most expensive cables

Airplay355

Join the cable swap thing...Do we still do that?

DarqueKnight

There are many other things which affect sound quality besides the commonly listed electrical performance parameters such as output power, input impedance, output impedance, total harmonic distortion, etc.

There are many physical things that affect the electrical performance of a component such as the circuit design (i.e. the physical path that a signal takes through a circuit), quality of electrical parts, and construction quality.

Take two 100 watt solid state amplifiers with identical electrical performance specifications. Amp #1 uses parts of "adequately" good quality and a thin steel chassis and case with no internal damping material. Amp #2 uses high quality, tight tolerance parts placed on mil spec circuit boards. The amp chassis and case is heavy metal with lots of vibration damping. Both amps may have the same standard electrical performance measurements. Do you think amp #1 and amp #2 will sound the same?

Better quality parts and constuction techniques allow an audio signal to maintain more of its integrity as it passes through a component. Those who are audio modification enthusiasts know that simply adding high quality damping material to amps, preamps, and speakers can noticeably improve the sound. Another commonly applied upgrade is replacing electrolytic capacitors with high quality film capacitors.

It is possible to measure and quantify the effects of non-electrical parameters (vibration, parts quality, etc.) on sound quality (signal integrity). Unfortunately, manufacturers either do not do it for various reasons or, if they do perform these types of measurements, they do not want to make such information publicly available. For example, manufactureres of quality audio amplifiers know that a heavy, well-damped chassis and case improves sound quality. However, most of them do not measure the electrical effects of particular amounts of damping material on sound quality because it is prohibitively expensive to do so. Those that do are not likely to release such data because it would be divulging a proprietary design and constuction technique. They will mention that they use vibration damping material in their sales brochures, but will not provide technical details.

For some, it is counter-intuitive to accept that a physical phenomenon like case vibration could have an effect on electrical performance. Think of it this way: increasing vibration is adding kinetic energy. Electrons moving through a wire, capacitor, resistor, etc. are nothing more than charged particles moving through matter. As particles in motion, the electrons have a certain amount of kinetic energy. Increasing the kinetic energy of the matter that the electrons are moving through has measurable effects on the signal (electrons) moving through the matter. However, it requires expensive equipment to accurately measure those effects. A more easily measured physical effect is the increase in electrical resistance that occurs with an increase in temperature.

Uber expensive audio is no different from uber expensive anything else. Sometimes you are buying a lot more performance and quality. Sometimes you are buying a little more performance and quality and a lot more prestige. Sometimes you are just buying placebo effect and......snake oil.

Tour2ma

Airplay355 wrote:

Join the cable swap thing...Do we still do that?

No...

W WALDECKER

BjornB17 wrote:

Fair enough I don't mean to make enemies here. I'm just trying to a prove a point which a strongly belive in. :eek:

Could have fooled me !

aaharvel

F1nut wrote:

Maybe this will help you understand. A watt is a watt, correct....this we can agree on. Then why does XX's 100 wpc amp sound so different than XZY's 100 wpc amp? I mean all watts are the same, something that can be measured, yet they still sound different. How can that be....think about it.

i'll be re-evaluating my position on this issue now

beardog03

DarqueKnight ,

I hope one day our paths cross...
I would like to meet you someday....
very good analogy !

rocketman

DarqueKnight,that is food for thought.How about the extream temps and vibrations in autos?With all the computers and such you would think a person could not have a good stereo system in an auto.
To add more fuel to the inferno how about going toRoger Russels web sight and see what people with 40 plus years in audio that have degrees in audio enginering and have nothing to loose or gain with what they found out.They also traveld the country and did blind a/b tests on both speaker cable and interconnects.All backed up with hard data and what all the people heard or thought they heard.They also hold several patents in speaker design.There is also a couple of articles from Stereo Review from early 1990's then the same subject addressed several years later.
I do know that I broke one of the tabs off of one of my xlr to rca cables and I have got it stuck loosly in the female rca jack on my tube ampas I wait for a replacement from Markertech. I can't hear a difference but if someone else doe's I won't hold it against them.

