Should they rebuild New Orleans where it is?

Demiurge

I guarantee you, in 5 years, NO will have been rebuilt bigger and better than ever. The population will be just as big and the levees will offer a lot more protection with back up plans in case one is breached. I guarantee you NO will not die out

I'll take you up on this. What you're saying is completely illogical. I've yet to see the logical arguments as to why this is both economical, environmentally sound, and socially reasonable.

Plain and simple, it's not.

Funny we're hearing estimates of 100 Billion dollars now. Are you effin' joking me? There's no way this city is getting re-built and we're going to pay that price. I'm not the one smoking crack and saying rebuild the damn thing at the same time with figures like that floating around.

shack

Dennis Gardner wrote:

I found the National Geographic article that told of the pending doom for New Orleans. The first page or so reads like the headlines of this week.

It sent chills up my spine when I found it.

It would be interesting to hear what the author has to say about writing such a profound prediction of future events less than one year ago....

Dennis Gardner

It was the FEMA study that claimed anything above a Cat 3 storm would be disaster. The Red Cross doesn't even do shelters in NO anymore because they knew the risks.

DarqueKnight

New Orleans Times-Picayune

Saturday, September 03, 2005

Clinton angered by Hastert comments
Saturday, 10:22 a.m.

Add former President Clinton to the list of those angered by statements made this week by House Speaker Dennis Hastert that it doesn't make sense to rebuild New Orleans.

Hastert, R-Illinois, has since backed off his comments, saying he does not want to see the city "bulldozed,'' as he had told a newspaper several days ago.

Today's Washington Post reports that Clinton was discussing New Orleans's dilemma when someone described the speaker's comments to him. Had they been in the same place when the remarks were made, Clinton said, "I'm afraid I would have assaulted him."

MacLeod

Im sure he wouldve! How else can Bill pick up hot college chicks during Mardis Gras if it aint there!

brettw22

I'm absolutely DISGUSTED at those that want to throw the race card out about this God Damned disaster. I can't believe that people are going on TV and in interviews claiming that people are not being helped because they are black. I get so **** tired of seeing how easily people throw out the race card.......

I'm also getting a bit pissed watching the news people drill every single guest from the government and accuse them of choosing to do nothing. This was a double whammy situation that has some **** to go through. I don't know who in their right mind thinks that in 24 hours the government can have everyone rescued and being fed and sleeping in warm beds.

This **** sucks, and maybe it's time that these people quit using this situation as a soapbox for whatever **** they have had stored up looking for a situation to unload them on.

[/rant]

Dennis Gardner

For the poor, the race card is all they have. Sympathy through guilt works almost every time.

Personal responsibility has never been the call of the leaders of the poor. I also wonder how many of those caught by the flood called the tsunami victims stupid and ignorant for living so close to the shore. It makes you wonder............

amulford

Brett I agree with you that we can't rescue everybody in 24 hours. But we can insert a combat ready division anywhere in the world, self sufficient for three weeks, in 36 hours. I think we could have gotten help down there quicker. Even if it was National Guard inserted to commandeer, control and distribute food and water already there, and to set up for resupply and enforce martial law.

Some of the criticism is warranted, IMHO. But it has nothing to do with the color of their skin...

brettw22

The problem with the race card arguement is that a lot of it is the reporters and politicians. Someone needs to point out to them how moronic they sound trying to bring race into something as manganamous as this.

You can insert a combat ready division in places where you actually know what the hell you're dropping them into. By the time they actually did figure out how bad things were down there (Tuesday) they did mobilize people and were showing up en masse by Thursday. That's not to say it was a perfect response.......

What needs to happen is people to be driving down those streets in boats dropping supplies of to those that are currently stranded. The helicopters are ok, but wouldn't it be easier to actually get supplies directly to people than to keep dropping it and watching these water bottles literally sink in the streets? You can bet your **** that I wouldn't be diving to the bottom of the water in those streets to find the water bottle that was dropped from 50 feet up.

