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As far as being a fan of innocent until PROVEN guilty, you openly called for the suspension of Michael Vick from the Falcons in this thread citing that Goodall has no balls. Why should he be suspended when he hasn't been proven guilty?
Your statements don't jive.
Michael Vick is obviously guilty in your mind, the court of public opinion, despite not being proven guilty in a court of law. There's no video of Vick killing dogs that we know of. So, we could play this off as a conspiracy against him until the ends of the earth. Ignoring all of the facts in Bond's case is just as intentionally ignorant as ignoring all of the facts in Vick's case.
No inconsistency. If we found sterioids at a home Barry Bonds owns and fequented then we would have some proof, would we not? If there was an individual that said he witnessed or actually administered the steroids then there would be some proof, although we could question the integrity and/or motives of the claimant. With Vick we have both. With Bonds we have neither."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Also with Vick....I don't like him...but I was calling for Goodell to follow his own policies...if you suspend pacman with no conviction, then do the same for your "star"."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
I do believe he, and any other cheaters, should be kicked out of the MLB and they should be stripped of all of their records.
Will you void the records of pitcher's who threw the "spitter" and never got caught, just because you believe they did so?"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
That IS debatable. By your standards...maybe...but others may disagree. I doubt that in a court of law he could be convicted of taking steroids without some proof of the actual act. (regardless of what he is being investigated for)
There is NO undisputed, substantiated proof that he took steroids. It may be out there, but until someone can prove he did, it is still all speculation.
As I said, I could care less about Bonds specifically. My greater issue is that we as a society have become more accepting of finding guilt without proof...whether in sports or in the court of public opinion (legal talking heads make me sick). It seems more and more we are assuming one is guilty and it is their responsibilty to prove they are not. It's easy to find anyone guilty of something in our speculative minds. I am now and always will be a fan of innocent until PROVEN guilty
The IRS has been doing this for years...how do they get away with it?:DPioneer Elite VSX-53, Polk RT800i fronts, Polk CS400i center, FX500i surround, Velodyne sub -
No inconsistency. If we found sterioids at a home Barry Bonds owns and fequented then we would have some proof, would we not? If there was an individual that said he witnessed or actually administered the steroids then there would be some proof, although we could question the integrity and/or motives of the claimant. With Vick we have both. With Bonds we have neither.
You said you're a fan of people being innocent until proven guilty. I am a fan of that as well, however I wasn't aware of the MLB and NFL court system.
You want Vick out of football despite the cold hard fact he hasn't been convicted of any crimes. How is that different than wanting Bonds out of baseball? Why was he brought in front of a Grandy Jury? You don't get called in front of a Grand Jury to testify because there isn't any evidence of your involvement in a crime. Why is there an pending indictment for perjury?
Why would the NFL be just in your mind canning Vick over image issues be any different than the MLB canning Bonds over image issues? It's not like this is a small story.
Either way, neither Vick nor Bonds have been proven guilty of anything in a court of law. I fail to see what that has to do with anything as it pertains to this discussion or the Vick discussion.Will you void the records of pitcher's who threw the "spitter" and never got caught, just because you believe they did so?
:rolleyes:
It's not like some jackass stood up and pointed at Bonds one day and said "Hey, steroid abuser," and the masses just uniformly agreed with him.
The Grand Jury was not going for convictions of the players, they were going after suppliers. It's just like the kids that get snagged with weed. They get immunity/charge reductions if they testify against their respective dealers.
Barry Bonds wasn't called to testify in front of a Grand Jury against BALCO because he didn't have anything to do with steroids. -
Hasn't Barry already admitted to using products that contained steroids (Cream/Clear)? How then is he not guilty of using steroids when he admitted to it... Maybe I'm missing something...
There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
My rationale was simply that there is some verifiable evidence against Vick and none for Bonds. Bonds is still merely speculation. If he is guilty show me something besides "he must have done so".
Ever been on a grand jury panel? I have. They are very often fishing expeditions. The pending indictment is also just speculation at this point in time. If they had enought to indict...it would have happened already.
MLB has a hard and fast rule...NOW. Test positive and your gone for **** days depending on the factors. Their rules are pretty cut and dry as negotiated by the owners and players. If he tests positive for steroids then he will be suspended.
