What to get....

brettw22

Just out of curiousity, what does the amp in the front do? Does it have anything to do with fire possibility from (granted I'm just putting in one amp) too much heat being generated from some of these cars that have 2000watts in them and possibly causing a fire?

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brett - waaaiiit! save some cash - and aggravation... get a streetwires kit from overstock....

here....

10 awg which will do ya up to like 375-400 watts rms.
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=9&detail=ok&PN=06202
$10 bucks and its streetwires

4 channel interconnects
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=8&detail=ok&PN=A3-5M
45 bucks / pair, you'll need 2 pair.
again, streetwires -- esoteric audio A3, streetwires is esoteric's "car" edition... the A3's are a home interconnect, but dude... they're pimp if i ever saw pimp.



... or if you wanna be cool... get the best interconnect RCA's money can buy....
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=8&detail=ok&PN=A5-5M
$110 bucks per pair, you'd need 2 pair... those are A5's, I've got A3's and they're quite nice I'll tell ya!

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exalted512 wrote:

the fuse in the front has absolutely nothing to do with the size of your amp. Youre more likely to start a fire with an 80A fuse in the front than a 150-250A fuse in the front when using 4awg. Get the 200A and dont worry about having to buy another one later.
-Cody

what the hell are you talking about?

you want the inline fuse to pop before the fuses on the amps. not much before, btu still before. that's why it has to be a little smaller. albeit the fuse at the battery is dual purpose - protecting against shorts in the cable along the path of travel, but it still serves the other purpose.

upon what grounds do you say an 80A fuse is more likely to cause a fire than a 200 a fuse?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

a fuse isn't going to cause a fire, but too large of a fuse will prevent a fuse block from preventing a fire...

brett -- take the fuse rating on the amp... i dont know what they are, but say it's two 20A fuses... that's 40A... go find a 35 A inline fuse. you get the idea.

brettw22

Decisions decisions......

As attractive as the $10 price is for the 10awg Streetwires kit, I don't think that would serve me well should I decide that I want to add another amp to the mix. The ANL fuses only go so low as 60 amp, and I can't find any information on the Polk site for what the fuse rating is of the 400.4. As I said before, I'm the type that would prefer to buy extra headroom in things so I have room to grow into them rather than buy just barely what will work with the current install, then have to replace everything when/if I put in more stuff. Granted, I'm working on an IF there, but if I act anything with car audio like I do with home audio, it's more a certainty than not.

I'll look into the A3's when I get home from work......I don't want to go completely schitzo on something that ultimately noone will see because this thing is going under a seat (I hope) and it's not being done for show. I also kinda like the look of the Streetwires (i know, just argued that they won't be seen.....i'm complicated like that), so we'll see (or not...ha).

exalted512

The fuse at the firewall is to protect the power wire, not the amp. The 400.4 has fuses onboard, those are to protect the amp. I have seen 4 cars with fuses that are small (2 60s and 2 80s) that burnt up the power wire because the fuse didnt pop. If you get to big a current draw in a split second time, it can melt the fuse to where it doesnt pop. A bigger ANL fuse wont do that. Thats why a 200A fuse will be less likely to start a fire than an 80.

Thats why I say go with at least a 150 up front with 4 awg, because I've seen 80A fuses be the cause of a fire whereas I've never even heard of it happening with a 150+ on any wire, much less 4awg.
-Cody

MacLeod

I strongly disagree with ya on this bro. The primary purpose of the inline fuse is to protect from fire! That is the whole reason you fuse the power wire BEFORE it passes thru the firewall. If there is a faulty installation and the power wire's insulation is stripped at one point and arcs against some metal, an 80 amp fuse is much more likely to pop thus stopping the flow of current and not catching the carpet on fire. A 200 amp fuse may not pop at all and up goes the interior of your car in pretty yellow flames.

The reason you dont hear about this happening with 150 amp systems is that 99% of the systems out there run 80 or less. Anybody that is going to run 150 amps is generally knowledgable enough or a professional that they will perform a proper install and will be much less likely to burn their car to the ground. All things being equal, a 80 amp fuse is much more likely to prevent a fire than a 200 amp especially if youre only pulling 35 amps off a 80 amp OEM charging system.


Brett - AGU fuses and holders are cheaper than ANL and are more readily available if you need replacements in a hurry (you can get replacement AGU fuses at Kmart) so I always use them. They only go up to 80 amps which is all youll need. Im running nearly 1000 watts and only have a 80 amp fuse and its plenty.

