What to get....

MacLeod

Nah, I think Tweeter is the goods. I would consider them a step above CC or BB but not up to par with high end shops.

The best shop I have nearby is Radio Clinic. Not only do they routinely compete and support local competitions but their installs are world class.

One of their installers 'glassed up his Montero pretty wickedly. It looked like it came from Mitsubishi like that. If I ever need 'glass work done, they will be the ones to do it.

exalted512

wow, that looks great. I'm hoping my next truck install looks as smooth and clean as that. I'm still contemplating painting it or vinyling it. Vinyl would be much cheaper and cover up mess ups better, but paint is just so clean
-Cody

MacLeod

I will probably never try any glassing. It just aint my bag. I dont have the patience or temperment to work with it.

Wood is much more up my alley. You get pissed off or frustrated, you leave it for a day or two then come back all refreshed and ready to go. Fiberglass requires a lot more and constant attention. I have way too short a temper for that.

exalted512

Yea, you gotta stick with your thing...and wood work is def. yours. I can honestly say I dont know anyone else in the world that can make a box out of only 4 sides.
-Cody

MacLeod

Just cant let it go can ya? LOL

exalted512

not really...
-Cody

audiobliss

exalted512 wrote:

not really...
-Cody

ditto

I mean, that is such a unique skill....:D:D:D:D

exalted512

audiobliss wrote:

ditto

I mean, that is such a unique skill....:D:D:D:D

word:D
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

the best battery terminals are marine lead terminals. - they're 3 bucks each at pep boys -- they're nothing fancy... the heavy lead ones with the wing nut screw on them

why?

they don't rust.

lead is one of the only metals on earth that will still conduct electricity even when it has oxidized (lead does not rust - it oxidizes like copper -- a black filmy substance forms on it over time -- that substance still conducts electricity at nearly the same efficiency as lead itself. rust does not) -- i had both rockford and streetwires gold and platinum battery terminals -- they rust out horribly. and you end up with corroded rotted mess that has poor conductivity. good quality terminals with dielectric grease or even brake drum grease slathered on them... held down with a wing nut to a marine terminal -- its the best conductivity you're ever going to get.

... my last word on the fuse and then i'll shut up.

"He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin. "

that's horseshit.

if it were the case, then 4awg would have a 60 amp rating when used in most automotive installations.

you will drop roughly 2 volts over the length of 4awg if pumping 150 amps through it to the trunk. -- that means at 12.5 volts (key off) your amps are feeding off 10.5 volts...

at 60 amps - the reccomended maximum current capacity of 4awg over a 15-20 foot run, you'll drop just over half a volt... so 12.5 yields 12, which makes a lot more sense.

keep this **** up and you're going to have people starting fires because they put 200A fuses on 4 awg and thought that just because the fuse said 200A meant they could put a 200A load on the line. at 200A you'd see a huge voltage drop nearing 1/4 of total battery voltage... possibly enough to melt a cheap wire jacket under carpet or in an enclosed area, and cause sparking against the body anywhere within the chassis - in places that are covered with carpet and such - textiles are very flammable, expecially ones with lots of glue and other **** in them. with such a large fuse, there is the definite possibility of multiple repeated sparking before it ever blows... if it blows. painted metal surfaces are subject to intermittent conductivity due to a number of different factors including but not limited to paints that never really cure, thin or worn coats that do provide just enough insulation for arcing, but not sustained conduction.

i'm done on that.

exalted512

so you shouldnt run more than 60A through 4awg on a 15' length?

or did you mean something else?????
-Cody

brettw22

One last question before I put the order in.......(I hope):

What's the advantage to a fused distro block over a non-fused?

PoweredByDodge

fused distro block? -- just another set of fuses to change. if the fuses are very difficult to get at on the amplifier once its in the car, then a fused distro block will aloow you to locate the block in an easily accessible place - so when they blow - you dont have to go nuts trying ot get that the amp -- i have never needed them --- but they look nice i suppose. with one amp - you dont even need a distribution block at all.

--- and yes, i meant over a 15-20 foot run you should not run more than 60 A through 4 gauge.

its not a hard number.. 62... 58... whatever... but roughly 60A. the better the quality of wire, you may be able to squeak a few more amps before you start seeing that big voltage drop - but on average... 60 A.

