Election day.

1246

Comments

  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2006
    If it is a fact, then post evidence to support the claim. If I am mis/uninformed then show me how. I can not take the clame "That's a fact" at face value without the fear of continuing my ignorance.

    There will always be divisions. That is where the idea of tolerence comes from. You tolerate those you disagree with.

    edit: Almost(don't want to asy all for fear of the "generalization" card) every statement in here is 50% fact spun to fit someone's agenda. The joke is that many of us believe our own BS.

    Here you go:

    Chart 2-6. The Federal Government Dollar— Where it Goes
    Chart 2-6 is a pie chart representing Federal Government spending for 2000. The chart is made up of nine items, each representing a percentage of total Government spending.

    Item 1. Social Security 22%.
    Item 2. Net Interest 11%.
    Item 3. Medicare 11%.
    Item 4. Medicaid 6%.
    Item 5. Other Mandatory 6%.
    Item 6. Other Means-tested entitlements 6% (Footnote: Means-tested entitlements are those for which eligibility is based on income. The Medicaid program is also a means-tested entitlement.)
    Item 7. Reserve pending Social Security reform 6%.
    Item 8. Non-defense discretionary 17%.
    Item 9. National defense 15%.

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy00/descriptions.html

    As you can see, Entitlement spending, items 1, 3-7, equal 54 percent of the federal budget. Defense: 15 percent.

    That's a fact, jack.

    I do tolerate those that disagree with me, however, in this case....the fact is on my side.

    BDT

    Edit: I can't find the figures for 2006. Our current federal budget is 2.8 Trillion. Defense spending is 441.6 billion.
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited November 2006
    Wow! I knew we spent a freaking assload on handouts but I didnt know it was that much!! I say we take 10% of the handout money and use if for pay raises and benefits for the military. A much better value I would think and we'd get a lot more return on our money investing in our best and brightest as opposed to handouts.
    polkaudio sound quality competitor since 2005
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  • W WALDECKER
    W WALDECKER Posts: 900
    edited November 2006
    F1nut wrote:
    Hey now, GG is like a breath of fresh air. He says what he means, no PC crap from him and these days that's rare. You should try to appeciate that.
    Yeah GG is as real as it gets.gotta love it!
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited November 2006
    Just so long as you exercise care from which so called handouts you take it from Mac!

    MacLeod wrote:
    Wow! I knew we spent a freaking assload on handouts but I didnt know it was that much!! I say we take 10% of the handout money and use if for pay raises and benefits for the military. A much better value I would think and we'd get a lot more return on our money investing in our best and brightest as opposed to handouts.
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited November 2006
    Why? They're handouts.. just income redistribution. Notice all the money goes from the few (the wealthy) to the voting majority (poor/ retired).

    Just for the record: The Saudi people are hoping we stay in Iraq, but are happy with the election results. Now their military is gearing up to go into Iraq to try an gain a peace for when we pull out.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    TroyD wrote:
    Here you go:

    Chart 2-6. The Federal Government Dollar— Where it Goes
    Chart 2-6 is a pie chart representing Federal Government spending for 2000. The chart is made up of nine items, each representing a percentage of total Government spending.

    Item 1. Social Security 22%.
    Item 2. Net Interest 11%.
    Item 3. Medicare 11%.
    Item 4. Medicaid 6%.
    Item 5. Other Mandatory 6%.
    Item 6. Other Means-tested entitlements 6% (Footnote: Means-tested entitlements are those for which eligibility is based on income. The Medicaid program is also a means-tested entitlement.)
    Item 7. Reserve pending Social Security reform 6%.
    Item 8. Non-defense discretionary 17%.
    Item 9. National defense 15%.

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy00/descriptions.html

    As you can see, Entitlement spending, items 1, 3-7, equal 54 percent of the federal budget. Defense: 15 percent.

    That's a fact, jack.

    I do tolerate those that disagree with me, however, in this case....the fact is on my side.

    BDT

    Edit: I can't find the figures for 2006. Our current federal budget is 2.8 Trillion. Defense spending is 441.6 billion.

