I love the hip hop community!!

wingnut4772

aaharvel wrote: »

'hiphop community' is an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

The key here is 'moron'.

F1nut

So if both of these dynamics were operating in your neighborhood, what would you do?

Move!

TroyD

..and while I'm in a mood.

You've got chuckleheads calling for the head of Don Imus who is guilty of nothing more than not being funny.....yet, zipperheads like this guy are making a FORTUNE for being capable and willing to do things that ACTUALLY hurt people.

I'm sorry, that's f*&ked up thinking. Yet it would appear that there is a segment of the population that is willing to accept that premise lock stock and barrel.

The power of stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

BDT

wingnut4772

One of the greatest books ever written.. that and Origin of the Species.

TroyD

Atlas Shrugged IS a great book. Ayn Rand had it going on.

BDT

Maurice

TroyD wrote: »

What a bunch of crap.

I am SO sick and goddamn tired of the POLICE being blamed for the actions of a bunch of lowlife f&*king scumbags.

It's a crock of shiite. 95% of the population is able to live in relative peace and we want to rationalize and defend the actions of a bunch of barbarians? ****. I'm sorry, the world ain't friggin' fair. It's less fair to some than others. That's the way it is, I'm sorry but you know what? Get over it. LOTS of people do and don't use it as an excuse to live like barbarians. Lots of people overcome obstacles of all sorts and better thier situation.

If we ever want to solve problems we need to stop whining. Stop crying, stop blaming. Take responsibility for YOU and yours.

BDT

While I agree with your statements, its never quite that simple. First, this rapper does not speak for his entire community, let alone all black communities. Though his statements are very jaded and silly, they come from a basic truth within many communities. As a black man, I grew up in this type of situation and as you stated, did what I had to do to put myself in a much better position in life. I'm now a business owner, live in a beautiful home in the suburbs, the whole nine. Yet, because of all the things I have seen, even I still have a very deep seeded mistrust of law enforcement. Though I understand the need for them, and that most of law enforcement officials are upstanding, MY reality is that most of the law enforcement I have ever dealt with were scumbags. My point is this, your location shapes your perception.

This is where the rub is. For instance, anytime there is an outcry about police corruption, the first thing in response is usually "what about the good ones". Problem is, we're not talking about the good ones, but have issue with the bad ones that needs resolving. Its a lack of understanding on both sides of the fence. It never ends. What I've learned is when I'm talking to someone about something that they have experienced (and I have not), take their word for it rather than judging their opinions from a place of ignorance on my part. Even if I cant relate to their experience, I can gain understanding about issues I have never faced, and maybe even offer a possible solution.

just my .02, over and out.

jabrax

God I love these debates.............Confirms my thinking...Each and everyone of US isprejudice!!!! (didn't say racist or that it is a bad thing) Its just what it is hahaha

Our views coming from our past to formulate our opinions and thinking. You can almost pick each persons life situation from their response in this post.
Fasinating read

TroyD

Everyone has predjudiced in some way. I don't say that in a negative way, but we all have them about certain things. Someone who says they don't is full of ****.

I'm just tired of people making excuses and rationalizing behaviors by blaming someone else.

Now, are there bad cops? You betcha. Does that mean that because there are bad cops that it's ok to break the law? Advocate violence against cops? Glorify drug dealers / thugs as heroes? Hell no.

People, like Maurice shows, CAN break the cycle if they make that choice. Life is all about choices and I'm sick and tired of people trying to blame someone else for THIER bad choices.

BDT

cfrizz

Troy & Maurice, EXCELLENT posts!

TroyD

While I'm at it, here is another thing that I want to throw out there.

I understand that, for example, I don't know what it's like, for example, to grow up black in a poor black neighborhood. However, we all have our crosses to bear. So, I grew up dirt poor. I choose not to let those circumstances define who I am.

Just because I didn't grow up in a certain circumstances, I'm wholly unqualified to make an assesment? Respectfully, I disagree. Because the folks, in this example, who are bashing the cops (literally and figuratively) are doing just that. They certainly haven't walked a mile in a cops shoes. They see what they want to see as well. Also, I disagree that I can't judge a criminal because I haven't walked a mile in thier shoes. BS. If you are a criminal, you made that choice. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Everyone has thier particular issues. We all have to figure out a way to overcome them. Some have a taller order and while I have empathy, that's not an excuse. No one ever said life was easy or fair.