NFL has NOW started suspending for actions considered to be detrimental to the game. MLB has no such history and/or rule. I stated that Goodall should follow his own rules. Vick can come back after his suspension is over and can continue his career regardless of the outcome. Even if convicted he can come back and play. (after time served if any ie: Jamal Lewis). No one is saying he is out of football forever, just being punished as others have been.
You want Bonds totally banished for something that is speculation (but proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to many) when according to the rules of thier league he hasn't even committed a punishable offense. Of course if speculation is the criteria then many past and current players should be stricken from the record books...even if there is no proof."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Hasn't Barry already admitted to using products that contained steroids (Cream/Clear)? How then is he not guilty of using steroids when he admitted to it... Maybe I'm missing something...
He said it may have been but he had no knowledge if it was in fact steroids. He only admitted that it could have happened...not that it did happen."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
I don't know, it's still pretty week but in the end, if baseball hadn't drug their feet and make it illegal and start testing in the mid 90's, we wouldn't even have this discussion.
To me, it's MLB's fault first, Barry's second. And yes, Barry cheated.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
To me, it's MLB's fault first, Barry's second. And yes, Barry cheated.
To be very honest with you...it simply doesn't matter to me. I didn't care that Hank broke Babe's record or that any record for anything has been broken (unless of course I own the record). Tiger may or may not break Jack's record, Manning broke Marino's record...So what? I will never lose a second of sleep whether they are legit or not...as they are only snapshots in time that will fade away...eventually. (who's record did Babe exceed?) To some the record is important and to some HOW it was obtained is important. While sports records are interesting...they are just tidbits for discussion...nothing more."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
That's a somewhat bleak world view Shack:D
I trust you're not having an existential crisis:pI never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
Well, I'd agree to a point. To me, the records are completely meaningless, but how the athlete got the record is everything. Gretzky was great because of the way he played, not his records. Same with Rice or any of the other greats. To me, the only thing that matters is how they get them.
That said, it is sad that more people are paying attention to Barry, Lindsey, Brittney, or whatever airhead or dillhole of the week than the laws our representatives are passing (or not) and our future presidential candidates.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Innocent till proven guilty. That 's a noble thought & shoud be the prevailing attitude. Things just don't work as they should though. But, tell that to any poor guy that had a girl yell "RAPE". Now it's guilty till you can prove other wise. In the end it doesn't even matter...the guys life is ruined even if he's found innocent. That poor guys goose is cooked befor he knew what hit him. As far as Bonds...guilty!!!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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My rationale was simply that there is some verifiable evidence against Vick and none for Bonds. Bonds is still merely speculation. If he is guilty show me something besides "he must have done so".
Vick still has not been found guilty in any court of law, which was the point I was making.
"Innocent until proven guilty." It's merely a phrase that our legal system is based upon; however, there are times when you have to use reason and common sense and open your eyes to the obvious.
You were able to do it for Vick, becuase you don't like him, but not for Bonds, because you don't care. That's interesting.
Your expectations for evidence in this case are completely unreasonable. It's 2007. He's not going to have steroids in his house. He won't be caught dead with a needle in his harm. You want the needle, the man, and the drug in the same room before your brain allows you to say "He's a cheater." Pete Rose was never found guilty of a crime either, maybe he should be in the Hall of Fame. -
I don't care who gets records. I do care that the person/team who gets them isn't a cheater.
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zombie boy 2000 wrote: »That's a somewhat bleak world view Shack:D
I trust you're not having an existential crisis:p
I enjoy sports for the competition of the moment and the personal achievement if I participate. Then it is over. Victory is fleeting and even championships are just momentary blips to be erased as soon as the next game/season starts. Regardless of the outcome of any game or event, time marches on. Win it all...lose them all...the sun still comes up the next day and we go about the business of living. If one takes sports any more serious than simply reveling in the accomplishment and the competition then they are destined to be defeated. Even the greatness of MJ is but a passing memory to some and LJ is the new king.
I enjoy sports as I have watched, particpated and coached since I was 7 years old (46 years). I watch people who's very being is consumed by whether a bunch of teenagers win or lose a game or adults who's worth is based on how much a "star" their child is. Which of course leads to children that throw tantrums when they don't win, regardless of how much better their opponent is. I enjoy sports...a lot...I'm just not consumed by sports."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
I hear ya loud and clear...
and agree with you on all fronts.