I'm running about 150A through 4 awg over a 2 1/2 foot length. that's only a 0.2 V drop. but i'm also dropping almost 3/4 of a volt due to sucking sometimes as much as 300A through a single line of 0 awg. the result is dropping about a volt by the time the juice hits the amplifier. but at right around 14 V that means i'm seeing 13 -- so i'm not complaining. and 0.75 volts dropped in the huge heat sink that is a 0 gauge hunk of wire results in a lot better thermal dissipation than 2 volts through a 4 gauge line. i should really be using the twin 0 gauge lines i had before, but i got sick of all the goddamn wire.

exalted512

When I'm figuring out wiring and such, I usually look here.
http://www.the12volt.com/info/recwirsz.asp

Lets say instead of 15' it was 16'. Lets say the amperage stayed the same(When in fact it would go down), so 60A of power on 4awg for a 16' length.

According to their graphs, 16' can hold up to 600w when using 4awg, more than that you have to up in power wire size. Then go down to the current draw by power graph where 600 watts is 96A. Thats why I was wondering where you got 60A from, seemed a little low to me.
-Cody

exalted512

And PBD is right with the fused distro-block, but some amps arent fused, like my fosgates, this is where they come in handy. An extra level of protection for your few hundred dollars of equipment isnt necessarily a bad thing either
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

the 12 volt's chart is fuzzy at best. i've looked at it before and don't agree with it.

one main reason is this -- that "600w" -- is that 600w though a class d amp? or 600 w through a class AB or 600 w through a class A tube amp?

600 through a class a is about 166 A
600 through an AB is about 62A
600 through a class D is about 48 - 50 A

like i said, its fuzzy at best.

the only way to really determine current draw is...

Amplifier output power total all channels driven at lowest load (for the 400.4 thats 100 x 4 @ 2 ohms) -- so 400 watts.

divide that by the effiiency of the amp - use 0.25 for class A / 0.65 for AB / 0.85 for D.

then divide again by 14.4 volts (or whatever voltage the power you used in step 1 is rated at.)

for the 400.4 that comes to a draw of 43 A -- since it's got two 30A fuses, that makes sense and is probably very close to what the real draw is.

the chart to use is then the American Wire Gauge chart. it aims for a drop of no more than 0.7 volts along the line.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

the column to go by is the last one "maximum amps for power transmission" --- not the 2nd last "max for chassis wiring".

chassis wiring in general is considered to be short runs.

for example, inside an amplifier, there are thinner power cables than the 4 or 8 gauge we normally use to hook the amp up. inside, from where we screw the 4 gauge down, there may only be 12 or 14 gauge wire leading to the circuit board. some amps are direct solder terminals, but anywho -- if/when wire is used, its much thinner. these short 6 inch or less type runs are considered chassis wiring. that's why i can get away with 4 awg for 150 A loads of only about 2 feet.

build a house, wire a garage, wire a professional ampitheatre sound system... and you're forced to use american wire gauge electricians guide / fireman's code standards (the table i posted). deviation results in either being sued or thrown off the job-site. it is that way for a reason. the 12 volt is a great resource, but that table is very misleading.

neomagus00

well... according to that, a 2kW (class-d) system needs triple-nought cable, which doesn't seem accurate... to me...

PoweredByDodge

2kw class d = 160A

0 gauge is rated at 150A ... close enough.

neomagus00

2000 W / 0.85 = 2352.9
2352.9 / 13.8 = 170 (yeah, 13.8, but it's more realistic... assuming the 2kW rating is at 12V, this should actually be a stingy estimate... i'm pretty sure...)
that's 00... where i got 000, i have no idea

brettw22

I had to call Streetwires to ask them a question and while I had them on the phone they said that the fuse rating you want to go with is basically 10 amps per 100 watts of your amplifiers. If you're running 400 watt amp (as I will be) then I should get a 40 amp(they said 60 ANL would be fine) is what I should be using.

I asked why with their single amp kits they have a 100 AGU fuse and with their double amp kits they have an 80 amp AGU fuse and they said that they really can't guess what people are putting in their system, but to use the above calculation to get the appropriate fuse (whether your amp is fused or not).

So......I'm just getting a 60 amp right now and gonna call it a done deal.....

There really does need to be an industry standard on this because this is insane to have everyone saying completely different things......

MacLeod

So what youre trying to say is,"Mac and PBD you guys were right all along and I should be flogged for not listening to you in the first place and not taking your word over an Aggie".

brettw22

That's the problem......it depends on who I ask, and surely you know better than for a HA to tell a CA person they know what they're talking about......:D

MacLeod

LMAO!!