BDT

Early B.

Let's examine this situation objectively. We've all heard the phrase, "You are a product of your environment." Every psychologist, sociologist, social worker, criminiologist, or cultural anthropologist will attest to this statement. Unfortunately, many people are not tolerant of others unlike themselves or lack the understanding of the role the environment plays in shaping beliefs and behavior. There are words for this problem --- xenophobia, ethnocentrism, or plain ol' arrogance.

aaharvel

Early B. wrote: »

Let's examine this situation objectively. We've all heard the phrase, "You are a product of your environment." Every psychologist, sociologist, social worker, criminiologist, or cultural anthropologist will attest to this statement.

I have a BA in Soc, so yes that's true. That was hammered in my head for four years. Yes, you are a product of your environment - BUT you can also become an instrument of change, whether it's in your environment or not. And if you're lucky, you can change the environment as you go along. My problem with the hip-hop community (in general) is that they'd rather preach about injustice and in the process they end up making it worse for themselves as well as others around them through stigmas and stereotypes that are justified and celebrated in the actual songs they put out to impressionable young people. It's gotten to the point that doing something about it is akin to merely "selling out" and that helps nobody. Just my .02.

While I've always understood their argument to a point, it's things like the Duke rape case and the Imus aftermath that help me to see that yes, you are a product of your environment... and it's also much, much more complicated than that and simply putting a period at the end of that phrase is taking the easy way out. IMO.

Early B.

aaharvel wrote: »

I have a BA in Soc, so yes that's true. That was hammered in my head for four years. Yes, you are a product of your environment. But you can also become an instrument of change, whether it's in your environment or not. And if you're lucky, you can change the environment as you go along. My problem with the hip-hop community (in general) is that they'd rather complain about injustice and in the process make it worse for both themselves and others around them than actually "sell out" and do something about it. Just my .02.

Yeah, hip-hop is horrible, but their messages are certainly not representative of their community any more than any other form of "artful" expression from any other sub-culture.

I also agree that you can change your environment and your thinking, but unfortunately, those who do are the exception rather than the rule.

hearingimpared

Early B. wrote: »

Imagine, for a moment, growing up in this rapper's neighborhood. There are two major dynamics going on when dealing with cops. First, there's the issues of police brutality, harassment, excessive force, imprisoning innocent victims, cops as criminals, etc., that are rampant throughout every major city in the country. Because of this, the lack of trust of police officers is the norm in the 'hood. No doubt. Then there's the issue of retaliation for "ratting" on anyone. In other words, you literally put your life on the line (and the lives of your family) if you snitch. In fact, you have to be extremely careful about being seen talking to a cop. So if both of these dynamics were operating in your neighborhood, what would you do?

You are kidding right? So what you are preaching along with that rapper is anarchy? Yep, that is a real good way to live.:rolleyes:

jabrax

Soooo, what is hip hop? Maybe, people are talking about different things.

Are you talking about hiphop the generation/culture (which I feel it is), or hiphop in terms of gansta rap music. I get the feeling people are speaking from what their perspective of what they view hiphop as.

Are we talking about the few artist who's comments give people a spot to pounce on the culture and consider that hiphop...Sorry, but hiphop is much larger than that.

Interesting how this persons comments are linked/considered to be the thinking of the whole hiphop community.

This thread has gone through an interesting evolution from a rappers comments, to poor black kids trying to get ahead. Last I checked, hiphop wasn't black. Most popular artist are, but the culture isn't (like it or not).

Tried to enjoy thread without commenting, but I had to throw in juuuusst a little.

Great thread and thanks for keeping the dialogue mature!!!!!

cfrizz

Again, I agree Troy.

The problem is how people are raised. If you are raised with parents who have low expectations, no goals, rant & rave about this that & the other thing & how you aren't allowed by whomever to get out of it & are not encouraged by your parents by word or example to get out of it, where are you going to end up?

Environment has less to do with how these people turn out than the examples set before them by the most important people around them!

My brothers & I didn't exactly grow up in the best of environments. But that didn't stop my father from working 2 jobs while he got his Masters degree in music. It didn't stop our parents from insisting that we pay attention, obey our teachers & get good grades in school or suffer a sore **** if we didn't!

It didn't stop them from teaching us that if we work hard, treat everyone with respect, and that there are good & bad people in all walks of life & all colors. So don't put everyone into one catagory.