    SS is not Entitlement. The way it is supposed to work is you pay in then, after retirement, you get back what you payed in. (Reality is a different story)
  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2006
    The hell it's not an entitlement.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited November 2006
    If you're a conservative in this country, like me, there are only 3 things you need to worry about after Tuesdays results.

    <strike>#1 -- Liberals actually exercising caution with their power.</strike>

    <strike>#2 -- Post 08 supreme court nomination should they hold the line on #1.</strike>

    #3 -- Republican party moving further to the left.

    You can breathe a sigh of relief on the first two counts since neither are likely to happen if history is any barometer. You've got Nancy Pilosi poised to take the lead in the U.S. House from the left coast, and one of the most backwards cities in the entire country. She's a loon folks, and loons will lead a flock of loons in lock step formation. The left ran to the center on this election and won, but we all know they're not in the center, nor does the voting majority want a government left of center. They merely voted for the other guy.

    What we need them to do is try and impeach the President on policy decisions they disagree with. Bad precedent to be sure, but they have a score to settle on Presidents that do anything outside of the realm of their **** from now on. She denied they would do it prior to the election, but frankly I don't know how they hold the top down on the percolator of their kook base. Hell the wheels are already turning on Rumsfeld, and I doubt they'll be decrying that action.

    We need them to believe that the election on Tuesday was a repudiation of conservative values. Anyone with an ounce of political sense would realize it was just the opposite. Why? Well, let's see -- the conservatives flushed the toilet on republicans that ran as conservatives in 2000 & 2004, but legislated as tax & spend democrat liberals one elected. They merely became what they despised, and the entire party paid the price. They sucked the teat of the special interest groups and spent like drunken democrats. Many of the good guys got thrown under the RINO bus, including Santorum. I remember when the scum on the left claimed his newborn child's death was the result of a "partial birth abortion," but we have people here calling him the scum? Just goes to show that repudiation of unseemly acts perpetrated by the left on conservatives are constantly given a pass, but the favor is never extended in the other direction. Nor should it be really -- it's what sets apart the honorable from the dishonorable.

    You also had amendments to state constitutions banning **** marriage that were passed in 7 out of 8 states on Tuesday. Pretty damning in an election that was supposed to be considered such a big win for liberalism. It's been banned by state constitutions in 26 states -- 13 others have legislation that bans it. Either Democrats are really a bunch of hypocrites on **** rights or conservatives stayed home/voted for democrats.

    So, if you're a conservative you likely really only have one thing to worry about in all of this and that's the representation you have within the Republican party. RINOs have got to go, and you have to demand it.


    Hey, isn't it also amazing that there were nothing wrong with the voting machines in all of these close elections that went to the Democrats this time? AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • BlueMDPicker
    BlueMDPicker Posts: 7,569
    edited November 2006
    jdhdiggs wrote:
    Why? They're handouts.. just income redistribution. Notice all the money goes from the few (the wealthy) to the voting majority (poor/ retired).

    Well, quite obviously James, no one is going to slander you with the label "compassionate conservative". That's fine and you are absolutely entitled to your views. The vitriol leaves me, personally, a bit cold. I pay huge amounts of tax, dressed in all manner of guises. Do I like it. No. But, I don't want to live in a country where people live and die on the streets--regardless of what circumstance brought them there. Pointing a finger at the elderly and poor is misguided, to put it mildly. Many of those fixed income seniors designed, built, maintained, and supported with their tax burdens the societal infrastructure you, me, and millions of others used as a vehicle for our success. Low income wage earners, many below anyone's estimate of a poverty level, do nobel work daily that makes our society comfortable and affordable. They should be honored, not vilified and despised.

    My wish for you is long life, great happiness, and success on your terms whatever they may be. I also wish you the wisdom that comes with age and the compassion I trust will follow.
    jdhdiggs wrote:
    Just for the record: The Saudi people are hoping we stay in Iraq, but are happy with the election results. Now their military is gearing up to go into Iraq to try an gain a peace for when we pull out.

