Upgradeitis. Need some advice on Cinenova Grande

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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,259
    edited July 2007
    Ding, Ding, Ding.............Round two!
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Would you guys TRY to be consistent??? You all float in whatever direction the wind blows when it comes to amps. No wonder poor newbies get confused!

    Well, if someone asks you what car they should buy, you'd say to get something that has at least 4 litres of displacement? The "200WPC minimum" BS is getting old to be honest.
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited July 2007
    What he said :D

    200 wpc is a guideline and often times a good recommendation, not a rule. Many good amps are less wattage, higher current reserves, and better sounding.

    All amplifiers add some type of coloration/change to the sound. It's just the nature of the beast.

    Cables do make a difference.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2007
    IMO when it comes to power I will take quality over quantity any day of the week.

    I think the 200wpc is overkill in most situations, I know from experience that with my system 50wpc will do me fine except for peaks at my personal reference levels. But then again your mileage may vary.

    The Cinenova does pair lots of brute strength with good sound quality, and I have yet to find a amp to best it...but I also have yet to try a amp that retails for more then it.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited July 2007
    Sami wrote: »
    The "200WPC minimum" BS is getting old to be honest.

    Didn't establish that "the more the merrier?" I'd say 400WPC is recommended

    I would.

    :)
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,020
    edited July 2007
    I tend to agree with the overkill thing.That cinova is way more than you need and it's not exactly wife friendly given it's size.Start with a used adcom,carver,B&K, for the front 3 channels.Either of those can be had used for 3-500 bucks and can be re-sold for the same if you don't like it.
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,020
    edited July 2007
    ....and...um...don't piss off Cathy,she can kick all of your ****'s.......:D
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited July 2007
    tonyb wrote: »
    ....and...um...don't piss off Cathy,she can kick all of your ****'s.......:D

    She'll have to get in line, take a number, and wait her turn ;)
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited July 2007
    It's better to have & not need, rather than need & not have.

    We have also already discussed the quality over quantity issue. Would you care to put names to these so called quality amps Gaara?

    Most amps I mention are considered quality amps, since I have personally had them. And I don't buy nonquality gear when it comes to this topic. Most are widely reccomended on this board which is where I got all but one of the names from.

    The bottom line which you guys don't want to admit to is that 200wpc will get the job done for ALL speakers no matter what anyone's personal reference level is. They won't hurt anything and can stay with any system no matter what other upgrades you undertake later on.

    Oh & DKG, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
    Gaara wrote: »
    IMO when it comes to power I will take quality over quantity any day of the week.

    I think the 200wpc is overkill in most situations, I know from experience that with my system 50wpc will do me fine except for peaks at my personal reference levels. But then again your mileage may vary.

    The Cinenova does pair lots of brute strength with good sound quality, and I have yet to find a amp to best it...but I also have yet to try a amp that retails for more then it.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    They won't hurt anything

    Hmmm, wallet? It's not whether it hurts or not, it's simply that 200wpc is not required. Does it hurt anything besides your wallet? Maybe because with a requirement like that you're automatically taking out the amp with less rated power that actually might sound better.
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  • wingnut4772
    wingnut4772 Posts: 7,519
    edited July 2007
    I agree that 200 watts per channel is largely sufficient for most set ups but when I added the EQ Cinenova to my LSI set up (from a 200 wpc Outlaw) it was a revelation. Night and day. But it sounded good before as well. Just not as smooth, clear and LOUD with no sweat.
    Sharp Elite 70
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    Polk Atrium 7s on the patio just to keep my foot in the door.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2007
    wingnut4772 wrote: »
    I agree that 200 watts per channel is largely sufficient for most set ups but when I added the EQ Cinenova to my LSI set up (from a 200 wpc Outlaw) it was a revelation. Night and day. But it sounded good before as well. Just not as smooth, clear and LOUD with no sweat.

    And it would have sounded just as much better even if it was "just" 200wpc or less. :p

    Even though I haven't had the pleasure to try one myself, I'm sure it's a wonderful amplifier. I just don't feel it's the right amp for the task in hand unless the OP is going to upgrade the rest of the system soon. He knows his financial situation, he is the one making the decision, I just am worried he might not get what he wants from this upgrade and is left upgrading the rest of the gear and getting in trouble with the Mrs. :)
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2007
    Cfrizz,

    A perfect example of this would be the Parasound Halo A23 and the 5ch counterpart the A52. I have owned both of these amps with the power hungry LSis and have been very happy. They were very dynamic but still retained their details, did well with quite and loud passages alike, and had very punchy bass. Both of these amps are 125wpc and are both recommended on these forums along with the rest of the Parasound line.

    More examples of standard solid state amps less then 200wpc recommended on these forums would include: Rotel RB-1070/RMB-1095, ATI 150*/180*, Odyssey Audio Stratos/Monos, B&K 125.2/125.7 and Adcom. I have had experience with one version of all of these amps except for the Odyssey.

