integrated amplifiers
ninerbj
Posts: 870
Is there any pro's or con's to an integrated amplifier vs. the separate amp-pre combo? (other than space constrictions of course)
"she had the body of Venus, with arms."
Post edited by ninerbj on
Comments
-
No connects with the integrated, can make for short signal paths. Be careful of cheap parts and integrated circuitry instead of discreet, how is the power supply(s) isolated from the signal paths?? more convenient, some hi end integrated amps have their power supplies located in a seperate box. If an integrated goes down your out of business until repaired/replaced.
Seperates need connects, their added cost and possible signal loss through the connections, but each piece is designed to perform only one function, which when done correctly can sound very nice. Obviously if one piece breaks down only it needs to be fixed and you may have something around to use until then.
Off the top but a few things to consider.
RT1 -
Bottom line:
Sound wise -- you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between separates and a good int. amp in similar price range. As RT said, be careful about buying an int. amp with mediocre parts, regardless of the big brand name.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
The only problem I had with the integrated amps that I've owned is the need for more power. Most are 100wpc or less. That's fine if you have fairly efficient speakers, but if you have some power hungry giants, you will find yourself wanting a separate monster amp.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
-
I think there are some nice mid to hi end integrated amplifiers that are worth a look. Separates probably sound just as good or better, but are rather inconvenient. In addition to finding ones that "match" each other well (sonically and asthetically), interconnects, spacing, etc. are drawbacks.
Also, I really like that most newer integrateds have remote control capability. I would check out some offerings from Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Music Hall, Krell, NAD, etc. if you are potentially interested in an integrated.Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850 -
Intrergrated should give you the audio and video connections you should need and with preamps out you can externally amp your speakers.engtaz
I love how music can brighten up a bad day. -
You can buy more integrated amp for the money than you can with seperates. The NAD c372 is a hard bargain to beat, for instance. Jolida makes Tube hybrid integrateds for a good price.
With many integrateds, you get the ability to use it as either a pre or a power amp by itself. This means that you could use it as a bootstrap to seperates later.
I am a big integrated fan, they are a good place to start when you want to dip your toes into the true high end. -
I'm gonna be different. To me, integrated sucks. Separates rule for 2channel musical fidelity.
End result as to what hits your ears.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I think being different is great but to say that integrated amplifiers "suck" is a bit much.
If that's the case then Arcam, Cambridge Audio, Conrad Johnson, Dynaco, Jolida, Krell, Musical Fidelity & NAD just to name a few, are not worthy of your ownership?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Sorry Mark, this is what I should have said. I've tried many, but none that you listed. Besides, I'm a 2 channel guy. Lost intrest in multi channel a while back.treitz3 wrote:To me, integrated sucks.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I understand, no problem and no reference to HT here.
The bar for me in regards to a properly executed IA would be F1Nuts' Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista. Just as an example alone, if it didn't change your opinion of the design, I would be suprised. I've also found some real gems in the IA world with NAD and Cambridge Audio.
I believe the IA approach can be done very well, not only in the past but even now. Can it be poorly executed and designed? No doubt and hopefully you'll get some ears on some cool IA's someday....until then, turn it up.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Integrated amps are 2 channel only. The better ones give up nothing to separates.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
No ****?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
-
Sorry Mark, this is what I should have said. I've tried many, but none that you listed. Besides, I'm a 2 channel guy. Lost intrest in multi channel a while back.
Dude, you do realize that like 99.9% of the time, an integrated is 2 channel, don't you? :rolleyes:
Not that there aren't more, but the only multi-channel integrated amp I know of currently on the market is made by Vincent Audio, and Yamaha used to have one, the DSP-A1.
Actually, I wish more brands would manufacture such a beast by dropping the nasty tuner sections from an AVR.
-
Integrated amps are 2 channel only. The better ones give up nothing to separates.
Damned! You beat me by 2 or 3 minutes Jesse!
-
I'm pretty sure we all know what we're talking about here, or is this school?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
-
School apparently. Guess I never paid attention to the definition of integrated. I thought that was where you integrated, and put things together. Like an AVR.I'm pretty sure we all know what we're talking about here, or is this school?
Separates rule for me on 2 channel.
I'm ripped [good times], so when I wake up I'll figure out what's going on.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I've also found some real gems in the IA world with NAD and Cambridge Audio.
Which ones specifically?
That new NAD C325BEE looks interesting. They now claim it has some "trickle down" upgrades from the Master Series M3.
I can't really link it cause of the way it is set up, but here is the copy and paste:
Power Amp C352 Stereo Integrated Amplifier C320BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier C325BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier
Continuous average power output into 8ohms 2 x 80W (19.03dBW) 50W (17dBW) 50W (17dBW)
Rated distortion (THD 20Hz-20kHz) 0.03% 0.03% 0.02%
Clipping power (max cont. power/channel) 85W (19.05dBW) 68W (18dBW) 68W (18dBW)
IHF dynamic headroom at 8ohms 1.5dB +3.4dB +3.4dB
IHF dynamic power 8 ohms 115W (20.61dBW) 110W (20.41dBW) 110W (20.41dBW)
4 ohms 185W (22.67dBW) 160W (22.04dBW) 160W (22.04dBW)
2 ohms 240W (23.80dBW) 210W (23.2dBW) 210W (23.2dBW)
Damping factor >150 >160 >160
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz ±0.3dB ±0.2dB
3Hz/70kHz -3dB ±0.3dB ±0.1dB
Input impedance R and C -3dB 20kohm/ 470pF 20k ohm / 470pF
Input sensitivity (for rated output into 8 ohms) 770mV 630mV 730mV
Voltage gain <0.03% 29dB 29dB
Signal to noise ratio, A-weighted ref. 1W >100dB 100dB 100dB
ref. rated power >120dB 117dB 117dB
Bridged (Monophonic) Mode C352 Stereo Integrated Amplifier C320BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier C325BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier
Continuous average power output into 8ohms
IHF dynamic headroom at 8ohms
IHF dynamic power 8 ohms
4 ohms
Physical Specification C352 Stereo Integrated Amplifier C320BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier C325BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier
Dimensions (W×H×D) Imperial 17 1/8 x 3 15/16 x 11 7/16 17 1/8 x 3 15/16 x 11 7/16\ 17 1/8 x 3 15/16 x 11 7/16”
Metric 435 x 100 x 290mm 435 x 100 x 290mm 435 x 100 x 290mm
Gross Dimensions (W×H×D) Imperial
Metric
Net Weight Imperial 15.45lb 14.33 lbs 17.6lbs
Metric 7.01kg 6.5kg 8.0kg
Shipping Weight Imperial 19lb 16.98 lbs 19.8lbs
Metric 8.62kg 7.7kg 9.0kg
Here is the page to get to it -
http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers
- then check the "compare this product" blocks on the C352, C320BEE, and C325BEE.
