Should they rebuild New Orleans where it is?

Polk65

a local newspaper on 2005-0831 wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/31/MNGP3EFPK01.DTL&type=printable

When the floodwaters recede, the power is restored and the streets cleaned of debris, hurricane-ravaged New Orleans will have to brace for the next wave of destruction -- the wrecking ball.

Much of the historic city, flanked by Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River, was under water Tuesday because of a pair of levee breaks caused by Hurricane Katrina. Experts predicted that few of the homes and buildings that have been inundated would be salvageable.

"They probably will have to be stripped to their framing, treated for mold and then rebuilt," said Martin King, technical adviser to the Association of Specialists in Cleaning and Restoration, located in Maryland.

If the structures are not professionally dried out within the next 48 hours, the chances of saving them are slim, said King, a certified restorer who lives in Virginia.

If this is all true, why not elevate the structures above sea level since they will be down to the bare frames?

As for my previous comment about "human scum", this is the first time I have ever used this term in my life and hopefully the last. Right now my blood is boiling from seeing the pillaging taking place and the memory of my car attacked when I visited.

I'm going to donate some of my blood today even though it's only o+ it will help someone.

Demiurge

Too many of you guys are on the 'Disaster Strikes America' build everything '10 Times Bigger' mentality. That's great and all, but it's also STUPID. This isn't 9/11, and when that happened I wanted us to build those towers twice as tall if possible. Sticking it in the face of adversity is a great thing and showing America's resolve.

This is quite the different circumstance. You're dealing with a known variable. That you live in a bowl that fills with water. Where are they going to pump all this water to? The same lake that's flooding them!? Funny stuff. Never going to happen? How is it never going to happen? I do suspect that in the end they'll go ahead and try to rebuild there, but you can be damn sure I'm not going to lose much sleep over it when it happens again. There comes a point where you need to be held accountable for your own stupidity.

See any of the people who didn't leave on the news? "God was I stupid."

Yeah, you were, glad people can own up to it. If you know what you know now by living with the reality of what happend....Why the hell would you stay there for part 2?

All the toxic waste is a HUGE deal. We happen to have some prime real estate off the river here in Milwaukee where it enters into Lake Michigan. It's riddled with toxic waste in the soil and NOBODY will undertake the cost of cleaning it up, despite the fact it's some of the most attractive real estate in the enitre city. With all the regulations, etc, it's not like building a cabin with your lincoln logs.

The people saying this aren't just people on the Polk forums. It's being talked about on the news and by the politicians.

If people choose to live there, it's their problem. Screw them if it happens again. Hard to feel sorry twice when the consequences are a result of THEIR actions and nobody elses.

nadams

For all of you trying to compare this to any other place in America, you can't! Florida isn't a giant bowl that doesn't drain out after a hurricane. I'll say it again, if you have to have a intricate pump system to keep the city dry during normal weather occurrences, chances are nature is telling you that you need to live somewhere else!

A better example than Florida or any of these other weather occurrences, would be a town (or what used to be a town) in Pennsylvania, called Centralia. For those of you that don't know, in the late 60's, Centralia was a coal mining town. There were around 800 homes and businesses within the Centralia borough. Then, a mine fire started. Political red tape became involved (not the point of this story), and the fire got out of control instead of getting put out. Several attempts were made to put it out, but it was always too little too late. This is a perfect example of a place that's no longer a good place to live... mine subsidences were opening up as a result of long-forgotten mine shafts caving in due to the sulfuric air, people were passing out, bad things were happening.

So what fate did the poor residents of Centralia face? Government buyout. Whether they wanted to or not, the Government came in and paid "fair market value" for any homes or properties owned in the borough of Centralia (some people will still tell you that it wasn't enough, but that's not for me to say because I was't alive then). At the same time, some enterprising individual set up "New Centralia" a few miles away, to try to capture some of the dispersing residents and set up a new community. For whatever reason, it didn't catch on, but regardless, the population of Centralia moved on.