Most of all they taught us to think for ourselves, that it was better to NOT go along with the crowd & to do what is right for any given situation. Not what everyone else thinks should be done.

In so doing this, we removed ourselves from a less than adequate environment as soon as financially possible. And we have suceeded because our parents set & had higher expectations for us.

TroyD wrote: »

While I'm at it, here is another thing that I want to throw out there.

I understand that, for example, I don't know what it's like, for example, to grow up black in a poor black neighborhood. However, we all have our crosses to bear. So, I grew up dirt poor. I choose not to let those circumstances define who I am.

Just because I didn't grow up in a certain circumstances, I'm wholly unqualified to make an assesment? Respectfully, I disagree. Because the folks, in this example, who are bashing the cops (literally and figuratively) are doing just that. They certainly haven't walked a mile in a cops shoes. They see what they want to see as well. Also, I disagree that I can't judge a criminal because I haven't walked a mile in thier shoes. BS. If you are a criminal, you made that choice. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Everyone has thier particular issues. We all have to figure out a way to overcome them. Some have a taller order and while I have empathy, that's not an excuse. No one ever said life was easy or fair.

BDT

hearingimpared

cfrizz wrote: »

Most of all they taught us to think for ourselves, that it was better to NOT go along with the crowd & to do what is right for any given situation. Not what everyone else thinks should be done.

Of all the things you've ever noted about life Cathy this is the single most important thing that my parents instillled in my sister, brothers, and I (good work ethic is in there too). DON'T FOLLOW THE CROWD and that is exactly the opposite that this greedy rapper is perpetuating. . . do as we say . . . eff the cops, society is out to get you. Bad business for black kids, white kids, oriental kids, Hispanic kids, all kids in this country who listen to that rotten message of hate and distain for anything outside of that sick culture they are preaching.

Early B.

cfrizz wrote: »

Environment has less to do with how these people turn out than the examples set before them by the most important people around them!

The majority of people growing up in this kind of environment, regardless of race, don't have hard working parents who eventually get their Master's degrees. Furthermore, the most important people around them are not often their parent(s), who may be in jail, hooked on drugs, or whatever. So what happens is that young people perceive the most important people are those in their environment who have the most money. Guess who that is?

aaharvel

"Environment has less to do with how these people turn out than the examples set before them by the most important people around them"

aka - One's environment.

cfrizz

Fine, whatever. The point is, if you know your environment is bad...GET THE HELL OUT! Don't just sit there & blame everyone else for it.

shack

cfrizz wrote: »

Fine, whatever. The point is, if you know your environment is bad...GET THE HELL OUT! Don't just sit there & blame everyone else for it.

Are you trying to tell us that people should take responsibility for their own lives rather than blame almost everyone else for their problems? Maybe even get educated, work hard and don't expect a handout or break from anyone, much less the government? As I understand what is being said...the ENVIRONMENT is such a strong force, it prevents any of that from happening. Silly woman....:rolleyes:

jdhdiggs

No Shack, it's your fault, and mine, that their parents and communities suck. Don't you know that? It can't be because they haven't done much to better their situation. No, couldn't be that...

aaharvel

#43. re-read (or just read).

Early B.

aaharvel wrote: »

#43. re-read (or just read).

Then re-read #44.;)

cfrizz

So sorry Shack & JD. I don't know what I was thinking!:eek: What I stated worked for me & mine, so I figured it could work for anyone. I guess we just got lucky:rolleyes: :eek:

aaharvel

Early B. wrote: »

Then re-read #44.;)

HA!!

jabrax

cfrizz wrote: »

So sorry Shack & JD. I don't know what I was thinking!:eek: What I stated worked for me & mine, so I figured it could work for anyone. I guess we just got lucky:rolleyes: :eek:

Yes, you were fortunate, kinda...There are many who do....I being a product of a very similar situation running with a very strong gang. Fortunately, I was naturally good with academics (not the case with everyone). I could sit in class high every day, roll with the crew in and out of school and still pull grades. It would be foolish of me to think that everyone I rolled with would/could do that and fortunatly for me my parents never being home (a trickle problem of have to work so much) because they were out busting their asses had no idea of the **** I was into. On the other side, when you see the parents who were busting their asses constantly being beat down trying to compete for scraps, maybe you can see why they say f this or that and makes it even tougher for their siblings who have to see and hear it everyday.