Oh and CLEAN OUT YOUR PM BOX.......slacker!

exalted512

if a spark happens, a 200A fuse will blow. Sparks draw lots of current, theres no way it would spark and not blow it. 80A fuses on the other hand have been knowned to basically weld themselves together and not blow. The main purpose of that fuse is to protect the power wire, not the amp. Go high, be safe
-Cody

MacLeod

Correct me if Im wrong, but if youre using a 200 amp fuse and a stock 80 amp alternator, even if the wire arcs out wouldnt that just mean the wire is being fed only 80 amps? No sarcasm intended, genuine question.

Vinnie or John, your expertise is needed.

brettw22

just back to the hotel........my inbox has been cleaned up a bit

I'm prepared to be given **** for this.......but......I like the look of the ANL fuses/holder better.......lol......so an ANL it will be.......just a matter of the fuse size.

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MacLeod wrote:

Correct me if Im wrong, but if youre using a 200 amp fuse and a stock 80 amp alternator, even if the wire arcs out wouldnt that just mean the wire is being fed only 80 amps? No sarcasm intended, genuine question.

Vinnie or John, your expertise is needed.

... you got a battery don't you?

Ever Arc-weld before? It's fun stuff... you take a set of 4 awg jumper cables - you know, the good kind that Jewish guys buy. Hook to + and - on battery... then hook a piece of metal (say a 1/2" steel water pipe) to the - jumper cable. get some cheap metal like nikel and jamb it in the positive jumper cable... touch the positive (nikel) to the plate (-) and see what happens. you'll never get that **** apart. It's how you fix busted tie rods when you're on the thruway in no -man's land and there's no one there to help you. Just have to be careful you don't destroy your battery.

By the way - the 200A will not blow anywhere near soon enough.

I had a bunch of 200A fuses in this piece of scrap truck I have now when I was setting up the new battery terminals for the first time (after hacking out the factory ****).

I arc-welded the starter cable 2 awg wire terminal to the cable because it was too thick of a terminal to crimp without a vise. And I couldn't get at the starter easy to remove the whole wire. I arc-welded with a 250A slow-blow fuse on the line. That was to protect the battery. The fuse did go after a few minutes of "on" and "off" and "on" and "off" to get the terminal all welded together, but the job was done, and were i doing it near a leaky gas line or something of that nature, i'd be up in flames.

You should have seen the friggin sparks.

It was like the fourth of july under my hood.

An 80A fuse would have popped almost instantly. I don't buy that "if you get a surge of power" nonsense.

The short circuit current of ANY battery has NOTHING to do with the amplifier current draw. Electricity takes the path of least resistance. If you have 0 ohms and 1 ohm... its ALL going through the 0 ohm path.

So lets say you accidently drive a screw through one of your power lines... or better yet, lets say you get into an accident - minor fender bender - and your power line gets pinched, shorts it out to the metal of the vehicle.... you think it matters what friggin size amplifier or alternator you have? No.

Unless you have a 350A Ohio Generator under there, then 80% or better (ballpark guess) of the instantaneous current rush to and through that shorted out spot is going to come from your battery or batteries. The normal 80 to 120 amp alternator isn't going to make a big dent.

You're going to dump 500, 600, 1,000 true ampheres through that line. You don't think it's going to pop like a pimple on a 16 year old's ****?

and as far as "fuse makeup"... they're not going to weld shut... if they do, they're **** fuses that are of god knows what kind of construction. A fuse is a simple piece of junk. The line of wire or metal between the two endcaps or tabs is nothing more than a piece of metal that will literally catch fire and melt or disentegrate after reaching a certain temperature... that temperature is a result of the heat created by current flow through it, and the SMALL BUT STILL PRESENT voltage drop across it. heat heat heat. pop pop pop.

slow blow fuses are sometimes just (example) 85 amp fuses labeled as 80's... that's the cheaper kind. the better slow blows are made in such a manner that they can sustain (example) 80 amps for a certain given amount of time (say 4 seconds), after that, they'll get too hot and pop. fast blows will pop virtually immediately upon reaching that 80 amp mark. they're both exponential curves. one's a bit sharper.

brettw22

Ok.....while I think I grasped your story about welding from a battery, I have no idea what it meant in regards to which size fuse I should get.

brettw22

Cody or Mac......

On those Streetwires ZN3 4 channel, is it just a single cable spliced into 4 ends on each side or is it 4 cables run parallel?