    Do you really suppose they seek the same goal as we, democracy and freedom for the citizens of Iraq? That would be a revolutionary ideal for the Saudis, would it not?
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    TroyD wrote:
    The hell it's not an entitlement.

    BDT

    Yes, I am entitled to the money I put in that was promised to me. Hardly a handout.
  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2006
    I'm not saying that it's not deserved nor anything of the sort. What I AM saying is that defense spending is almost a quarter of what we send out in the form of entitlement spending. Semantic issues aside; the facts remain.

    Entitlement isn't a negative term but it is what it is.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited November 2006
    Yes, I am entitled to the money I put in that was promised to me. Hardly a handout.

    You don't get out what you put in, at least if you make any bank. I guarandamntee you that. It's a handout.

    Let people save their own money in retirement savings account. There's no reason the government needs their greasy hands on it.
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    What we need them to do is try and impeach the President on policy decisions they disagree with. Bad precedent to be sure, but they have a score to settle on Presidents that do anything outside of the realm of their **** from now on. She denied they would do it prior to the election, but frankly I don't know how they hold the top down on the percolator of their kook base. Hell the wheels are already turning on Rumsfeld, and I doubt they'll be decrying that action. QUOTE]

    I love that a President, at best mislead and a worst flat out lied to us leading to soldier's deaths and set policy in direct conflict with our constitution, is seen as morally higher (and should not be impeached) then a president that got a BJ. I see them both as wrong.
  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    What we need them to do is try and impeach the President on policy decisions they disagree with. Bad precedent to be sure, but they have a score to settle on Presidents that do anything outside of the realm of their **** from now on. She denied they would do it prior to the election, but frankly I don't know how they hold the top down on the percolator of their kook base. Hell the wheels are already turning on Rumsfeld, and I doubt they'll be decrying that action.

    I love that a President, at best mislead and a worst flat out lied to us leading to soldier's deaths and set policy in direct conflict with our constitution, is seen as morally higher (and should not be impeached) then a president that got a BJ. I see them both as wrong.

    You don't impeach Presidents for policy disagreements, but I damn well hope we do here. It'll seal the fate of the liberal movement in this country under the donkey symbol.
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    You don't get out what you put in, at least if you make any bank. I guarandamntee you that. It's a handout.

    Let people save their own money in retirement savings account. There's no reason the government needs their greasy hands on it.

    The bottom line is it is YOUR money. It is not a handout and the fact that you do not get all of it back should create outrage in all of us.
  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited November 2006
    Well, quite obviously James, no one is going to slander you with the label "compassionate conservative". That's fine and you are absolutely entitled to your views. The vitriol leaves me, personally, a bit cold. I pay huge amounts of tax, dressed in all manner of guises. Do I like it. No. But, I don't want to live in a country where people live and die on the streets--regardless of what circumstance brought them there. Pointing a finger at the elderly and poor is misguided, to put it mildly. Many of those fixed income seniors designed, built, maintained, and supported with their tax burdens the societal infrastructure you, me, and millions of others used as a vehicle for our success. Low income wage earners, many below anyone's estimate of a poverty level, do nobel work daily that makes our society comfortable and affordable. They should be honored, not vilified and despised.

    My wish for you is long life, great happiness, and success on your terms whatever they may be. I also wish you the wisdom that comes with age and the compassion I trust will follow.

    Do you really suppose they seek the same goal as we, democracy and freedom for the citizens of Iraq? That would be a revolutionary ideal for the Saudis, would it not?

    Poor is a choice in this country. Period.

    Plenty are satisfied making a living wage, and that's just fine. If you have the desire to succeed monetarily the sky is the limit in this country.

    Oh, and psst...."Compassionate Conservatism" is what lost the election for republicans on Tuesday. There's nothing more compassionate than giving someone the tools to succeed. There's nothing compassionate about giving a few bits of penance only to ensure imminent failure in someone. You're only making yourself feel good, and doing nothing to solve the problem and giving someone the ability to be self sufficient.

