Whats wrong with this picture....

jdhdiggs

I would have swore I edited the "curse" out, oh well. I agree with your post. I think the furstration is that we (American Christians) don't see anything beyond lip service when it comes to the muslims regulating their own and then they complain when we do something about it.

If you look at history, the only person who ever got the muslims, as a culture, to truly question their motives was Tepes which seems so odd that one of the most evil men in history was the only one to turn these men back. Perhaps US soldiers should start posting all those kept in Quantanomo on stakes in the heart of Bagdad while still alive as an example. Maybe that will show we mean business. Instead we have half the country screaming for a withdrawal and surrender and have to fight with one hand tied behind our back. Those who believe we should withdraw should go study WW2 and the appeasement policies of France and Britain in response to Hitler's annexation of Czech and Austrian lands.

I also find it interesting that virtually every predominantly Christian country thrives and the average person has access to food, healthcare, and a decent amount of respect. The predominantly Muslim countries tend to be bass-ackwards and more interesting in playing fun games like "kill thy neighbor" (This is seriously what my Indonesian friends call this crap) than to help the country as a whole. There is a cultural difference in there somewhere. Some countries (KSA, UAE, Kuwait) have started to move away from the Muslim ideal for their governance, and what have they gained? Prosperity for most of the people and calls from Al-Quida and other Muslim extremists for their overthrow. It seems these extremeists will only be happy when everyone is poor riding around killing eachother with swords. Again, is this cultural or religious, maybe both? I would guess that it's a mix of both but the religion creates the culture. The reason I believe that is Indonesia and other non-ME, predominantly muslim countries exibit similar traits.

cheddar

jabrax wrote:

Another tidbit that may be lost in all of this. We are in another contries land trying to impose our will to their way of life, when for those of us old enough to remember, think about the living arrangements in this country only 40 years ago (not a long time,). Now just imagine another country more powerful then us, comes in with bombs and says we have to treat our people better. We are working things out on our own. We had our own civil wars and flexing of power by the people. Must admit there is some merit behind the imperial power claims.

If our country was ever taken over by a lunatic with death/rape squads, mass executions, clouds of poison gas hovering over non-compliant cities, sign me up for the rebellion and any country that would rid us of the monster...

jdhdiggs

cheddar wrote:

If our country was ever taken over by a lunatic with death/rape squads, mass executions, clouds of poison gas hovering over non-compliant cities, sign me up for the rebellion and any country that would rid us of the monster...

I'll drink to that and fire some rounds into the air while I'm at it. Cheers!

Demiurge

Can you tell me why this religion of peace is running around with it's only vocal leaders being terrorists who wish to wipe out the infidels (who consist of anyone not of the Muslim faith)?

You guys can all sit there and try to reason with the insane, but I'd rather hit first than wait for them to hit me again.

As has been stated over and over again, as soon as someone of the Islamic faith wishes to rise up and take on the banner of freedom and ending these tyranical states all over the Middle East I will be right behind them in doing so.

I don't think Muslims all over the world are practicing their religion to the same degree as those in the middle east. Comparing the religion to modern day Christianity is a joke. If Islam wants to be taken seriously as a viable and peaceful religion it better get someone to pull it into line.

You really need to understand Islamic jurisprudence and theology to understand what it means for modern day Jihad. The reason nobody is speaking up is because they can't. Not without completely altering the tenents of their religion. As soon as Islam does that they'll get all of the support they need.

Those comparing people here in this thread to Hitler and Stalin must be out of their heads. Do you think anyone gave a crap about the Islamic faith until they started bombing U.S. interests around the world, and then eventually taking planes and slamming them into our financial and political symbols? The answer is more than likely no. This isn't about America wiping out a race or religion, but about dismantling an apparently hijacked religion being used as a vehicle to tear down freedom in America and around the world. We weren't looking for a fight, but we will take the fight to them.

For those who haven't figured it out -- giving Iraq and Afghanistan the opportunity (which they've never had before the U.S. came in) to enjoy relative freedom is an attempt to allow the philosophy to spread throughout the region.

jdhdiggs

Demi: I'm just not convince that, as a whole, they'd be happy with freedom. It seems that they will always have to be fighting for something. 3,000+ years of constant war seems to do that to a culture.

cheddar

jdhdiggs wrote:

Demi: I'm just not convince that, as a whole, they'd be happy with freedom. It seems that they will always have to be fighting for something. 3,000+ years of constant war seems to do that to a culture.

You might want to give it a chance, though. Japan was a martial country ruled by warlords for thousands of years. It took two DECADES for the US to tranform the country into a democratic country with a a strong pacifist segment in its society. Who knows what would have happened it we'd cut and run from Japan in 1948. Geez, we still have major bases there. I know you're not saying cut and run, but it will take a lot of patience and resolve to get there.