I do understand the need to re-evaluate our current plan of attack for future problems, but the town WAS for the most part ok throughout the hurricane......the problem was shot to hell when the levy's broke in several places. It's been reported that one scenario that they plotted out was the levy's overflowing a bit, but not for them to completely break apart in as many places as they did. Definitely worth revisiting their future plans, but to harp on every person that's interviewed how horrible this is is unnecessary, and is doing no good.

exalted512

amulford wrote:

Brett I agree with you that we can't rescue everybody in 24 hours. But we can insert a combat ready division anywhere in the world, self sufficient for three weeks, in 36 hours. I think we could have gotten help down there quicker. Even if it was National Guard inserted to commandeer, control and distribute food and water already there, and to set up for resupply and enforce martial law.

Some of the criticism is warranted, IMHO. But it has nothing to do with the color of their skin...

honestly, what you said, and what happened have nothing in common...at all. So we can get a combat ready division anywhere in the world in 36 hours? That compares nothing to having to rescue, cloth, and feed several thousand people. Theres no comparison
-Cody

MacLeod

Besides, Tuesday afternoon the mayor and most of the city and reporters were thinking the worst was over. Hell they were even talking about being ready for the Labor Day holiday! It wasnt til Tuesday evening that they realized the levy had given way and it wasnt til Thursday they realized it had given way in 4 spots! So Tuesday night they realize its bad and by Thursday afternoon the National Guard, FEMA and millions of dollars in aid had gotten there. That aint too bad.

TroyD

One, the National Guard should have been activated BEFORE the storm. They werent'

Two, food and water supplies should have been established at shelters BEFORE the storm, they apparently weren't.

Three, there should have been a plan to distribute food and water to sustain folks for more than 12-24 hours, there wasn't.

Sure, go ahead and **** at the federal government, some of it would be justified, however, the MONUMENTAL failures here are at the state and local level.

BDT

F1nut

TroyD wrote:

Sure, go ahead and **** at the federal government, some of it would be justified, however, the MONUMENTAL failures here are at the state and local level.

BINGO!!!

amulford

How true. Sad, but true...

But the fact is the fed should have relief diasaster plan at the ready for a situation such as this. With all of the talk, rhetoric and money I find it unbelievable.

The scale is beyond local and state government. It isn't a localized disaster. The states should have had plans in place for the first 36 hours, but they should have relief after that point.

amulford

Cody, My point is if we can insert a 10,000 man plus division, complete with equipment and food, we should have had a little shorter response time for this. That's all.

DarqueKnight

One, the National Guard should have been activated BEFORE the storm.

There is normally a large contingent of Marines at the New Oleans naval base and a very large contingent of National Guard troops stationed in and around New Orleans. The vast majority of those Marine and National Guard troops were sent to Iraq. That is why the first wave of 300 National Guard troops were BROUGHT IN FROM ARKANSAS. Those 300 Arkansas National Guard troops had just returned from IRAQ. Therefore, there were no National Guard troops to activate.

I am attaching a copy of the letter that Louisiana govenor Kathleen Blanco sent to President Bush through FEMA two days before Katrina struck.

"August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:
• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.
• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.
• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.
• Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.
• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and
Rescue Missions.

Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.

The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:

• FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.


I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,



Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
Enclosure

Two, food and water supplies should have been established at shelters BEFORE the storm, they apparently weren't.

The American Red Cross will not operate hurricane shelters in New Orleans because of the dangers from flooding. The only real "shelter" a New Orleans citizen has from a hurricane is to evacuate. As you can see from Govenor Blanco's letter, plans were made to activate shelters. However, in the event of catastrophic flooding, even the most well staffed and well provisioned shelters become useless because they are either under water or inaccessible due to water.

The nominal "storm shelters" in New Orleans that are above sea level, such as the Superdome and the Convention Center, are designed as temporary shelters for 24-48 hours until a storm passes.

I agree that there should have been a better plan in place to evacuate citizens using resources from the public transportation system.

Three, there should have been a plan to distribute food and water to sustain folks for more than 12-24 hours, there wasn't.