Tour2ma

Good God...

What part of "if I believe wire makes a difference I don't care what others think of wire or me" don't you get?

shack

Tour2ma wrote:

Good God...

What part of "if I believe wire makes a difference I don't care what others think of wire or me" don't you get?

Bruce, while I knew you rarely made an appearance in these topics, I wasn't aware you were an avowed member of the "I don't care" group. Welcome.

And if I had a dollar for everytime someone told me to go read the Roger Russell article on this and other forums (which I have read BTW)....I could go buy a nice pair of AudioQuest King Cobras and have some change left over...

Tour2ma

Yup, and I am sure that once upon a time I was responsible for one of those dollars.

I have little doubt that Russell's opinion was valid, but that was based on experiences that are approaching twenty-years old.

madmax

rocketman wrote:

how about going toRoger Russels web sight and see what people with 40 plus years in audio that have degrees in audio enginering and have nothing to loose or gain with what they found out.They also traveld the country and did blind a/b tests on both speaker cable and interconnects.All backed up with hard data and what all the people heard or thought they heard.They also hold several patents in speaker design.There is also a couple of articles from Stereo Review from early 1990's then the same subject addressed several years later.

No matter how many people get together, no matter what their status, no one can tell me that different grapefruits all taste the same. I know better, I've tasted them for myself. Cables are not much different other than they are a little harder to swallow.
madmax

Tour2ma

madmax wrote:

Cables are not much different other than they are a little harder to swallow.

LOL... interesting way to put it...

EDIT: ... and Rio Ruby Reds are the only grapefruit worth eating and I've read where if you place one in just the right spot on each of your speakers...

madmax

Tour2ma wrote:

EDIT: ... and Rio Ruby Reds are the only grapefruit worth eating...

Not true, my friend. I recently compared the Rio Ruby Reds directly to some Texas Reds. The Texas Reds were slightly better. Not night and day, mind you, but it was noticeable. Both are WAY better than anything else on the market. BTW, I had 20 lbs of each courtesy of Sams Club and fully enjoyed both!
madmax

beardog03

Sam`s club ?
you didn`t even go to one of those fruit botiques ?!!

you know if you go to one of those side of the road places, they are much better, with better prices than those big box places..!!

madmax

Not around here man... Where I used to live this was true.
madmax

BjornB17

madmax wrote:

Not true, my friend. I recently compared the Rio Ruby Reds directly to some Texas Reds. The Texas Reds were slightly better. Not night and day, mind you, but it was noticeable. Both are WAY better than anything else on the market. BTW, I had 20 lbs of each courtesy of Sams Club and fully enjoyed both!
madmax

This is nonsense. If one grapefruit is better, you should be able to prove it scientifically by taking measurements of acidity, sugar content, etc... Grapefruits are all the same. If you spend tons of money on a grapefruit, you need to take agriculture classes at the local university.

Tour2ma

I have the data that correlates grapefruit pH with their sound quality... nothing on taste, however...

beardog03

BjornB17 wrote:

This is nonsense. If one grapefruit is better, you should be able to prove it scientifically by taking measurements of acidity, sugar content, etc... Grapefruits are all the same. If you spend tons of money on a grapefruit, you need to take agriculture classes at the local university.

so according to you, all grapefruits are exactly the same, because they are grapefruits..

and you will probably say that all snow flakes are the same because they are made up of the same material...in the same manner

Scientificaly speaking of course.... :rolleyes:

madmax

beardog03 wrote:

and you will probably say that all snow flakes are the same because they are made up of the same material...in the same manner

Scientificaly speaking of course.... :rolleyes:

Everyone knows yellow snow tastes different...
madmax

beardog03

different composition man....

something has been added that "colors" the sound...er , taste..!


What we need is MORE COWBELL...!!

BjornB17

beardog03 wrote:

different composition man....

something has been added that "colors" the sound...er , taste..!