Now, believe it or not, with this fire and the dangers associated with it, a few people TO THIS DAY, refuse to move out of Centralia. They say that the fire poses no risk to their houses where they sit, so they're going to keep living there. (I think at last count, it was 5 houses) Keep in mind, the rest of Centralia is GONE. They tore all the houses and businesses down, and left empty lots. The people remaining in town did not get any of the government buyout money, but they don't actually own their houses anymore. The government is just being nice by letting them stay there. But they sure don't get any pity when another subsidence opens, or somebody gets faint due to the sulphuric gas... They're essentially on their own.

so anyway, that's one example where a government buyout worked. Yes, I realise that new orleans is a much larger CITY than Centralia... but the idea is still the same. Yes, these are peoples homes, and you're going to get met with resistance, possibly a lot... but the city is trashed... like everyone's said, essentially toxic waste floating around town, dead bodies, the whole lot. It's going to take a LONG time, and BILLIONS of dollars to rebuild this city again, and for what? Because we're too stubborn to leave a location where it doesn't make sense to live?

Sorry, that's it for me...

Ricardo

They will rebuild where it is, but NO won't ever be the same. Do you think everyone will go back? Hell no; tons of people will move out, and who will move in?

NO will probably be smaller, with less businesses/industry, and a lot more focus on tourism......

My opinion.

TroyD

Ok, you say it isn't the issue but it is a HUGE issue....you displace a few million people. WHERE you put them is a BIG issue. We can't just create real estate out of thin air. This huge city and surrounding areas is going to have to go SOMEWHERE.

The point about moving every coastal city is a valid one. Much of Charleston is under sea level. A day of rain is enough to flood downtown. Think we should just raze it and move someplace else? We had a pretty nasty hurricane in 1989 that devestated much of the city....and it was all rebuilt, better than before.

Now, I grant you, rebuilding in a different spot is an ideal situation, however, there are some practical reasons why it will not happen.

BDT

TroyD

HTrookie wrote:

They will rebuild where it is, but NO won't ever be the same. Do you think everyone will go back? Hell no; tons of people will move out, and who will move in?

NO will probably be smaller, with less businesses/industry, and a lot more focus on tourism......

My opinion.

Nobody will go back to New Orleans? How do you figure? Again, just where are these folks going to go???

Look at Charleston and the area in South Florida that was hit by Andrew in 1992, both areas came back bigger and better than ever.

BDT

Ricardo

TroyD wrote:

Nobody will go back to New Orleans? How do you figure? Again, just where are these folks going to go???

Look at Charleston and the area in South Florida that was hit by Andrew in 1992, both areas came back bigger and better than ever.

BDT

Well, a huge amount of the people that left, don't have a place/job to go back to anymore (not to mention no schools, church, etc); I think many people are/will try to get started somewhere else; people move a lot in this country because of jobs or other reasons, but mainly jobs; if you add to this the fact that you don't have a place to live, I know I would be looking to go somewhere else and provide the minimum basic requirements to my family. This could very well be a temporary thing, but I think many people will not go back.

Edit: BTW, I did not say "Nobody will go back"; I said that not everybody will go back...

TroyD

Again, look at history....Hugo and Andrew. Neither area saw a mass exodus. In fact, Charleston has almost doubled in size.

BDT

Ricardo

yes, but in my opinion nothing we have seen recently compares to this; at the end, I just hope that all the people affected get back on track as soon as possible, be it in NO or elsewhere.

TroyD

Were you in either Charleston or Homestead? I wasn't in Charleston but my wife was and I went to Homestead a couple days after Andrew hit and can tell you that the devestation was pretty extensive.

I got to Charleston in 1992 and they were still rebuilding, almost three years later. Yes, it's catastrophic but it will be rebuilt, people will return. That's the facts and using history as a guage, your predictions just won't come true.

BDT

cfrizz

Polk65 wrote:

I'm going to donate some of my blood today even though it's only o+ it will help someone.

Polk65, You are considered a Universal Donor! Anyone can be given you blood!

Ricardo

TroyD wrote:

Were you in either Charleston or Homestead? I wasn't in Charleston but my wife was and I went to Homestead a couple days after Andrew hit and can tell you that the devestation was pretty extensive.

I got to Charleston in 1992 and they were still rebuilding, almost three years later. Yes, it's catastrophic but it will be rebuilt, people will return. That's the facts and using history as a guage, your predictions just won't come true.

BDT

TroyD

If you say so... I'm just expressing my opinion, not predicting anything.

TroyD

I'm not trying to be an ****, but, jeeze, this is the same **** we heard after Hugo and Andrew......I understand the sentiment but things will get cleaned up and rebuilt. We are talking about a city a couple hundred years old, not the lost city of Atlantis.