It is generally known that if you remain in New Orleans after an evacuation order has been given, you are "on your own". It sounds cold and heartless, but for citizens who choose not to obey an evacuation order or who CAN NOT obey an evacuation order, food and water is their individual responsibility. For institutionalized individuals (e.g. hospitals, jails, etc.), their care is the institution's responsibility.

Sure, go ahead and **** at the federal government, some of it would be justified, however, the MONUMENTAL failures here are at the state and local level.

No, they arent. The MONUMENTAL failures here are due to the flooding caused by the levee breaches. The maintenance and improvement of the levees is a federal responsibility. The Army Corps of Engineers has been begging for the last five years for money to modify and improve the levees to withstand category five hurricane winds. The response from the federal government was to drastically reduce funding for levee improvement.

Although the Army Corps of Engineers has been very vocal and aggressive in seeking funding to improve the New Orleans levee system, no one with any common sense should require a detailed engineering report to know that it was just a matter of time before a storm surge breached the current (inadequate) levee system.

Look at what Katrina did with a mere glancing blow. You can imagine what would have happened if New Orleans had taken a direct hit.

George Grand

Good post DK.

George

DarqueKnight

DarqueKnight wrote:

Although the Army Corps of Engineers has been very vocal and aggressive in seeking funding to improve the New Orleans levee system, no one with any common sense should require a detailed engineering report to know that it was just a matter of time before a storm surge breached the current (inadequate) levee system.

Look at what Katrina did with a mere glancing blow. You can imagine what would have happened if New Orleans had taken a direct hit.

Now that we're (again) under water and many of us are dead, perhaps the feds will rethink their position with regard to New Orleans area levee improvements. I really do not understand why protecting New Orleans from catastrophic flooding was not a top federal priority considering the strategic, military, and commercial importance of the City of New Orleans and the Port of New Orleans.

Dennis Gardner

DarqueKnight wrote:

Look at what Katrina did with a mere glancing blow. You can imagine what would have happened if New Orleans had taken a direct hit.

New Orleans isn't a hurricane victim, it is a flood victim. It wasn't even the storm surge (wave) that took it out. It was the rising lake and poor planning.
A direct hit would have done more immediate structural damage, but nothing destroys more than a month under water. The time lost in the cleanup is staggering.

I sure don't see the leadership being reported from the mayor or governor that we saw with Giuliani and Pataki in NY. They seem to be as helpless and surprised as those in the water.

TroyD

The American Red Cross will not operate hurricane shelters in New Orleans because of the dangers from flooding. The only real "shelter" a New Orleans citizen has from a hurricane is to evacuate. As you can see from Govenor Blanco's letter, plans were made to activate shelters. However, in the event of catastrophic flooding, even the most well staffed and well provisioned shelters become useless because they are either under water or inaccessible due to water.

Why is it the ARC's job to operate the shelter. To think that everyone or even a majority will evacuate is simply pissing in the wind. People will stay and it's the local gov't's job to provide for that eventuality. When they mandatory evacuate Charleston, the shelters are established (and Charleston also has flooding issues) and are prepared to sustain the folks there until they can either be evacuated or other provisions are made. This simply didn't happen and the local gov't is responsible.

It is generally known that if you remain in New Orleans after an evacuation order has been given, you are "on your own

I don't have a problem with that, however, the state and local gov't's seem to be whining the most about what the feds have or haven't done.

Although the Army Corps of Engineers has been very vocal and aggressive in seeking funding to improve the New Orleans levee system, no one with any common sense should require a detailed engineering report to know that it was just a matter of time before a storm surge breached the current (inadequate) levee system.

I agree, and again, that is another state and local issue.

As far as the National Guard, saying that they are all in Iraq is ****. While there are SOME in Iraq, the majority are still at home. I think the number not deployed is somewhere around 75 percent. The were NOT activated before the storm and they should have been.

BDT

HBombToo

I am at an overall loss for words with what has happened to our citizens. That said, its obvious that we as a Nation must pull together and do whatever it takes to help all people impacted by this disaster.