Skynut

jdhdiggs wrote:

Demi: I'm just not convince that, as a whole, they'd be happy with freedom. It seems that they will always have to be fighting for something. 3,000+ years of constant war seems to do that to a culture.

You may be right, they may just be to ignorant or primative to handle freedom.
they want to be sheeple who follow a leader and complain in whispers.

jdhdiggs

No, not cut in run, no way, no how, I just don't think that the people will except it. Give it a chance, sure, but if they fail, we shouldn't go back in to help again...

Japan isn't the best example since it was/is isolated from outside influences and culturaly differnt from the USSR, China, and Korea. Unfortunately, Iraq and Afghanistan are surrounded by Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Jordon, and other countries filled with people who would immediately resent what the people have in the democracies and work to destroy it.

Demiurge

jdhdiggs wrote:

Demi: I'm just not convince that, as a whole, they'd be happy with freedom. It seems that they will always have to be fighting for something. 3,000+ years of constant war seems to do that to a culture.

They've never had a chance. They need to modernize and then go from there. Nobody said it will be easy, but it's better than the alternative will be. I can't wrap my head around the idea that deep down every human being doesn't have the desire to be free. Sadly, most have never had the chance. They're finally getting it and while people died in the process they won't need to worry about being thrown into mass graves, raped, or disfigured by the leader of their country any longer. We need to continue to support this effort and see it through. In the end the imputus will be on this new Iraqi government to be strong and steadfast in their resolve with the U.S. backing them.

People want us out of Iraq, but we're still in Japan and Germany, and they want us there.

If people are going to **** on us for what were doing I say **** them. I really don't care what the rest of the world thinks. We do more for the world than any nation on this earth. The next time their bacon gets caught in the fryer they might want think twice about crawling to us for help.

It's nice to have Wolfgang Schüssel of Austria finally talking some sense over there in Europe. The things he said today about America we almost never hear.

Demiurge

Skynut wrote:

You may be right, they may just be to ignorant or primative to handle freedom.
they want to be sheeple who follow a leader and complain in whispers.

People grow. America is full of people from all religious and ethnic backgrounds, and we're all free. It's the natual human condition. Governments in the middle east have only been holding that back from it's people.

cheddar

jdhdiggs wrote:

Japan isn't the best example since it was/is isolated from outside influences and culturaly differnt from the USSR, China, and Korea. Unfortunately, Iraq and Afghanistan are surrounded by Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Jordon, and other countries filled with people who would immediately resent what the people have in the democracies and work to destroy it.

Actually, the commies in China and the USSR would have done anything they could to destabilize Japan. They couldn't because we occupied it militarily and are still there. Also, the Japanese used to strap bombs to themselves and fly them into our aircraft carriers. Sound familiar? They were fanatics in war by any measure, it was the US presence in their country that continues to this day that transformed their society.

Ricardo

If the U.S. were to be invaded by a Muslim (or any other) nation to "free us from our evil leaders", all us Christians, Catholics, and you mention any other religion, would peacefully and happily welcome the saviours.

Yeah, right.

Don't forget gentlemen that we are in THEIR country, deciding what's best for them. Some of them don't like it, and as long as they exist, they will fight us with NO RULES.

Edit: It won't matter if we are right or wrong

cheddar

HTrookie wrote:

If the U.S. were to be invaded by a Muslim (or any other) nation to "free us from our evil leaders", all us Christians, Catholics, and you mention any other religion, would peacefully and happily welcome the saviours.

Yeah, right.

Don't forget gentlemen that we are in THEIR country, deciding what's best for them. Some of them don't like it, and as long as they exist, they will fight us with NO RULES.

What about death/rape squads, iron-fist police states, poison gas used on its own citizens, and mass graves of civilians don't you understand? There is no fair comparison to our leaders and the ones we knocked out of power in Afganistan and Iraq. Believe it or not, there are actually Iraqis who are happy we got Saddam and killed al-Zaqawi.

Demiurge

cheddar wrote:

What about death/rape squads, iron-fist police states, poison gas used on its own citizens, and mass graves of civilians don't you understand? There is no fair comparison to our leaders and the ones we knocked out of power in Afganistan and Iraq.

Amen.

The people who try for the 180 degree argument are out of their minds.

Go live in Iran for a year and tell me what it's like if you make it out alive.

I love those who **** about our country and then defend the likes of Iran, North Korea, Iraq, etc. Comparing the two is laugable. You're spoiled.

Ricardo

cheddar wrote:

What about death/rape squads, iron-fist police states, poison gas used on its own citizens, and mass graves of civilians don't you understand? There is no fair comparison to our leaders and the ones we knocked out of power in Afganistan and Iraq. Believe it or not, there are actually Iraqis who are happy we got Saddam and killed al-Zaquari.