BDT

Ricardo

TroyD wrote:

I'm not trying to be an ****....,

BDT

I thought you were......


Sorry; couldn' resist this one...


You might be totally right here, but after the latest things going on down there (snipers shooting at hospitals, rescue paralized for security reasons, etc), before rebuilding they should drop a huge bomb and kill all those inhumans....then start from scratch....
Never thought I would see this kind of things in this country/this century....

VR3

Well... to quote my history teacher...

"New Orleans was established as a trading post, no one ever expected anyone to live there."

reeltrouble1

My guestimate is that since you have land next to water the big money developers will move in after the area is stabilized. Put up a bunch of Condo's/Townhomes with the 400/500 to 1 million pricetag and sell em. N.O. as it was known will change but like Charleston it will be bigger than ever. After all it is the Big Easy.

RT1

landry_p2000

They shouldn't relocate the city of N.O., but maybe reconstruct the levee stronger this time and pray that it holds. Most of the people in New Orleans have been there all of their life, and probably wouldn't move anyway. Rebuilding is a slow process, but not impossible.

ND13

I just want the French Quarter back up and running in time for Mardi Gras, damnit!!!

Show your ****, Show your ****!!!!!

We need a little bit of comic relief, this has been a serious day here at CP. No harm was intended by my above statement, just a little humor and wishful thinking.

Emlyn

It's deja vu all over again. In 1965, Hurricane Betsy caused the lake to overflow, flooding 80 percent of New Orleans. The city was pumped out and rebuilt and the Army Corps of Engineers built a new levee system along the lake capable of withstanding up to a category 3 hurricane's storm surge. A 5 to 10 foot higher levee system would have protected the city from a category 5 hurricane's storm surge, and there were also ideas to build a secondary levee to protect just the central business area of the city. The levee wasn't built high enough because of cost concerns. I guess it will be built the right way over the next few years. It's certainly possible, just expensive, but necessary because the city gets touched by a hurricane at least once very ten years.

amulford

That is EXACTLY what will happen. The levee system will be re-evaluated and redesigned accordingly. It could be funded by the speculating developers who are sure to come.

I would venture to guess that the maintenance of it will also be addressed. Without proper maintenance, you could build anything you want, but it will fail if it's not kept up.

The city was ok with the actual storm. The problems came the day after, when a weakened section of the levee gave way.

Reinforced concrete can handle the force of water. But it will only last for so long. Useful life for that kind of application would be something around 20 -25 years. The you need to start to replace it.

Lessons learned...

MacLeod

Eff levys! Build a freaking dam!!! If I were king of New Orleans, I would build the Hoover dam around there.

My Gawd man, we're talking about the freaking ocean! The most powerful thing on earth! Youre going to hold it back with a pile of mud and grass? Give me big steel beams and tons of concrete 50 feet high!

Demiurge

Well, the board ate my last post so now that I'm home I'll re-do it.

I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to be an ****, but this is a good debate to have because I think in a month or less it's one the whole country will be having.

New Orleans should not be re-built upon. I've yet to hear a logical reason as to why we should.

As it stands right now it is nearly impossible to restore order in this city. Nothing short of shooting all of the looters, which won't happen, can be done to stop the looting at this point. Let's face it, what's left in the city, in general, is the scum of New Orleans. Anyone with a brain in their skull that isn't hurt or truly trapped isn't in that city anymore or they're on their way out in one way or another.

Once that hurdle is jumped what's next? Getting rid of all of the water? As I've asked before, how? The pumping system in the city as it was before this hellacious storm was pumping the water into lake Pontchartrain, where will it be pumped now? The only place water has to go is either to be evaporated, or down. The down, is where it's currently sitting. The down, is New Orleans.

Being America we'll get all that damn water out, but it will obviously not be a simple task and I don't think anyone here is saying that anything will be simple. I personally don't think simplicity is the crux of this argument, I think practicallity is.

Despite that you have to deal with the fact what you have lying before you is nothing short of a toxic cesspool.

The true implications of this don't seem to be getting discussed on this thread. What percentage of homes, businesses, government buildings do you think are salvageable through all of this? I really believe that anything that's underwater isn't even remotely going to stand a chance of being salvaged. It's got less to do with water damage than it has to do with the following facts:

#1 - Toxic waste is all over the floors, soaked up in the very structure of these buildings. Right there is grounds for condemnation of these buildings. The judicial implications of this alone are enough to tear down every building in this entire municipality.