I was just having a bit o' fun with the "it's all meaningless in the end" angle.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
Demiurge wrote:Vick still has not been found guilty in any court of law, which was the point I was making.
I have never used the court of law as my standard in this discussion...I simply ask for proof...not speculation.Demiurge wrote:however, there are times when you have to use reason and common sense and open your eyes to the obvious.
It's obviously not that obvious to everyone. Probably doesn't mean actually.Demiurge wrote:You were able to do it for Vick, becuase you don't like him, but not for Bonds, because you don't care. That's interesting.
The facts in the Vick situation are more clear and less open to speculation, IMO. Again my argument was for consistancy in penalty within the confines of the NFL. The process was more interesting than the outcome.Demiurge wrote:Your expectations for evidence in this case are completely unreasonable. It's 2007. He's not going to have steroids in his house. He won't be caught dead with a needle in his harm. You want the needle, the man, and the drug in the same room before your brain allows you to say "He's a cheater."
My expections are simply if he did it, prove it, by evidence, not supposition.Demiurge wrote:Pete Rose was never found guilty of a crime either, maybe he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Pete was convicted of tax evasion and served time. His exclusion from the HOF has to do with breaking the rules of the sport (which he has confessed to doing) not comitting a punishable crime."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
I have never used the court of law as my standard in this discussion...I simply ask for proof...not speculation.
Really? Then why is Michael Vick GUILTY until PROVEN INNOCENT? You don't have proof he did a damn thing, only allegations and accusations. Dead dogs /= guilty Michael Vick. I agree he's guilty as all get out, but I'm just showing your inconsistencies.It's obviously not that obvious to everyone. Probably doesn't mean actually.
Not obvious to the oblivious, apparently.The facts in the Vick situation are more clear and less open to speculation, IMO. Again my argument was for consistancy in penalty within the confines of the NFL. The process was more interesting than the outcome.
Probably doesn't mean actually, remember?My expections are simply if he did it, prove it, by evidence, not supposition.
There is evidence. You're ignoring all of the Grand Jury testimony. Was I supposed to post it all here? I'd be an absolute MORON to believe that a company (BALCO) is just giving their clients steroids and telling them it's flax seed oil.
BALCO's chemist, Patrick Arnold, stated that Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield were given a substance called "The Clear", which is a cream steroid. He didn't personally witness them using it. Why were they even given the substance in the first place? When you go to a doctor do they give you illegal drugs and tell you it's aspirin? The answer is no there, and it's no in Bond's case. Anyone with a reasonable head on their shoulders knows that Bonds and Sheffield got exactly what they asked for.
Somehow, there's no evidence there for you.
Sorry, Shack, no dead dogs. Just testimony from BALCOs chemist, Bonds' mistress, and thousands of dollars in cash exchanges between Bonds, his trainer, and BALCO.
Nothing amiss there. Completely innocent.Pete was convicted of tax evasion and served time. His exclusion from the HOF has to do with breaking the rules of the sport (which he has confessed to doing) not comitting a punishable crime.
Intentionally missing the point. :rolleyes:
Pete Rose wasn't proven to have bet on games, but was kicked out of the MLB and the Hall of Fame PRIOR to his admission of guilt for his book because they suspected he was.
There's way more evidence on Bonds than there ever was on Rose, who was also seen to be guilty as sin before he finally admitted to it in order to sell books. -
I am very consistant. My position nor opinions have changed.
I miss no points....just don't happen to agree."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Don't mess with the spitter or brushback throwers. Those guys ARE the game. Plus, Barry Bonds will never have the raw sexuality, mystique, and magnetism of a Hoyt Wilhelm, or a Sal Maglie.
I don't think I screwed anybody with the Magilla thing, the theme song has been going around in my head too since I printed that, along with "Top Cat, the indisputable leader of the gang.......He's the top, He's the King........." I wish this **** would stop.
Zombie's tossing some beauties, no? Never noticed before. Good man. -
"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Need a shave?
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Hmmmm...the way some people are acting, it is as if there was no "cheating" in professional sports before the arrival of steroids.