    Charity should be by choice, not by tax.
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    You don't impeach Presidents for policy disagreements, but I damn well hope we do here. It'll seal the fate of the liberal movement in this country under the donkey symbol.

    Intentionally lying to the the American people is not policy disagreement. They tried to impeach clinton because he lied. That is exactly what this president has done.
  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited November 2006
    cfrizz wrote:
    Just so long as you exercise care from which so called handouts you take it from Mac!

    That would be easy! If I were king the first things I would do would be:

    The National Endowment for the Arts would be the first to go.

    Then the Prescription Drug Program.

    I wouldnt get rid of welfare cause I believe in a safety net but Id put a lifetime limit on it along the lines of 1-2 years.

    These arent entitlements but Id shut down the Department of Education.

    Then privatize airport security again.

    Scrap the bridge to nowhere in Alaska.

    That should free up a few billion dollars that would be much better served in the hands of military familes.

    Then Id eleminate the death tax and the capital gains tax, lower the top marginal rate down to 25% and then start drilling the crap out of Alaska, the Gulf of Mexico and the coast of Kalifornia and fine any business that hires illegal aliens $25,000 a day per alien. Then peace and prosperity would ensue!

    Oh yeah, and I forgot to add, free beer during NASCAR and football and Kate Beckinsale would have to marry me or else Id nuke England! :D
    polkaudio sound quality competitor since 2005
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  • MSALLA
    MSALLA Posts: 1,602
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    You don't get out what you put in, at least if you make any bank. I guarandamntee you that. It's a handout.

    Let people save their own money in retirement savings account. There's no reason the government needs their greasy hands on it.

    That won't work anymore. It was designed to be a true savings acount and the money was not to be touched. With the gov't using it to fund things and such. your tax dollars directly pay someones social sec.

    They estimate that tax going as high as 18% in the future.

    When I started this post, I didn't expect it to become a fourm of political views as I don't get into these talks because they become arguments. Sorry if I started any bad blood between people. I didn't notice any heated posts but just incase.
    Michael


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  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited November 2006
    Intentionally lying to the the American people is not policy disagreement. They tried to impeach clinton because he lied. That is exactly what this president has done.

    President Bush never lied to the American people. He, his fellow republicans, and your fellow democrats did something you disagree with.

    President Clinton lied under oath in a court of law. Do you see the difference?

    Apparently not.

    Policy disagreements are not impeachable offenses, but I am at ease knowing people like you are pushing for it. It only renders you even more impotent for years to come.
  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited November 2006
    Intentionally lying to the the American people is not policy disagreement. They tried to impeach clinton because he lied. That is exactly what this president has done.

    Then John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Tom Daschle, Al Gore, Dick Gephardt, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy and a bunch of other would also have to be impeached as they said the SAME THINGS BUSH WAS SAYING! Not to mention all the intelligence agencies thruout the world that were agreeing with Bush as well.

    Kerry even had the best line about it! "If you dont believe Saddam has nuclear weapons and is a threat to the US, dont vote for me!" I suppose he was lying too?

    Nobody lied! Its a weak, baseless argument and you have no proof. Get over it!
    polkaudio sound quality competitor since 2005
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  • Demiurge
    Demiurge Posts: 10,874
    edited November 2006
    MSALLA wrote:
    That won't work anymore. It was designed to be a true savings acount and the money was not to be touched. With the gov't using it to fund things and such. your tax dollars directly pay someones social sec.

    They estimate that tax going as high as 18% in the future.

    Social Security fund has been getting raided since it's inception. I'll likely never see any of the money I have been pumping into it for my working life. I have absolutely no reason to support it. I support personal savings accounts.

    Anyone under the age of 30 that has a job might as well just be wiping their **** and flushing each dollar they pump into Social Security because you and your family will never benefit from it.
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    MacLeod wrote:
    Then John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Tom Daschle, Al Gore, Dick Gephardt, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy and a bunch of other would also have to be impeached as they said the SAME THINGS BUSH WAS SAYING! Not to mention all the intelligence agencies thruout the world that were agreeing with Bush as well.

