smoothness.

Right now I'm demoing and still trying to convince the wife to buy the MF A3cr (85wpc). When it was available new it went for $1500. I can tell you that it is leaps and bounds more musical, detailed, powerful, etc. than $500 SS amps. Why, because the construction involves higher quality parts, bigger transformers, you name it. I just wish I had a pair of LSi's to pair it up with, I bet it would be a real treat to the ears.

I can also tell you that Gaara is right when he says that it is all about design. I also have on hand an Athena 3wpc tube integrated, and an 18wpc tube by Vista Audio in for review, and both of killed my 150wpc HK integrated in sound quality that is why the hk is gone). Neither could produce the sheer thunder of bass, but the HK was so sloppy with it that it pained the ears.

I've said it before my Onix SP3 tube amp at 38wpc, made the LSi7's come alive with incredible detail and power behind the intense transients. All because it was designed with components to handle such moments.

A key point to remember in Stereophiles article was that the 110db measurement was on a specific percussion attack, not constant sound. had it been that loud continuously the hall would have been empty in 10 minutes.

To Blakeh:
Congrats on getting the Monarchy SM70's, they are one of the best kept secrets in audio. I would encourage everyone to investigate lesser known brands anytime you're in the audio market.

dorokusai

snow wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

REGARDS SNOW

Not really.

snow

dorokusai wrote: »

Not really.

LMFAO Ok I guess I will remain one of the simple unenlightened folk then.

REGARDS SNOW

Gaara

markmarc wrote: »

I can also tell you that Gaara is right when he says that it is all about design. I also have on hand an Athena 3wpc tube integrated, and an 18wpc tube by Vista Audio in for review, and both of killed my 150wpc HK integrated in sound quality that is why the hk is gone). Neither could produce the sheer thunder of bass, but the HK was so sloppy with it that it pained the ears.

To Blakeh:
Congrats on getting the Monarchy SM70's, they are one of the best kept secrets in audio. I would encourage everyone to investigate lesser known brands anytime you're in the audio market.

I currently have 3 main systems with different goals in mind. One uses a 10wpc class T amp to good effect, another a 25wpc class A amp, and the third a ~550wpc class D amp.

I can't say one amp is better then another, it all depends on the speakers they are paired with. What worked great with my LSis and Gallos didn't with my Rothschilde A2s.

Blake, congrats on the SM-70 Pros, I just got a single SM-70 and am loving it, can't imagine what the 2 of the beefed up versions would be like.

Jared

P.S. Zero if you are reading this you were so right, the SM-70 matches the Rothschildes amazingly well. This is the best I have heard them sounding, and I have gone through a lot of amps over the last few months.

snow

Gaara wrote: »

I currently have 3 main systems with different goals in mind. One uses a 10wpc class T amp to good effect, another a 25wpc class A amp, and the third a ~550wpc class D amp.

I can't say one amp is better then another, it all depends on the speakers they are paired with. What worked great with my LSis and Gallos didn't with my Rothschilde A2s.

Blake, congrats on the SM-70 Pros, I just got a single SM-70 and am loving it, can't imagine what the 2 of the beefed up versions would be like.

Jared

P.S. Zero if you are reading this you were so right, the SM-70 matches the Rothschildes amazingly well. This is the best I have heard them sounding, and I have gone through a lot of amps over the last few months.

Have you reached audio nirvana yet? One of the good things about a thread like this is learning new things and about new components. I think anyone with an open mind realizes that its not neccesary to have a 200wpc amp to achieve good sound. comparing class A and tube amps to most solid state amps are like comparing apples and oranges there simply different.

200 wpc is simply a good place to begin for most folks looking for a mid fi solid state amp because most do have the capacitance required to handle the low ohm rated loads associated with transients versus most lesser rated ones usally dont. There are exceptions of course, I own a couple of amps that are rated for far less than 200 wpc that do very well.

REGARDS SNOW

Gaara

snow wrote: »

Have you reached audio nirvana yet? One of the good things about a thread like this is learning new things and about new components. I think anyone with an open mind realizes that its not neccesary to have a 200wpc amp to achieve good sound.

I think Jimbrick said it well "if I had the funds for these right now I'd have grabbed them, I want to try everything I can".

I am pretty happy where I am in 2 of my rigs. I tried maybe 10 amps and 7 DACs between the two systems, focusing on the amps I found ones that just clicked with my main rig, everything came into focus and just seemed right. I am close with the Monarchy in my PC rig, so not at nirvana yet but pretty f'n happy with how things turned out in both systems.

I think the only way to know is to try lots of different gear. Before I tried out all those amps I was in the camp of "all properly functioning well made amps sound the same". Now I know better.

zombie boy 2000

I saw a "watt" once ride a unicorn to the end of the rainbow. A hobo snagged that "watt". And took it to a castle far, far away....

"Where's your watt now?"

venomclan

snow wrote: »

sorry venom but you are flat wrong with a blanket statement like that. If your telling me you cant hear a difference at the same volume levels with the amps I mentioned earlier you have some hearing problems.

And actually you will also notice a difference in handling at 70mph with better tires too LMAOOO Thats kind of like saying there is no difference in ride quality between a yugo and a rolls royce as long as there both going less than 70mph.
REGARDS SNOW

Snow,
How the hell did you put me in the "all amps sound the same" camp? Not my camp. To do a list like yours, here are a few of the amps I owned in the last 3 years:

Fisher Studio Series (80's, power rating unknown) Nice sounding amp made for smaller systems, inherited from a family member. Used with monitors in a secondary system it was very nice.