I will not position myself in any comments that are negative against any local, state or federal agencies during the heat of battle. I believe that the entire Nation is responsible for supporting all agencies trying to assist during this horrible disaster considering that there is NO infrastructure at this time to rely on.

With regard to the rebuilding of the entire area is anther topic that I am not able to answer with any intelligence so I will refrain. I will end my position with a single question: Should we continue to dump huge amounts of capital into fighting mother nature? How much cash would it have taken to prevent a disaster even if it were a direct hit?

At the end of the day I believe we will rebuild only to watch another strike by mother nature and have Americans divided into opposing economic and political camps.

Henry

George Grand

Me love you big time Mr. Lucidity. Big fan. BIG fan.

George

DarqueKnight

Why is it the ARC's job to operate the shelter.

It's not. The point I was trying to make is that it is too dangerous for anyone, even professional aid agencies like ARC, to operate shelters in NO under flood conditions.

When they mandatory evacuate Charleston, the shelters are established (and Charleston also has flooding issues) and are prepared to sustain the folks there until they can either be evacuated or other provisions are made.

Charleston's flooding issues are not comparable to those of New Orleans. Much of New Orleans is 6 to 12 feet below sea level. As far as I could determine, Charlston has an average elevation of 0 feet above sea level.

As far as the National Guard, saying that they are all in Iraq is ****. While there are SOME in Iraq, the majority are still at home. I think the number not deployed is somewhere around 75 percent. The were NOT activated before the storm and they should have been.
BDT

That may be true of the United States in general, but it is not true of Guard units stationed in south Lousiana. There are approximately 8500 National Guardsmen in Louisiana. 5000 of those are in Iraq. Most of south Louisiana's National Guard was deployed to IRAQ. What this means is that those Louisiana National Guardsmen who were best trained and best equipped to deal with this type of emergency were out of the country. The remaining Louisiana National Guardsmen were activated on Aug. 26 and the entire, statewide contingent of 3500 Guardment were activated on the morning of August 29. Naturally, all Guardsmen from throughout Louisiana could not be sent to New Orleans. Those that could be spared from other areas in the state were sent to areas along the Louisiana coast. Some were sent to assist the overwhelmed New Orleans Police Department.

Here is an article from a US Department of Defense website that mentions the activation of all remaining Louisiana National Guard personnel at 7am on August 29, 2005.

National Guard Responds to Hurricane Katrina

The depletion of National Guard units to provide personnel and material for IRAQ has been a grave concern of Gulf Coast state govenors. Here are some links:

Louisiana National Guard Troops Watch Katrina From Iraq

U.S. military won't send troops in Iraq home to deal w/hurricane

DarqueKnight

From the Associated Press:

Congress Likely to Probe Guard Response

HBombToo

George Grand wrote:

Me love you big time Mr. Lucidity. Big fan. BIG fan.

George

Back atcha bro!

Henry

TroyD

The point I was trying to make is that it is too dangerous for anyone, even professional aid agencies like ARC, to operate shelters in NO under flood conditions.

See, I disagree. If you know that if you are predisposed to a certain issue, you need to plan for it. If the superdome or whereever was a storm shelter it should have been prepared and it clearly wasn't. This, IMO, is a planning failure.

Charleston's flooding issues are not comparable to those of New Orleans.

I'm not saying that the are equivalent to NO, flood issues DO exist and we have contingency plans for them.

As far as the Nat'l Guard goes, the numbers that I heard reported was 3,500 were deployed to Iraq of approx 11,000 in the LA National Guard, that still leaves a sizeable chunk at home. Activating them after the storm was unacceptable, they should have been activated PRIOR to the storm.

Look, I'm not looking to crucify anyone but it would seem that the local and state officials are looking to blame the federal gov't when a good deal of what didn't happen in terms of relief could have been, in some ways, mitigated.

As far as the levees go, I'm not sure, but I don't think that's Federal property. I would think that is a state of Louisiana issue.

BDT

MacLeod

I know this sounds heartless but Im over this whole thing now.

