Just when I thought audio made sense.....

24

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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2007
    madmax wrote: »
    but my opinion was formed back when "booster amps" for cars were rampant

    hehe, I used a little Realistic booster back in '89 for a little while. Then, I upgraded to a 'booster EQ'. :D
    Never Forget
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited August 2007
    Bah you need at least 550wpc to get accurate sound according to MF.

    As for db vs watts, we have had that discussion many times, and is always why I say 200wpc isn't a touchstone for power. There are many factors to consider such as your speaker efficiency, distance from the speakers, dynamic range of the material, and how loud you listen. I assume you are jesting with your comments, if not then you have some reading to do.

    The 110db isn't average it is peak, if I recall correctly anything over 100db can cause hearing loss within 15-30mins, at 110db it should be only a few minutes to permanently damage your ears.

    I find it interesting that when stereophile ran this thing at less then 200wpc it overheat and shut down within 18mins. Damn inefficient amps.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited August 2007
    Sound is only good up to 199 watts. One watt more is silly. If the first 199 watts suck then why would you want another one. :D
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited August 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    See if I translated this correctly guys.

    From what I gather, we shouldn't be talking in WPC. Instead we should be talking about decibel level since we hear in decibels & not watts. And the decibel level we like to hear things at is around 110 decibels? Which translates into how many wpc?

    However, after reading your responses & seeing the outrageous price of the thing, it makes better sense (and a whole lot cheaper)to just get an amplifier of 200wpc or more & be done with it!

    The real place where this product comes in is if someone has something like some very nice (insert favorite brand) tube amps that only put out 30wpc or so - that they are completely in love with. So with an average 87db speaker, the amps will start to clip at or before 101db. Most likely dynamics, control, and other things will start to fall apart way before this point.

    Insert this product and get the same sonic signature of your (insert favorite brand) tube amps, but with the wattage to get up into the 107db+ range, or just to have proper dynamics, control, etc. etc. at lower db levels.
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2007
    Oh. Thank you Phuz!

    V, you didn't need to visit a psychic, I am nothing if not consistent!

    Gaara, I'm not interested in reading anything since I wouldn't understand most of it anyhow. I would rather trust my ears.

    Basically what they & I have been saying is that most receiver amplifiers, and lower rated amps don't have the guts that it takes to bring the best out of your speakers at the louder volumes without putting them at risk.

    My own ears told me this 2+years ago when got my Parasound amp.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,039
    edited August 2007
    common_sounds.gif

    110 dB... oy

    SoundchartEnglish.gif
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited August 2007
    Talking ears, now that seems interesting. :)
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited August 2007
    You can achieve 110+ decibels with 1 watt.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited August 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Gaara, I'm not interested in reading anything since I wouldn't understand most of it anyhow. I would rather trust my ears.

    Basically what they & I have been saying is that most receiver amplifiers, and lower rated amps don't have the guts that it takes to bring the best out of your speakers at the louder volumes without putting them at risk.

    This always baffles me but I guess I just come from a different mind set. I know about power ratings and how power relates to db before I bought my first real system over 5 years ago. I guess I just couldn't fathom buying something like an amp without knowing the technical reasons behind why it would improve things.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • venomclan
    venomclan Posts: 2,467
    edited August 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    V, you didn't need to visit a psychic, I am nothing if not consistent!

    My real question for you Cathy is this:

    If there were 2 amps, both rated at 200/8 ohms watts; 1 was $3000 and the other $300, would they sound different to you?
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited August 2007
    dorokusai wrote: »
    You can achieve 110+ decibels with 1 watt.

    You mean with very efficient speakers, or by just letting a system sound like ****?
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited August 2007
    phuz wrote: »
    You mean with very efficient speakers, or by just letting a system sound like ****?

    What do you think I mean Polkhead?
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited August 2007
    dorokusai wrote: »
    What do you think I mean Polkhead?

    I wasn't sure, that's why I asked for clarification.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited August 2007
    phuz wrote: »
    I wasn't sure, that's why I asked for clarification.


    Definetly efficiency homeslice.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited August 2007
    Efficient speakers phuz... Power is power. You can't make it louder by using the same power but sound crappier.

    Edit: Doro beat me...
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited August 2007
    dorokusai wrote: »
    Definetly efficiency homeslice.

    Gotcha. Any recommendations on high efficiency speakers? I can't say I've ever seen a speaker rated that high.

    Other than the mega bucks Avant Garde and even then I think they were 100db...
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited August 2007
    Anything with lots of horns/drivers....
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2007
    :D Yup the difference is that you're a guy & I'm a gal.:D

    I listened to all of you rant & rave about how great your speakers sounded with a "man amp". Was told I would need one to purchase any LSI speakers. So I got one. My ears told me YUP IT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE FOR THE BETTER!