    Kerry even had the best line about it! "If you dont believe Saddam has nuclear weapons and is a threat to the US, dont vote for me!" I suppose he was lying too?

    Nobody lied! Its a weak, baseless argument and you have no proof. Get over it!

    Simply read all of the inteligence that countered Iraq's WMD clames. They were supressed. And Kerry voted to show unifying support that we will stand up against terrorism together. In his speach before the vote he clearly indicated that he would change his vote if the president jumped right into war. Then everyone called him a flip flopper for doing what he promised.

    Oh yeah, I am a Republican. I am just sick of the ultra-Right. I like the idea of limiting wellfare durations.
  • daniel_paul_
    daniel_paul_ Posts: 189
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    Social Security fund has been getting raided since it's inception. I'll likely never see any of the money I have been pumping into it for my working life. I have absolutely no reason to support it. I support personal savings accounts.

    Anyone under the age of 30 that has a job might as well just be wiping their **** and flushing each dollar they pump into Social Security because you and your family will never benefit from it.

    +1..I am out.
  • MacLeod
    MacLeod Posts: 14,358
    edited November 2006
    Simply read all of the inteligence that countered Iraq's WMD clames. They were supressed.

    What a load! Supressed by who? So Bush got ALL the intelligence agencies from around the world (i.e. Germany, France, Russia who are not exactly Bush's biggest fans) to supress the same intelligence? Not likely
    And Kerry voted to show unifying support that we will stand up against terrorism together. In his speach before the vote he clearly indicated that he would hange his vote if the president jumped right into war. Then everyone called him a flip flopper for doing what he promised.

    Another load! He voted for the war. Yeah, in true Kerry fashion he wanted to have it both ways but he voted for the war and defended that stance all thru the Democrat primary when he was running as a conservative.
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  • MSALLA
    MSALLA Posts: 1,602
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    Social Security fund has been getting raided since it's inception. I'll likely never see any of the money I have been pumping into it for my working life. I have absolutely no reason to support it. I support personal savings accounts.

    Anyone under the age of 30 that has a job might as well just be wiping their **** and flushing each dollar they pump into Social Security because you and your family will never benefit from it.

    Thats my point. To stop collecting s.s. tax right now means some retired people will go without because the "trust fund" for lack of a better term is no longer there. It would be ,to everyone who still works, a benifit to stop the tax and invest on there own.
    The way things are now, there will always be S.S. and most people of middle class and under will get what they put in. Just some poor working class guy will be paying a huge nut out of his check to make sure the current generation of retired people of that time will get a check.
    Michael


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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2006
    The bottom line is it is YOUR money. It is not a handout and the fact that you do not get all of it back should create outrage in all of us.

    It's ALL our money. Not just SS, ALL of it is. I wonder if people remember that.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • BlueMDPicker
    BlueMDPicker Posts: 7,569
    edited November 2006
    Demiurge wrote:
    Poor is a choice in this country. Period.

    Plenty are satisfied making a living wage, and that's just fine. If you have the desire to succeed monetarily the sky is the limit in this country.

    Oh, and psst...."Compassionate Conservatism" is what lost the election for republicans on Tuesday. There's nothing more compassionate than giving someone the tools to succeed. There's nothing compassionate about giving a few bits of penance only to ensure imminent failure in someone. You're only making yourself feel good, and doing nothing to solve the problem and giving someone the ability to be self sufficient.

    Charity should be by choice, not by tax.
    I respect your opinion Demi. Thankfully, for my inner joy and contentment, I don't agree with it. Since I have not had the pleasure of your acquaintance, I must rely on your persona projected here. Your rather extreme (no attack, just a personal observation) viewpoint doesn't outwardly seem to bring you much in the way of inner peace. I share the same wish for you, very sincerely, I expressed to James.

    When even one human is diminished, how can it hope to elevate us all?
  • brettw22
    brettw22 Posts: 7,624
    edited November 2006
    Politics is fun
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
  • BlueMDPicker
    BlueMDPicker Posts: 7,569
    edited November 2006
    brettw22 wrote:
    Politics is fun
    Humanism is even more fun! :)