    I personally am a big fan of chip amps as well as newer digital amps like class-T and ice power. Many T-amps are less then 10wpc but sound much larger then they should. Given my experience with these amps has been with only music and I would never recommend them for HT, but for music they are stellar.

    These lower power T-amps would include: Sonic Impact T-amp/Super-T, Trends Audio TD-10/TD-10.1, Red Wine Audio Clari-T/Signature 30/Signature 70, and Teac AL700P.

    For chip amps there are many different brands with different configurations which include the LM3886/parallel LM3886/BPA200 chips, LM3875, LM4780 and GB150D-SKA. I have had experience with the LM3886 and LM3875 and soon to be a BPA200 amp.

    New digital amps would include Nuforce Ref 8/Ref 9, many brands using the Hypex UCD180 module, many amps using the lower power ice modules including PS-Audio Trio, Bel Canto M300/S300, Red Dragon Amp-1 and EVS 100m. I have tried the Trio and the Amp-1.

    I decided not to cover tube amps as I have not had any experience with them and therefore would just be going off other’s impressions.

    So there are some amps that I would consider “quality” yet don’t need to be over 200wpc. The solid state ones get recommended a lot while the others I feel will catch on in time.

    Jared
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • zombie boy 2000
    zombie boy 2000 Posts: 6,641
    edited July 2007
    I had a 35wpc Monarcy SM-70 Pro that sounded "larger" and had more presence than the 130wpc Rotel RB980 that it replaced. Plain and simple and no A/B comparos needed. Add to that the fact they were both mated to 4ohm 87db speakers, than you really have a case for quality over quanity.
    I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2007
    IMO I think many people mistake the switch from a lower power amp to a higher power one as making an improvement, when it really is going from a poor amp to a good one which makes the improvement.

    And I forgot the Nelson Pass line as well as his First Watt line. Gotta love the pure Class A Alephs. Speaking of Class A doesn't the low power Monarchy Audio units garner good reviews around here?

    One more thing, if you have efficient speakers going high power may not be a good idea. I would much rather have a very low power clean amp like a Clari-T at 6wpc to power a pair of 95db+ efficient speakers. In this situation a high power amp would be a poor choice.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2007
    Damn it zombie, you beat me by 1 min again.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • zombie boy 2000
    zombie boy 2000 Posts: 6,641
    edited July 2007
    I'm sneaky, sneaky.
    I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited July 2007
    It might hurt the wallet once, but then you've got what you need & don't have to worry about it again for years to come.

    It will only hurt those of you who are incessant upgraders. Because while it might be nice to get back all the money you invested, in todays world of checking used prices for stuff it is not a given you will get all your money back when you sell it.

    If you are single with no other responsibilities, go for it. However, he is a married man with far more important things to spend his money on.

    It is may not be required right now, but I try & obviously he is trying to take future considerations in to account.

    This is the main difference between me & everyone else on this board. You all just get the bare minimum just so you have an excuse to upgrade later on. I alway practice & preach getting everything you need now, even if it cost more up front so that you will be all set for years to come.

    While I understand that it is fun, to constantly upgrade it is not practical, especially if you have more important responsibilities.

    Instead of just telling Sab that his choice of amplifier would work just fine no matter what, you immediately tell him he should upgrade his speakers instead. That wasn't the question he asked. He told you he was keeping his speakers since both he & his WIFE like them & still you persist in trying to dissuade him from his choice.

    Sab's choice of amp will work PERIOD! It is not up to us to tell him that it really isn't necessary for his particular setup. Just because some of you think it too much power or too much money.

    My amp isn't necessary for my system either, but it sounds outstanding which is the only thing that IS necessary for me or anyone else.
    Sami wrote: »
    Hmmm, wallet? It's not whether it hurts or not, it's simply that 200wpc is not required. Does it hurt anything besides your wallet? Maybe because with a requirement like that you're automatically taking out the amp with less rated power that actually might sound better.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,220
    edited July 2007
    He should get tubes




















    J/K :D couldn't resist

    Right on Cathy.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Instead of just telling Sab that his choice of amplifier would work just fine no matter what, you immediately tell him he should upgrade his speakers instead. That wasn't the question he asked. He told you he was keeping his speakers since both he & his WIFE like them & still you persist in trying to dissuade him from his choice.

    If he likes his speakers, he's better off sticking to the gear he has now. There is nothing wrong there. Will he get improvement with the new amp, 99% sure he does, but if he truly wants to improve the sound of the system that money is much better spent differently. I just feel this is a situation where he has the itch to get a new toy and is restricted by the WAF so he wants a new amp with the money available.