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brett it means go with the 80A fuse.

preferably, little rule of thumb...

add up the fuses of the amplifiers you are using (you're using just one amp so say its 40A - guessing). you would then get a fuse equal to or slightly lower than that number.

if you're using multiple amplifiers (say three polk 400.4's --- that's 120A - again guessing) --- then knock about 15% off that... and snag a 100 amp fuse.

but, since you're in love with the ANL's and the lowest you can get is 80A - then get an 80A and call it a day.

but wait - i'll just go the extra mile and solve the problem all together... you like the way the anl's look, and that's your motivating factor. no problem -- how about a "mini-anl".

there is a new style of fuse on the market - started by phoenix gold, but now streetwires and stinger also make them... its called "AFS", nicknamed "MIDI" and "MINI KM" - it's all the same thing though -- they're ANL fuses but only about 3/4 the physical size. They are available in TONS of ratings from down at 40 amps up to about 200A

and - just to find out - the ACTUAL fuses on the c400.4 are TWO 30A BLADES (60A)

here's a fuse holder --> http://www.cardomain.com/item/STISFH1MDPT
$8 in stock - it's a stinger brand holder -- the streetwires one is out of stock and 8 bucks more.

here's a fuse --> http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRAFS60
$7 for a twin pack. they're 60A "afs" - streetwires brand fuse, couldn't find the stinger ones... they're all the same though. they're just blue plastic anyway nobody can tell what brand teh fuse is.

again the AFS is a smaller identical twin brother to the ANL.

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brettw22 wrote:

Cody or Mac......

On those Streetwires ZN3 4 channel, is it just a single cable spliced into 4 ends on each side or is it 4 cables run parallel?

the ZN3 4 channels are FOUR pair of wires, twisted together... actually each pair is twisted together, then the 4 pairs are twisted together (looks like a chick's braided hair). then that is wrapped in a clear plastic jacket.

At the ends, you've got that main line splitting into 4 individual RCA jack ends, color coded.

ever since mitek bought out streetwires, they have not been making "individual jacket" cables. the only ones that still are individual jackets (glued together in the middle, much like speaker wire... where there are two pieces with that "line" in the middle of the wire) are the low noise 2.0's, but i believe those are being discontinued. the zero noise series is far better.

i had been the biggest advocate of the zero noise 5's for many years, even after they were no longer sold on the market. damn good wire.

esoteric made good **** - and now mitek/esoteric is making good ****.

exalted512

Well all fuses can hold more than their rated capacity. How long just depends on how much amperage. A 100A fuse can hold 200A for about 5 minutes. same fuse can hold about 110 for 2+ hours. Thats with ANL fuses. Obviously every fuse is different, but thats something we experimented with in school.

If something gets grounded out, then youre going to draw upwards up 800As. More than enough to blow any 350A fuse almost instantenously.

Heres a piece of a website i found today.
"Poor Quality AGU fuses:
The biggest problem with the AGU fuse is the quality. I am NOT saying that there are no good quality AGU fuses but there are a large number of manufacturers that make fuses of questionable quality. The lower quality fuses have a problem with the solder that connects the end caps to the fusible element. There is too much resistance in the solder connection which (with current flow close to their rated current) creates enough heat to melt the solder connection which leads to a melted fuse holder or a fuse with higher than normal resistance. The higher resistance will cause more of a voltage drop than a new fuse. If you can find some BUSS or LITTELFUSE brand AGU fuses, you won't be as likely to have problems. All of these problems can be alleviated by using Maxi fuses in the first place.

AGU fuse holders:
The problems listed above may be compounded if a poor quality fuse holder is used. I would strongly warn against using in line waterproof fuse holders. I said earlier that the AGU fuses may have a problem with heat buildup in their end caps. Using a fully enclosed waterproof type of fuse holder will prevent heat from escaping and will make the problem even worse. Using an open type of snap in fuse holder MAY help a poor quality fuse function properly. Using a good quality fuse in an open type snap in fuse holder will very likely work precisely as it should with little or no chance of overheating. The following is an open fuse holder. There are 2 quick connect terminals (inside yellow circles) and 1 screw terminal on each side of the fuse. The screw down connections are preferred for high current applications. The quick connect terminals will lead to an increased chance of overheating (due to higher terminal resistance)."
- http://www.bcae1.com/fuses.htm

Basically saying what I've been trying to tell you.