H/K PA5800 (5 X 80W/8ohm) - powerful yet cold. Very little musicality. An HT amp used best in HT. Stayed pretty cool to the touch.

Outlaw M200's (200W/8ohm) Neutral, yet a bit on the colder side. More musical than the H/K, yet better suited for HT. Ran nice and cool to the touch for long periods.

Adcom GFA535 (60w/8ohm) Great little amp! Runs cool to the touch. Very warm and detailed sound. I prefer this amp to the more powerful Outlaws and H/K. Very musical. A classic underated amp.

Carver Silver 9T Monoblocks (575w/8ohm) These beasts can run anything. Very smooth sound. Ran a bit warm to the touch. These were nice but not as detailed as I preferred.

Krell Kav 250A (250w/8ohm) Another beast. Detailed and very quiet. Black level better than all the rest - Silent. Very powerful beyond their ratings and very fast. Worked great on my prior B&W's, yet a little too dry on my current Gallos.

Butler TBD2250 (250w/8ohm, SS/Tube Hybrid) I just received this amp 10 days ago. This is BK Butler's personal lab amp w/lower THD. Runs cooler than any other amp I have owned. Very detailed and fast, yet warm sounding. No fatigue with this amp. Still running it in, but is a keeper so far. Mates well with my Gallos.

I think my hearing is pretty good. YMMV

As for the tire analogy, perhaps you missed my point, perhaps I did not elaborate. Anyway...

I did not say that there is no difference in handling at 70mph with better tires. I was trying to point out that it would be pointless to test and compare high speed (Race) tires, without taking them to the speeds they are rated to perform at. There is no point of putting Z rated tires on an economy subcompact that will never see those speeds. A much less tire will do.

I feel the same with speakers. An amp, or any other equipment in front of them, will only take that speaker so far. This has been said already. But it is foolish to say that all speakers need 200 watts, and thats it. Amp design far exceeds power. There is no point hooking up a Halcro amp to a Bose cube. Those with speakers less capable of discerning differences in better amps, or that choose not to experiment with better gear and speakers, cannot speak for all speakers and amps in the world. Again YMMV.

Yashu

I think this is for like using your SET amp to power your LSi 15s.

I have said before that it seems "gimmiky" but if it is transparent enough, I could see a use for it. The thing is, as a poster has already said... it would turn your amp into more of a pre, and that makes sense, but that might not be good, especially where the use for this thing makes sense, IE, low power amps and big speakers. Some amps sound their best when there IS an appropriate load on them, and this thing would take that away.

cfrizz

I don't believe anyone said all speakers need 200 watts.

By the same token not everyone is interested in moving on to better gear and speakers. But I firmly believe in getting the best out any ANY gear that they do own.

Those of you that have moved on to higher class gear, good for you. I leave those who are interested in moving up the ladder to you.

I try my best to help those just starting out to maximize & fully utilize the midfi gear that they are interested in purchasing & making sure they hear the full benefit of thier Polk speakers. (especially systems that are geared for HT)

I don't enter into threads where discussion is for highend equipment & try to talk anyone down to midfi equipment. But some insist on entering into midfi discussions & and stating that whatever midfi amp is recommended is TOO much for the gear they have or are thinking of getting.

The purpose should be to help people get the best equipment that will maximize their system to the fullest. Not make judgement calls on what is too much for thier level of gear.

I didn't know that my speakers weren't giving me everything they had until I moved up to more Midfi solid state power. Now that I know, I'm not going back to less. And I'm not interested in getting into higher level equipment. Not everyone is & there is nothing wrong with that.

Many newbies have come in this year & upgraded thier power & have been ecstatic with the results. We all can't be wrong! If they decide to move up the ladder they know where to go & who to talk to in this forum.

But for those who are into the HT scene & want to get the best out of thier systems, I am here to make the best recommendations that I can from my own personal experience & knowledge.

Most of that knowledge I got from recommendations from those of you who have moved on to higher end gear.

snow

venomclan wrote: »

Snow,
How the hell did you put me in the "all amps sound the same" camp? Not my camp. To do a list like yours, here are a few of the amps I owned in the last 3 years.
As for the tire analogy, perhaps you missed my point, perhaps I did not elaborate. Anyway...

I did not say that there is no difference in handling at 70mph with better tires. I was trying to point out that it would be pointless to test and compare high speed (Race) tires, without taking them to the speeds they are rated to perform at. There is no point of putting Z rated tires on an economy subcompact that will never see those speeds. A much less tire will do.

I feel the same with speakers. An amp, or any other equipment in front of them, will only take that speaker so far. This has been said already. But it is foolish to say that all speakers need 200 watts, and thats it. Amp design far exceeds power. There is no point hooking up a Halcro amp to a Bose cube. Those with speakers less capable of discerning differences in better amps, or that choose not to experiment with better gear and speakers, cannot speak for all speakers and amps in the world. Again YMMV.

Actually I was referring to a different list on post# 86

You said this. Watts don't mean $hit.

For most people starting out in mid fi they do. 200wpc represents a number where you can (usally) get the most amount of benefit for the $ spent.

As far as this statement goes.

It is like putting the best race car tires on a Toyota Corolla, you can't tell a difference in performance if you do not exceed 70mph.


I assumed that when you made this statement that you were saying at lower volumes that a larger amp at lower volumes would not make a difference in sound


Even if you dont utilize all the watts that the larger more powerful amp can provide. It will sound better as a general rule than a lesser amp even at very low volumes.

I did enjoy reading your impressions on the different amps mated with different speakers.

REGARDS SNOW