    Nothing wrong with getting the amp but if he isn't planning to upgrade the rest of the system anytime soon, that money is better spent on less expensive amp (IMO 2ch) and saving the rest. It will buy more and better gear when the time is right.
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited July 2007
    H9's right - he should get tubes. Tubes solve everything ;)
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • Skynut
    Skynut Posts: 2,967
    edited July 2007
    I think he should buy the amp he wants. If he doesn't like what he hears he can decide what needs to go and what needs to stay; if he gets a good quality over powered amp then he knows it can stay and something else can go.
    I like the idea of having more power than I need. I also like to know what I think is my "weak link", it gives me something to look foreward to buying when funds permit.
    Skynut
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  • zombie boy 2000
    zombie boy 2000 Posts: 6,641
    edited July 2007
    But that's the problem....
    so many people are equating more power with "better". And from my experience, that simply isn't the case. If it were, we would all shell out the ducets for some 400 watt Pro amps and call it a day.

    Plus... it seems in these discussions, that a speaker's sensivity is rarely mentioned. Would we still be pushing 200 wpc minimum to pair off with 99db horns?

    That being said... I find it highly ironic that one of the few women of the Forum waves the flag of power and brute force, while all these other MEN sing the praises of Flea-watts and SET amps:D
    I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited July 2007
    No Sami, you are projecting what YOU would want to do onto him.
    He clearly stated what he wanted to do:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cfrizz
    There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to powering speakers! He will know that all of his speakers are getting all the power they need to sound their best & he will have a top notch amp already in place when he does decide to upgrade his speakers.


    This is the approach I want to take. I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with the existing speakers especially for HT for quite awhile.

    By the way, thanks for all the input. I kind of have my heart set on the Cinenova but I'm willing to rethink that purchase. (I'm going to try to find a used one by the way 4K is alot for an amp) The main point of this exercise is to get as much out of the existing setup as possible and I don't think I'm doing that with just the AVR I have now.

    Trying to work new speakers would be difficult to pull off. I hassled my old lady about the RTI's for about a year before finally buying them. If I even mentioned anything about speaker upgrade right now she'd have me shot
    The reason she's open to the amp is that she was genuinely impressed with the difference the Elite made when I swapped out my old HTIB Onkyo AVR. On top of that I walk a fine line when It comes to Speakers that are cosmetically pleasing (her words) so the RTI's are it for now.

    He IS happy with his current gear he just wants to add a Cinenova amp, which his wife will definately notice the improvement to ALL THIER speakers. He didn't say a word about wanting to just improve his 2 channel sound.

    Once again you are taking a minimalist approach just to have an excuse to do further upgrades later on. Something that he has said his wife would be BS about with good reason!

    Again stop putting YOUR priorities & wishes into HIS plans.

    Sami wrote: »
    If he likes his speakers, he's better off sticking to the gear he has now. There is nothing wrong there. Will he get improvement with the new amp, 99% sure he does, but if he truly wants to improve the sound of the system that money is much better spent differently. I just feel this is a situation where he has the itch to get a new toy and is restricted by the WAF so he wants a new amp with the money available.

    Nothing wrong with getting the amp but if he isn't planning to upgrade the rest of the system anytime soon, that money is better spent on less expensive amp (IMO 2ch) and saving the rest. It will buy more and better gear when the time is right.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2007
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Again stop putting YOUR priorities & wishes into HIS plans.

    Pot, this is kettle calling.

    Rounds over folks. :)
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited July 2007
    But everyone can read that my sensible common sense priorieties coincide with his quite nicely!:D
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • venomclan
    venomclan Posts: 2,467
    edited July 2007
    I suggest getting the Bose system and call it a day. :)
    V
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  • sabotg
    sabotg Posts: 126
    edited July 2007
    Whoa. Wasn't this thing at like 20 posts yesterday. :eek: I didn't mean to stir the pot here. Thank you to everyone for all your input. Cfrizz I'll just move in with you and we can close this post :D
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2007
    sabotg wrote: »
    I'm sure the existing speakers would benefit from the extra power but I'm not sure how much. My other issue is convincing the little lady that this purchase will really make a difference.:rolleyes: If anyone has gone this route with a similar setup I'd be happy to hear from you. Thanks!!!!

    I thought he was originally asking for our opinions on how much of a difference the upgrade would make?

    Me and Sami both seem to agree that the upgrade cost wont justify the benefit, and going with a less expensive amp with other upgrades will be more cost effective.

    Cfrizz, you seem to be stressing the point that he does not want to upgrade the speakers, so I was focusing on amps that are good bang for the buck with his speakers. I would hate to pay $2000 for an amp when I knew that for $1000 I could have had something that would sound just as good.

    If he is dead set on purchasing new then do it once and be done with it, but the comment was made that 4k was a little much for the Cinenova so he would probably buy used. Buying used is great because he could purchase something now that would work great and a few years away if he upgrades the speakers and wants to sell the amp he won't lose much money.

    Bottom line the Cinenova is a great performer and he will be happy with it. IMO he could get a cheaper amp used that will sound just as good with the setup and use the rest of the money for something else. If he ever feels the need to upgrade that option is available.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited July 2007
    I also told him there were other options in the 200wpc region that would be cheaper especially if he went used. And I told him from the outset that an amp would make a big difference.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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