Lets face it....for the 40 year old generation....Our black and white grandparents probably don't like (i said probably) each other. The children of these grandparents (especially black) were taking **** whoopings for opportunity to vote (example.) So how many opportunities in that era were there to get out. Not saying it is an excuse, it is a fact that they are still alive and their children (my genaration 40's) had more opprunities to make right. My children have even more oppronuties as the generations go through cycles. Still, there is only so much room to get out at a time. Economics just isnt set up for it. As Troy D so eloquently stated (kinda) earlier, there will always be haves and have nots. We may not agree with the perception of the have-nots, but you put a mic in there face and say speak about what you have dealt with and feel, and we wont always like what we hear, agree or disagree.

Damn, I just reread what I was typing and I was all over frigging place. Couldn't type fast enough to keep up with the thoughts. I tried to cut the points short, but it is leaving wholes in thoughts. So I will just leave as is and close on the topic.

Again, fascinating read :cool:

Jeff

hearingimpared

jabrax wrote: »

Yes, you were fortunate, kinda...There are many who do....I being a product of a very similar situation running with a very strong gang. Fortunately, I was naturally good with academics (not the case with everyone). I could sit in class high every day, roll with the crew in and out of school and still pull grades. It would be foolish of me to think that everyone I rolled with would/could do that and fortunatly for me my parents never being home (a trickle problem of have to work so much) because they were out busting their asses had no idea of the **** I was into. On the other side, when you see the parents who were busting their asses constantly being beat down trying to compete for scraps, maybe you can see why they say f this or that and makes it even tougher for their siblings who have to see and hear it everyday.

Lets face it....for the 40 year old generation....Our black and white grandparents probably don't like (i said probably) each other. The children of these grandparents (especially black) were taking **** whoopings for opportunity to vote (example.) So how many opportunities in that era were there to get out. Not saying it is an excuse, it is a fact that they are still alive and their children (my genaration 40's) had more opprunities to make right. My children have even more oppronuties as the generations go through cycles. Still, there is only so much room to get out at a time. Economics just isnt set up for it. As Troy D so eloquently stated (kinda) earlier, there will always be haves and have nots. We may not agree with the perception of the have-nots, but you put a mic in there face and say speak about what you have dealt with and feel, and we wont always like what we hear, agree or disagree.

Damn, I just reread what I was typing and I was all over frigging place. Couldn't type fast enough to keep up with the thoughts. I tried to cut the points short, but it is leaving wholes in thoughts. So I will just leave as is and close on the topic.

Again, fascinating read :cool:

Jeff

The way I see it, to black people it is a white & black issue. I'm 1st generation Italian and IMHO it is not a black & white issue. Italians, Irish, Germans etc are all "white" and each has had their fair share of trying to get up and out. Now I am not saying they had to overcome slavery issues but it is not as easy as saying black & white.

George Grand

Early, stop using your money for stereo stuff. Sell it all, and either move out of your neighborhood, or use the money to get some help.

TroyD

Ok, this is sort of aimed at both Jeff and Early...

Yes, the elder generations did go through trials and tribulations. However, for the most part, it's not THEM out there selling drugs, producing a generation of children without parents, advocating violence against police etc...now is it?

There is discrimination out there. Against women, Asians, Latinos, Jews....etc etc etc. There is discrimination everywhere. It just is and most of the time, it's not neccessarily intentional. So, if the roadblocks are there, a decision must be made.....either find a way around or give up and use it as an excuse for failure.

Now, the segment of the population that uses it as an excuse for failure....that's **** even worse is to glorify that excuse and wear it as a banner for all to follow. As far as being a product of your environment, to an extent, ok. However, we don't live in a damn vacuum, there is enough media and exposure to different things that I don't buy that people can't see there way out. It's a friggin' cop out.

See and to me this is the difference. People like me are seen as callous and uncaring. That's absolutely not true. I want everyone to succeed. However, I think that patronizing people, telling them it's not thier fault that they are fuckups and giving them a handout is the answer. To succeed requires sacrifice and it's going to be harder for some. For those that choose to be a vicitm of circumstance, they get no such sympathy from me.

Beyond that, I also see ZERO reason, regardless, why it's such a stretch to expect people to abide by the laws and be civil. There is NO excuse why there are some places you need an armored brigade to go through certain neighborhoods. There is NO excuse for that sort of ****.

BDT