What we need is MORE COWBELL...!!

i think you missed the part where i was mocking myself Anyway, i'm not sure if you can have yellow snow-flakes lol.... not while they are in the air atleast.

shack

I don't know anything about grapefruits....I do know mellons though...

beardog03

BjornB17 wrote:

i think you missed the part where i was mocking myself Anyway, i'm not sure if you can have yellow snow-flakes lol.... not while they are in the air atleast.

depends on how good your aim is..!!

Shack,
This may br true, but...

Gotta give credit where credit is due...

The spasticpitbull knows his mellons...!!!

BjornB17

beardog03 wrote:

depends on how good your aim is..!!

You see, i was thinking the exact same thing, but i then thought that one the perfectly-aimed stream hits the flake, it would melt. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Facts and figures would also help in deciding this

beardog03

the fact that you figure that you could actually hit one...well, you know..!

madmax

Hey BjornB17,
Seriously, I have no problem with you questioning the validity of sounds that cannot be measured, but... I am an engineer, and truthfully, I am normally put off by people who cannot listen for themselves because of their training. To give it straight, when an engineer comes on and says there can be no difference because of the properties of wire, I just blow them off as not being open minded enough to understand that hearing qualities exceed measurement qualities. I work with very minute signals which cannot be verified in the measurement world. We are talking 1 uV signals through 30 feet of cable. Let me tell you from experience, those who think they know everything don't make more than 9 mos in my field of engineering. They just can't go with test experience vs knowledge of how things really react. I hope that you will re-access the possibilities.
madmax

Airplay355

The truth is out there scully.

LuSh

Bjorn,

I understand where you're coming from I really do. I suggest you do a little more exploring in the world of audio before proclaiming to the gods people must be crazy. Nobody else has mentioned it, and I'm known as the local jerk so I'll just out right out and say it. You have a HK home theatre receiver with Polk Audio Monitor speakers, I'm sure it's musical and offers great value. But perhaps, you'd like to step outside of your local Tweeters/Best Buy/Circuit City and listen to a dealers setup with a number of different cables before preaching to others. It's obvious you've never tried anything different and you're stuck in your ways. That's fine. Your inexperience is glaring however.

I've had a number of cables come and go, some made differences like my current Audience speaker wires and Harmonic Technology interconnects. Some however did not, like my Carda's 300B interconnects and $500 Moray James power cords. And that was fine, it was a learning experience. Realize also that there are a number of speaker manufactors out there that make high quality speakers that use very good quality internal wiring from company's like Carda's. As it stands right now I could never see myself owning $6k Siltech interconnects or $7k Kimber 3035 speaker wire because of two reasons. A) I don't have the bank for that My system would probably hold back any improvements there may or may not be...a horrid bottleneck if you will. I would never for a second though ridicule somebody that uses them (and I know somebody that I have learned alot from that currently uses those cables). And if it makes you feel better he still uses the Kimber but sold the Siltech's for some cheaper ($300) Oritek interconnects.

There is one golden rule you have to remember about Audio. The vast majority interested in this hobby are relatively smart. Few people buy $7k speaker wire because they think its the best or want to make a social statement. The people that buy to impress their friends usually haven't heard of companies like NBS, Siltech, Elrod, Electraglide or any other high quality wire. So don't brush off these people as idiots. Chances they are actually quite sucessfull in their choosen profession in order to afford such cables. The people that make most of the mistakes are the guys who know a thing or two about audio and buy top of the line gear from company's that are recognized. An example would be somebody who wanted a great 2 channel rig and bought a top of the line AVR740 HK HT receiver, HK DVD player and Infinity speakers connected with Best Buy's top of the line monster cable. A total waste of money. But he'd just as soon laff at another person who bought a $1500 powercord for his amp.

It's ok to debate, but you'll find out soon enough, nothing in this hobby is a sure thing. So embrace it, and enjoy it. Don't hate, participate.

PolkThug

Transparent OPUS MM
MSRP: $30,750.00

http://www.aurant.com/signaturefeature.php
http://www.transparentcable.com/news/opus_mm_new.html

PolkThug

LuSh wrote:

Don't hate, participate.

Word!