PM Josh or Thom. They usually dont take sides in arguments like this (I dont blame em either) but theyd probably answer ya in a PM.

All I can say is in 15 years of fiddling with CA Ive never used anything bigger than an 80 amp in my line and have yet to burn anything down........but Im still young yet.

exalted512

MacLeod wrote:

but Im still young yet.

who told you that lie?
I'll retract my initial statement about having a 200A fuse, but in my experience I've never seen an ANL fuse burn, melt, gets its physical characteristics changed my by melting. Ive seen this numerous times with 80A AGU fuses. But after the site that I linked to it says its more of a problem with the fuse itself than the amperage.

So here is my new and improved statement. Get a 80-150A ANL fuse and be done with it.

and dont ever doubt an aggie<----
-Cody

brettw22

I use to live in TX.....and I'm sorry to say that's why I won't ever go back (except for the obligatory visit to the fam every few years)......past that, tx can burn and I'd be ok with it.....:D

EDIT: The 'sorry' was that I had to endure that hellhole, not because I felt bad for not wanting to go back......whew......can't have that distinction not cleared up

MacLeod

I loved Texas and consider Temple Texas to be my adopted home town. I lived there for several years and although Chattanooga will always be home, if I had to spend the rest of my life in Texas I would be ok with it.

exalted512

i wouldnt really want to go anywhere else
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

rule #1 -- i'm not always 100% right, but i'm never wrong... and i'm usually right.

rule #2 -- told ya so.

PoweredByDodge

as far as the 2kw amp thing...

the only amp i know that does that kind of power is the sledge hammer and the ck4.0 from zapco. i'm sure there are others, but lets look at it this way...

two 81000d's is what i'm running right now --- at 12.5 volts, they're each rated at 1000 w. they're birth sheeted at roughly 1200w at 12.5v though.

were i to run them both at full power... 2400w / .85 / 12.5 = 225A, then i would have to run 000 triple/0 wire.

when i did have them both going at full power, i was actually using two cables of 0 gauge.

wire gauge size does not "double" as you go down one size.

00 is not "double" 0.

diameter 0 is 0.3249"
diameter 000 is 0.4096"

cross sectional area for current conduction 0 = 0.083 square inches
cross sectional area for current conduction 000 = 0.13157 square inches.

guess what... two individual 0 gauge lines = 0.166 square inches... that's THICKER than 000 gauge.

so yes --- to run 225A you need 000 gauge or two lines of 0 gauge -- and my habits back up my statements.

normally, in the current truck, i don't draw anywhere near that - daily listening habits have peak current draws of roughly 192 A, but like I said, i'm seeing voltage drops, which isn't good. when I try to really bump the thing to show it off (and thus the gains on the sub amps go up up up - and the draw starts to get near that 300 mark) I end up seeing worse voltage drops at the end of the line and you can tell the amplifiers are suffering from rail voltage drop. no amount of capacitance will help that... the current draw is just too excessive.

neomagus00

well explained... so what are you going to do to help that crazy draw?

PoweredByDodge

honestly - as stupid as it sounds, nothing at the moment.

i had initially been of a mind to make the truck "really loud SQ".

now that i'm still working on building this crossover (i have a final tomorrow and a paper due too - once that's over - crossover building i go), i want to see how it turns out.

if it comes out the way i want it to , then i'll be working on getting the sound "just right" -- once that's done, then i'll blend the subs in. i tune it with the subwoofers shut off at first and then blend them in once everything else is where i want it.

i imagine that with this setup, i will probably be actually lowering my current needs because i'll be using less power (gains lower and lower). i actually found that when everything is working hte way its intended to, and you have a good spectrum and soundstage in a vehicle, less power can sometimes sound "just as loud" as an unbalanced system with no soundtage and way more power.

once i figure out what i want to do as far as that goes, then i can decide if i want to leave it alone or not.

if "not" then i'll just go get another 15 feet of 0 gauge (i still don't know where my 2nd run of it went from before... i think i had cut it up to used it to rewire the alternator to battery - battery to chassis/ground connections for both the new batteries in this truck when i got it) and run a 2nd 0 gauge line back to the main power bus underneath all the capacitors and distro blocks. i would then possibly change the power lines going to the 81000d's from the distro blocks from 4 gauge to 2 gauge.