That is not the point; the point is that as long as there are people that are not happy with what we are doing, they will fight us. It would be the same thing in any other country of the world, including the U.S.

Demiurge

HTrookie wrote:

That is not the point; the point is that as long as there are people that are not happy with what we are doing, they will fight us. It would be the same thing in any other country of the world, including the U.S.

No, that is the point. All Hitler needed was a **** hug, right?

cheddar

HTrookie wrote:

That is not the point; the point is that as long as there are people that are not happy with what we are doing, they will fight us. It would be the same thing in any other country of the world, including the U.S.

And if we pulled out of Japan in 1948, and the communists turned the country into another North Korea, maybe we'd still be fighting war lunatics in Japan too. It doesn't matter that there will always be people willing to kill Americans, but what we are willing to do about it.

Ricardo

Don't get me wrong; I am not saying Saddam was good or bad; all I say is that we should not expect all of them to peacefully accept us, it doesn't matter what religion they are. No one should be surprised that violence does not stop against U.S. and the governement established with the help of U.S. It has not stopped, and it will not stop.

Skynut

HTrookie wrote:

That is not the point; the point is that as long as there are people that are not happy with what we are doing, they will fight us. It would be the same thing in any other country of the world, including the U.S.

I know what you are saying.

If some other power came here and tried to tell me that their new government will be better than our old one there would be trouble.

I and many other armed Americans would fight like hell.

I think you are trying to say something like that.

Ricardo

Off to watch soccer now; ARG-NED promises to be a great game

Demiurge

HTrookie wrote:

Don't get me wrong; I am not saying Saddam was good or bad; all I say is that we should not expect all of them to peacefully accept us, it doesn't matter what religion they are. No one should be surprised that violence does not stop against U.S. and the governement established with the help of U.S. It has not stopped, and it will not stop.

You won't say Saddam Hussein was bad? :eek:

Do a Google search on Iraqi Mass Graves.

Ricardo

Skynut wrote:

I know what you are saying.

If some other power came here and tried to tell me that their new government will be better than our old one there would be trouble.

I and many other armed Americans would fight like hell.

I think you are trying to say something like that.

Right; and that would happen even if the new government was better...it's just the nature of some human beings

cheddar

HTrookie wrote:

Don't get me wrong; I am not saying Saddam was good or bad; all I say is that we should not expect all of them to peacefully accept us, it doesn't matter what religion they are. No one should be surprised that violence does not stop against U.S. and the governement established with the help of U.S. It has not stopped, and it will not stop.

The majority of the people continue to vote and in much higher percentage numbers than our own recent California primary. What makes you think that nothing will ever change? It already has...

Ricardo

Demiurge wrote:

You won't say Saddam Hussein was bad? :eek:

Do a Google search on Iraqi Mass Graves.

Oh well....

That is not the point...but you don't seem to get it, do you.

Demiurge

Skynut wrote:

I know what you are saying.

If some other power came here and tried to tell me that their new government will be better than our old one there would be trouble.

I and many other armed Americans would fight like hell.

I think you are trying to say something like that.

The people of Iraq aren't fighting us. It's been all outside insurgent groups. I am sure some loyal to Saddam Hussein are still fighting.

Ricardo

cheddar wrote:

The majority of the people continue to vote and in much percentage numbers than our own recent California primary. What makes you think that nothing will ever change? It already has...

And one last one...the game started.

I did not say nothing has changed; I said violence has not stopped, and it will not stop until all the people against the U.S. are dead. You tell me when is that going to happen.

Demiurge

HTrookie wrote:

Oh well....

That is not the point...but you don't seem to get it, do you.

No, I don't see your point. Clarify.

If you think the people of Iraq are the primary people fighting us you're sadly mistaken.

Ricardo

Demiurge wrote:

The people of Iraq aren't fighting us. It's been all outside insurgent groups. I am sure some loyal to Saddam Hussein are still fighting.

Right; our soldiers can freely move in the country with absolutely no risk.

Demiurge

HTrookie wrote:

And one last one...the game started.

I did not say nothing has changed; I said violence has not stopped, and it will not stop until all the people against the U.S. are dead. You tell me when is that going to happen.

The violence stops when a government has laws set up and there are consequences for their actions. The impetus is on the new Iraqi government for that. They're fighting because the last thing the insurgents want is democracy in the middle east.

Peace can only be maintained. Those fighting us have no civility.

cheddar

HTrookie wrote:

And one last one...the game started.

I did not say nothing has changed; I said violence has not stopped, and it will not stop until all the people against the U.S. are dead. You tell me when is that going to happen.

There are still Japanese that are mad as hell at US military bases there. But our military stopped worrying about ex-Tojo fanatics a long time ago. It may take a decade or two. But you saying that it will never change just doesn't ring true. People change, societies change, even within our lifetime, even under US military occupation and with a US imposed and authored constitution, like in Japan.