The wall to wall coverage on every network is bad enough but then you had the looting and shooting at rescue helicopters and mugging of people coming in on boats to rescue people.

Then you get the race card thrown around all over the place with NO citizens taking time out of shooting at rescue workers to come to the mike and denounce the rest of the country claiming we havent responded because theyre black. All this culminating with some idiot rapper on a telethon accusing Bush of ordering National Guard troops to fire on black people because Bush doesnt care about blacks and blah blah blah (nevermind the fact that most of the rescue volunteers are white and most of the people I see donating at these grocery stores are white and that Bush has appointed a black person to the 4th most powerful office in the world TWICE).

Now we've got the blame game. The media is about to wet their collective pants over finding somebody to blame for the feds not getting down there fast enough. Tuesday afternoon that moron of a mayor is bragging about cleaning up in time for the Labor Day holiday while having no idea the levees had given way until that evening and by Thrusday afternoon the National Guard, FEMA and millions of dollars in supplies are rolling into town. Not too bad if you ask me. Plus, its hard to rescue people WHEN THEYRE SHOOTING AT YOU!!!!

I predict the next thing to come down the line, and the point where I will probably go totally apathetic towards politics, will be those worthless people in Congress will start holding hearings trying to "get to the bottom of this dereliction and incompetence" and go on a witch hunt.

Im over this whole thing.

Frank Z

Yep, same here. Couldn't have said it better myself.

brettw22

Somewhat agree, but it's pretty easy for us to say things got there quick when we're not the one's wading through toxic water, smelling death day and night, stuck with THOUSANDS of people ALWAYS around you, NOWHERE to freely go, and are trapped until someone actually shows up to take you away.

The blame game needs to be played because this should NEVER happen again, and if going on a witchhunt will ensure that it doesn't, I fully support it. Our country has this image that we are live these great lives to the rest of the world, but we can't seemingly (EFFICIENTLY) help ourselves........for a WEEK.

This tragedy is one that everyone shares some responsibility in, but to generalize the entire refugee (a term that saddens me to use in referring to our own citizens) populus as thugs that are playing the race card is wrong.

The people stuck in homes or shelters or office buildings in parts of NO that have no end in sight do not have the luxury of seeing the news coverage. They don't know the faces of those that are donating money and goods to help them. THey don't even really know that people ARE donating goods or that there are missions being run to find them and give them food/water unless a helicopter just so happens to spot them. They know that they're sitting in a house in an abandoned city for 1440 minutes a day, and often looking up and down the street at nothing coming, and nothing going.

Go ahead and be irritated at the news for creating their own stories, but try to put yourself in ANY of those citizens places and think how chipper you'd be if you had nearly a week of the hell that they're living through.

Dennis Gardner

The race card wasn't played by the victims, as much as it was by the media that places themselves above the victims. I actually heard a reporter tell us she had to hide her water and food supply so noone would see her eating and drinking. Why didn't the news crews pack their trucks and vans full of supplies and show themselves distributing? They were allowed free reign to come and go. Some of them have reported from a different town each day. They weren't all on video phones, most of them had satellite trucks behind the camera.

Along with the media, the black leadership didn't waste any time on gaining ground in their fight. I don't expect any different from them, since that is all they have.

We as a nation, are so politically divided by the constant media presence in our lives that even a tragedy of this proportion has half the nation looking for something to go wrong with those in charge, and the other half looking to protect their political slant by blaming those that stayed behind. Even I get caught up in it on occasion.

If you recall, media coverage during the first week of the tsunami didn't even have much live ground footage. It was always the same amatuer video cam footage with commentary with the occasional chopper shot.

Our 24/7 instant news makes it look like you can simply jump into any situation at the drop of a hat and go to work. The state of LA. and city of NO simply conditioned themselves by being the "Big Easy" for so long that they forgot how serious natural disaster can be, and planned like wise. The Superdome has always been considered the fallout shelter, but no supplies exist there? Even our youngest children pack food to bed with them and always have to take a snack on the road incase they get hungry. Why couldn't those in charge think like this?