#2 - The foundations of the majority of these buildings and homes are build on wetlands as is. Compound that problem with the fact that same ground is now saturated with this water.

I don't see how one of these buildings or homes will ever be habitable ever again.

Parts of this city will be habitable, but the vast majority will not be. This is a problem.

Even if we get to the point where we build new homes, etc, who is going to live there? In this span of time between when this disaster occurs and when people can actually come back to this area how many have to eat and find jobs? Pretty much the bulk of them short of the retirees. As questioned above, who is going to come back?

If this gets rebuilt at all the city will never be as big as it was. Never.

This city was dirty and old as it was. The infrastrucute of this city is old. The sewer system is over 200 years old. What happens with that? Can you imagine the cracking and stress put on the infrastructure of an already deteriorating infrastructure? It's something beyond what most of us can even imagine at this point.

The average depth of this city is 6 feet and at it's worse is about 27. How much deeper under will this city be with all that has happened considering all the shifting of it before it?

This is not like rebuilding San Franscisco after the earthquake. I'm sorry to say, but it is dumb to rebuild this city.

At some point reality has to set in and this won't be so much a policy decision so much as it will be a feasibility decison.

It's not feasible to rebuild in this city.

Again, all I've seen on this thread is a lot of balls to the walls 'We can do it' talk, but I've yet to hear anything that is logical.

As I've said before...they'll get this city re-built if this is the route they choose to go. No doubt about it. Doesn't change how illogical it is, nor does it change that this could easily happen again. New Orleans has been flirting with disaster forever.

nadams

MacLeod wrote:

Eff levys! Build a freaking dam!!! If I were king of New Orleans, I would build the Hoover dam around there.

My Gawd man, we're talking about the freaking ocean! The most powerful thing on earth! Youre going to hold it back with a pile of mud and grass? Give me big steel beams and tons of concrete 50 feet high!

Um... weren't the levees concrete to begin with?

I thought I remembered seeing a concrete wall in the video footage...

Demiurge

nadams wrote:

Um... weren't the levees concrete to begin with?

I thought I remembered seeing a concrete wall in the video footage...

That's just the concrete barriers on the top. They don't go down into the ground. It's actually just mounds of clay.

TroyD

New Orleans should not be re-built upon. I've yet to hear a logical reason as to why we should.

OK, you still haven't addressed the issue. Where do we put these people and how do we (A) compensate them for the real estate we condemn and (b) who do we take real estate from to give to these folks??

This isn't just an academic exercise, this is a costly propostition. You are talking about basically taking a large city away from someone and giving it to someone else. This is bound to piss SOMEONE off. Ask me how I'd feel if the gov't said they were going to build another house and give to someone that I don't know on my lot. Mulitply that a few hundred thousand times.

As it stands right now it is nearly impossible to restore order in this city. Nothing short of shooting all of the looters, which won't happen, can be done to stop the looting at this point. Let's face it, what's left in the city, in general, is the scum of New Orlean

Watts in '65, Chicago in '68, LA in 1992.....rioting, looting etc. Managed to quell those riots without mowing people down by the thousand.

Once that hurdle is jumped what's next? Getting rid of all of the water? As I've asked before, how?

The same way the did it after Betsy in '65...only rebuild the levees to withstand a Cat 5 storm. Charleston has the same problem, we sit below sea level.

#1 - Toxic waste is all over the floors, soaked up in the very structure of these buildings. Right there is grounds for condemnation of these buildings. The judicial implications of this alone are enough to tear down every building in this entire municipality.

Not EVERY building is underwater. Steel buildings, I would imagine are easier as steel doesn't absorb **** I think. Again, we've had the same issue in Charleston and they have managed. Smaller scale but the priniciple is still the same.

If this gets rebuilt at all the city will never be as big as it was. Never.

Care to wager on that??

Again, all I've seen on this thread is a lot of balls to the walls 'We can do it' talk, but I've yet to hear anything that is logical.

Not true at all. You haven't given any type of substantiated evidence to support your case. While I'm no engineer, historically speaking...all signs point to NO being rebuilt bigger and better than ever. It's happened in every case of a natural disaster that I can think of.