    Now knowing what I hear, why would I care about how it works? I just care that it DOES work! If it hadn't worked I would have come on and called you all a bunch of crazy liars.;)

    I don't need to analyze every little detail or give myself a headache reading technical manuals. (most guys seem to get off on that kind of minutia) I firmly believe in the Keep It Simple Stupid school of thought. It works/It doesn't.

    The only manuals I will read are the manuals that come with the equipment so that I can set it up correctly the first time around. Other than that...FUGEDABOUDIT!:D
    Gaara wrote: »
    This always baffles me but I guess I just come from a different mind set. I know about power ratings and how power relates to db before I bought my first real system over 5 years ago. I guess I just couldn't fathom buying something like an amp without knowing the technical reasons behind why it would improve things.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2007
    Well from what I now know from having gone from a 205wpc amp to a 405 wpc amp is, I can't hear any difference in the sound. Both give my speakers all the power they need to operate at their highest level. The speakers can only perform to their maximum level that they are capable of. They won't go beyond it.

    an analogy that I can understand (A steering wheel will only turn so far. You can step on the gas as much as you want, & yank as hard as you want on the wheel but it won't turn beyond its limit.)

    So with that being said, I will go for the $300.00 amp because 200 watts is 200 watts. Ok V?:D

    venomclan wrote: »
    My real question for you Cathy is this:

    If there were 2 amps, both rated at 200/8 ohms watts; 1 was $3000 and the other $300, would they sound different to you?
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2007
    Thanks, you just gave me an instant headache!:eek: :mad: ;):p:D
    jdhdiggs wrote: »
    Anything with lots of horns/drivers....
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited August 2007
    phuz,do you by chance have links to the reviews you read?
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited August 2007
    phuz the review I saw clearly indicates the amp is going to cover the upstream sonic sig. Maybe its a subjective thing but I really do not see how the original signal is not going to be altered so I would beware thinking its simply going to boost the power and not alter your signal.

    Long live 200 wpc..............oh boy

    RT1
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  • Music Joe
    Music Joe Posts: 459
    edited August 2007
    Odd thing is you can usually find used MF 500 or 550 integrateds below 5 grand.
    Those would be more moveable in the secondary markets.
    "The Web is a monoblog"
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited August 2007
    GV#27 wrote: »
    phuz,do you by chance have links to the reviews you read?


    Here are a couple. I went 8 google pages deep today...

    http://www.shadowaudio.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1222

    http://www.avhub.com.au/NewsArticle.aspx?MagazineID=5&NewsArticleID=184

    reel: I do understand and agree that it might color things a little, and that it is very subjective. The second link I posted states that the difference would be slim to none and has a personal experience to back it up. My ears haven't heard 'em yet so I can't say. I can say that I'd trust MF, and that in my opinion any quality SS amplifier would do just that... amplify and not color. If MF did things right then the superchargers will do that and nothing else.

    What review did you read? I'm interested. Thanks.

    This is highly debatable, but my ears tell me that there is little to no audible difference in comparable solid state models of Rotel, Adcom, B&K, Parasound, etc. amps. They are amps, and nearly transparent in the context of what kind of difference all other parts of a system make. I expect that MF would be one of the most transparent of any amp out there.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited August 2007
    Thanks muchly phuz.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    edited August 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Well from what I now know from having gone from a 205wpc amp to a 405 wpc amp is, I can't hear any difference in the sound. Both give my speakers all the power they need to operate at their highest level. The speakers can only perform to their maximum level that they are capable of. They won't go beyond it.

    an analogy that I can understand (A steering wheel will only turn so far. You can step on the gas as much as you want, & yank as hard as you want on the wheel but it won't turn beyond its limit.)

    So with that being said, I will go for the $300.00 amp because 200 watts is 200 watts. Ok V?:D
    So, Cathy, you don't believe that different amps (made by different companies - both producing the same wpc) would have a different sonic signature / sound quality while utilizing the same speakers?
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited August 2007
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Thanks muchly phuz.


    No prob. The first one I shouldn't have even posted. I thought it was another that I had read. The second I think is good fair info. There are both good and bad things out there. Just goggle the hardware and you can weed through all of the stuff in Deutch and various other languages for the good stuff in English... ;)
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,612
    edited August 2007
    Lot of talk for a product none of us would buy.
    :rolleyes:
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    So with that being said, I will go for the $300.00 amp because 200 watts is 200 watts. Ok V?:D
    I'm sorry, that's incorrect.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2007
    I can't say that 100%. All I know is that I couldn't detect a difference in the sound quality/signature with the 2 powerful amps that I have had.

    You have to remember, I don't swap out equipment all over the place. Once I find something that I like I keep it.

    I am listening to the music, I'm not trying to detect if one amp sounds different from another. So long as I hear all the same details clearly that are in the music that I know should be there with both amps, then I'm happy.
    halo wrote: »
    So, Cathy, you don't believe that different amps (made by different companies - both producing the same wpc) would have a different sonic signature / sound quality while utilizing the same speakers?
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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