I still say go with the 150A, let the on-board fuses on the amp do their job and the 150A do its, protecting your car and your power wire from melting/catching on fire.
-Cody

MacLeod

Youre my bro Cody but Im going to go with PBD on this. After all, he's not an Aggie.

Brett - I really like those 4 channel cables. Having them twisted together like that not only adds a little extra protection against invading noise but also makes it a lot easier to manage during installation.

exalted512

When youve seen as many burnt fuse holders and fuses and power wires as ive seen from what i would consider a decent install, maybe youll change your mind:D
-Cody

brettw22

I put a call into Tweeters install department and they indicated that for my 4 gauge wire being connected to my 400.4, I should get a fuse somewhere between 120 and 180 amps. He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin.

I'm about to put an order in for the following:
- Streetwires PS04B : Multi Amp Kit (I want the cable and distribution block for when/if I do decide to up the number of amps)
- Streetwires FH4ANL : ANL fuse holder
- Streetwires ZN3604 : ZN3 6m 4 channel interconnect
- Streetwires ANL 150 amp fuse

With all of the above, is there anything else I should look at ordering now while I'm looking to get all this stuff ordered? (battery terminals/posts, wire terminals, etc...) If I spend another $20 shipping is free..........

EDIT: OH YA!!!!!! I got my 400.4 and my SR's sitting in my living room......looking so ready to go into my car......i NEED to get this stuff ordered ASAP for a Christmas present to myself....

Lastly, I sent an email off to an Ebay seller for the Pionieer DEH-P860MP and am waiting to hear back from him. Hopefully I can time that arriving around the same time as all the above wiring stuff.

MacLeod

brettw22 wrote:

I put a call into Tweeters install department and they indicated that for my 4 gauge wire being connected to my 400.4, I should get a fuse somewhere between 120 and 180 amps. He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin.

I'm about to put an order in for the following:
- Streetwires PS04B : Multi Amp Kit (I want the cable and distribution block for when/if I do decide to up the number of amps)
- Streetwires FH4ANL : ANL fuse holder
- Streetwires ZN3604 : ZN3 6m 4 channel interconnect
- Streetwires ANL 150 amp fuse

With all of the above, is there anything else I should look at ordering now while I'm looking to get all this stuff ordered? (battery terminals/posts, wire terminals, etc...) If I spend another $20 shipping is free..........

Looks like youve got everything covered.

Might want to order a couple extra fuses.....although I dont see why since a 150 amp fuse would blow if it were struck by lightning.

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

Might want to order a couple extra fuses.....although I dont see why since a 150 amp fuse would blow if it were struck by lightning.

...'cause it might get struck by lightning?

MacLeod

LOL!! Good point bliss!

brettw22

I'm ordering 2 of the fuses just so i don't find myself without and waiting for a delivery......what about the other stuff?

exalted512

a postive battery terminal is a good thing. If you do plan on getting another amp, you might want to get a fused distroblock in which an agu block would work fine.

"He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin. "

someone at tweeter knows what hes talking about and repeated the same thing ive been saying all along.

With the extra $20 you could get some dynamat for the doors
-Cody

brettw22

So far everything I've been buying is removeable for the next car, so i want to stick with those intentions. Why do I only need a positive terminal and not a negative?

Where's an inexpensive place to look into dynamat?

exalted512

take a look at www.secondskinaudio.com Its whats going in my truck. Also look at raammat off ebay. Both of which are extremely good products, just as good--if not better than dynamat (and d. extreme) and much cheaper.

"Why do I only need a positive terminal and not a negative?"
Because you only hook up a power wire, not a negative. If you want, get the negative, theres nothing bad about it and youll match. But a lot of the time if you use your stock battery terminal, itll wiggle its way loose.
-Cody

neomagus00

it's because you usually ground to the chassis, not back to the battery...

brettw22

Are the positive and negative terminals to replace the stock terminal connections or to go on top of them for the connection of the 4gauge wire?

EDIT: What's the difference between the B1P and the B2P streetwires terminals? I can't see any description in why there's different designs.

neomagus00

the positive (and negative if you want it) should be able to hold all your stock wiring AND your new cable, because, yes, you do replace the stock terminal - the new one goes straight onto the battery post... and streetwires's site is being a ****, so i can't check on b1p vs. b2p...

MacLeod

exalted512 wrote:

"He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin. "

So a Tweeter installer agrees with you. Need I say more?

exalted512

i was thinking the same thing when i was typing that...good thing it wasnt a CC or BB employee!! Tweeter is one of the last few places I'd actually take a car to...
Im still right:D
-Cody