Note the C325 actually weighs more than the C352 now, as well as having slightly lower distortion specs..;) -
Damned! You beat me by 2 or 3 minutes Jesse!
Great minds think alike.
That Master Series M3 looks like a nice piece. I'd like to hear it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Yes, but NAD changed the beautiful cabinet, no green button...........
I see entirely too many new members throwing this "sucks" word around about gear. There is very little audio that "sucks", I find by far good and better in the things we talk about around these haunts.
Besides, Nobody likes their baby called ugly. Well, there is always an exception.......Blose...
RT1 -
Stereophile gave a good review to the M3 (the even hooked it up to Wilson MAXX2s, it is pretty interesting). Back around 2000 NAD used to have the "silver series". They discontinued it after not long... I was glad to see them bring out the Master Series as the silver series was pretty good.
As far as the current NAD classic integrateds... I don't know what ones have it, but you should look for whatever one uses the c162 pre section inside. Some of them just have a line stage, but a couple have most of the guts from the c162 pre... those would be the ones to get.
I have a NAD c350, and it just has a line stage... it works, but there are some problems with NADs approach to it (and some ways to get around the problems). The thing about NAD is that their power amp sections are truly gems... and a good upgrade for later on is a new pre and use the power amp of the integrated.
However, the c162 is a very good pre section, if you get the integrated with that section, you have a wonderful piece. -
you missed that fine Rotel receiver in the FM area. Good solid performer
for the money."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Marker - I look at a 325BEE every day, as its the power for my computer rig. Any choice of IA from the lineups of Cambridge(540/640A or older A series) or NAD(320BEE and up) is a winner to me. They are built well, sound great and hold their value.
Yashu - With the exception of having a phono stage, the others share the same pre-amp stage to the best of my knowledge. I wouldn't base anything on whether or not something had a phono stage but that's because I don't do vinyl....your needs may be different. The phono stage doesn't add a sonic element to something, its just an option.
Ted - I miss the green button as well. I thought it was a nice touch.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Denon, HK, Outlaw, and Rotel are others.engtaz
I love how music can brighten up a bad day. -
you missed that fine Rotel receiver in the FM area. Good solid performer
for the money.Denon, HK, Outlaw, and Rotel are others.
We're talking about integrated amps, not receivers or AVR's.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I love my C320 BEE, and evidently there are a lot of reviews that agree with me...I bought it because I wanted something inexpensive that preformed well...It blew away my expectations....
-
Nad Rules2 CHANNEL
Speaker - Klipsch Heresy II
Under construction -
We're talking about integrated amps, not receivers or AVR's.
Denon and Rotel currently make an IA and the used market is abound.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Stereophile gave a good review to the M3 (the even hooked it up to Wilson MAXX2s, it is pretty interesting).
Class A ranking!Back around 2000 NAD used to have the "silver series". They discontinued it after not long... I was glad to see them bring out the Master Series as the silver series was pretty good.
The Silver Series components were actually made by European manufacturer Gryphon and re-badged under the NAD name & logo.
The Master Series was done in house by NAD.
I have both the NAD S300 and the M3, and their sound quality is both excellent, but the M3 has a lot of features that the S300 simply doesn't, like pre-outs/main-ins, and on board bass management just to name a few. Those features come in handy on the NHT T6 (also 'Phile Class A rated) speakers I use the M3 with because of T6's outboard active crossover. I simply couldn't use the S300 with them.
As far as the current NAD classic integrateds... I don't know what ones have it, but you should look for whatever one uses the c162 pre section inside. Some of them just have a line stage, but a couple have most of the guts from the c162 pre... those would be the ones to get.
I have a NAD c350, and it just has a line stage... it works, but there are some problems with NADs approach to it (and some ways to get around the problems). The thing about NAD is that their power amp sections are truly gems... and a good upgrade for later on is a new pre and use the power amp of the integrated.
However, the c162 is a very good pre section, if you get the integrated with that section, you have a wonderful piece.
That would be the C372. It was 'Phile rated as Class B if I'm not mistaken, and is an incredible value for the $$$. -
One other + to going separate as opposed to integrated is being able to select different types of amps and pres.
For example I use a Passive TVC preamp in my PC rig mated with a Gainclone, I could never find that in an integrated.
Jared -
If you are looking to get into making good sound in a hurry without breaking the bank, I would pick up something like the C320 BEE or the C325 BEE...They both have pre-outs, so later on you could pick up another amp you might want to try...If you like it, you could pick up a pre next, and turn the integrated into a nice little office or bedroom rig....Just an idea.....