I guarantee you, wherever and whenever there is big money to be made, someone is going to be there to "cheat" to get it. Why are some people making out MLB to be this pristine, historically pure sport that has only recently been "tainted" by steroid use? In the past, games have been fixed, umpires have taken a little under-the-batting-mat cash to make questionable calls, and pitchers have been "encouraged" to throw a little "softball" to a particular hitter. How do we really know that all of the pre-steroid era MLB records are "real" and completely untainted by bribes, threats of violence, or other forms of performance "enhancement"?
Really, what would most of us do if we knew we would be frequently going up to bat against some juiced-up, roided-up pitcher throwing 400 m.p.h. balls? Would you want to even the score? Would you be tempted to go even further and try to get a little "edge" over your worthy opponent?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Hmmmm...the way some people are acting, it is as if there was no "cheating" in professional sports before the arrival of steroids.
Not at all. Why is cheating in quotes? Steroids are illegal unless prescribed by a doctor for medical reasons. The MLB didn't have a rule against it, but they didn't need one. It's implied by the fact it's illegal. They don't have a rule against murder, either, but I'm sure it's frowned upon, being illegal and all.
The MLB does have culpability by not testing for it, but they didn't inject any of these athletes either.
All of the athletes wrapped up in this could be charged with crimes if caught red handed, but it's very hard to prosecute since it's hard to prove after the fact.
This is why all of the evidence against Bonds is he said she said in conjunction with the fat money trail of cash transactions, which he justifies because he "makes $17 Million."
Aside from the personal health issues the athletes will have to deal with, it makes all of the honest athletes look bad.
I just find it sad that your solution to cheaters is to become a cheater. -
Why is cheating in quotes?
Because the athletes who are "juicing" are really not fooling anyone about what they are doing. Furthermore, in the grand scheme of things, whether or not a MLB athlete is using steroids or not is not important. They are just entertainers...no more no less. Obviously, the fans are not staying away in droves because of this "cheating". I would not be a bit surprised if MLB athletes are not taking steroids with the under-the-table "encouragement" of club management and owners. Juicing=enhanced performance=more thrills for the PAYING spectators=more $$$$.I just find it sad that your solution to cheaters is to become a cheater.
You misunderstood my comment. I offered no "solution" as you put it. I mearly stated that I understood the motivation for some players to use steroids if they want to be competitive. The real solution is for MLB management and owners to "crack down" and prohibit and penalize steroid and other illegal performance enhancing drug use. However, I know that that will never happen because, as I said before, Juicing=enhanced performance=more thrills for the PAYING spectators=more $$$$.
Sit back, relax, and enjoy the steroid enhanced "show".Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Of course there was cheating in sports before this guy. I'm not acting funny and this **** doesn't keep me up at night cause I don't care much for pro sports at all.
The simple truth of the whole thing though, is that this guy doesn't belong in the same sentence, no less the same record book, as Henry Aaron, the greatest home run hitter of all-time.
And on the whole I really would rather pay to see real gorillas play. Orangs would probably be monster superstars. Figure out a way to keep whatever they decide to start throwing on the field with plexiglass screens, and you may have a all new America's favorite. Retractable portions of screen, left down for 5 minutes or so that the players can throw back, just may deter fans from throwing batteries and snowballs at the players. -
George Grand wrote: »Of course there was cheating in sports before this guy. I'm not acting funny and this **** doesn't keep me up at night cause I don't care much for pro sports at all.
The simple truth of the whole thing though, is that this guy doesn't belong in the same sentence, no less the same record book, as Henry Aaron, the greatest home run hitter of all-time.
And on the whole I really would rather pay to see real gorillas play. Orangs would probably be monster superstars. Figure out a way to keep whatever they decide to start throwing on the field with plexiglass screens, and you may have a all new America's favorite. Retractable portions of screen, left down for 5 minutes or so that the players can throw back, just may deter fans from throwing batteries and snowballs at the players.
I think this is the best idea ever! There could be all kinds of fun new names for types of pitches....The "dookieball":D being one of them... -
I would just like to throw out there that NO amount of money would influence me to take a drug that made my "package" smaller. What the hell kind of trade off is that?
Money for nothing?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
eh, he's a millionaire packing a set of peanuts.....who gives a ****?