BDT

Demiurge

OK, you still haven't addressed the issue. Where do we put these people and how do we (A) compensate them for the real estate we condemn and (b) who do we take real estate from to give to these folks??

Sure have.

A - Compensation for flood damage is almost null because nobody buys flood insurance. That is a nightmare, but then again I never said it was easy.

B - You don't take it from anyone to give to these folks.

This is why we have insurance. Some people will, invariably be S.O.L.

Not to mention the cost of rebuilding would more than likely be more than outrightly giving people money to put a nice down payment on a home elsewhere.

Furthermore....it wouldn't at all be hard for the rest of this country to absorb the city of New Orleans.

This isn't just an academic exercise, this is a costly propostition. You are talking about basically taking a large city away from someone and giving it to someone else. This is bound to piss SOMEONE off. Ask me how I'd feel if the gov't said they were going to build another house and give to someone that I don't know on my lot. Mulitply that a few hundred thousand times.

Giving to city to someone else? Who? The might mississippi? Yep. That's 'who' it belongs to anyhow.

Sure it's bound to piss people off. If we had control over everything that pissed us off we wouldn't be pissed ever.

Watts in '65, Chicago in '68, LA in 1992.....rioting, looting etc. Managed to quell those riots without mowing people down by the thousand.

As stated in my post all you have left in New Orleans is a city of Scum, by majority. Comparing this to Chicago and L.A. is laughable. #1 Chicago and L.A. wasn't filled with ONLY the scum of the earth at the time and #2 Chicago and L.A. weren't Kevin Costner's Water World where police can't patrol in their cars and the city is completely abandoned other than the scum of the earth.

As I said, good luck curbing the issue anytime soon without killing all these ****. They're not leaving so long as there's **** to loot.

The same way the did it after Betsy in '65...only rebuild the levees to withstand a Cat 5 storm. Charleston has the same problem, we sit below sea level.

Have you read anything on Betsy? That was nothing approaching what this was. Furthermore you're not addressing the toxic waste issue. The fact that this 'city' if you want to call it that, is no longer a city by it's very nature. It's a swamp that had a city build on top of it. All the levies in the world doesn't change this fact.

Of course your LOGIC is still escaping me on why you'd re-build here. The comparison to Charleson isn't one that holds water (no pun intended).

Not EVERY building is underwater. Steel buildings, I would imagine are easier as steel doesn't absorb **** I think. Again, we've had the same issue in Charleston and they have managed. Smaller scale but the priniciple is still the same.

As noted in my post I didn't say EVERY building is underwater, did I? Let's not parse what was said with what wasn't.

I said the MAJORITY.

And you've not had the same issue in Chaleston by any stretch of the imagination.

Care to wager on that??

ABSOLUTELY!

Not true at all. You haven't given any type of substantiated evidence to support your case. While I'm no engineer, historically speaking...all signs point to NO being rebuilt bigger and better than ever. It's happened in every case of a natural disaster that I can think of.

Sure it's true. There isn't any logical reasoning to build a city on a swap that is at it's worst point, 27 feet below sea level surrounded by water on 3 sides. I'm sorry, but please, argue the POINT logically. Safe to say I'll be waiting for a while for an answer anything short of just plain human arrogance, and hell, I can accept that. And I might as well because I'll wager you're right they'll try to rebuild, but then again you nor I have any idea how extensive the damage really is. Way too early for that, but I can damn well tell you right now that you've got to be one dumb son of a **** if you choose to live there after this vulgar display of power.

MacLeod

Another thing I was thinking of today. If they rebuild NO, what insurance company will insure those houses and most importantly, the businesses? I bet no insurance company would touch it with a 10 foot pole!

exalted512

if i lived in new orleans and my home got flooded, id move back. you cant just close off a city like that, thats ludacris. logically, youre right, the town is a giant **** bowl right now, but like someone said, it wouldve been ok if the levees were built to supress the effects of a cat 5 hurricane. Theyll rebuild the levees better, theyll rebuild the town better. The town will be just as big as it was, i guaran-fuggin-tee it.
-Cody

Dennis Gardner

They will study the levees that the whole country of the Netherlands uses to protect itself after the floods of 1967. They rebuilt a triple system that will protect for years.

brettw22

While I agree that the looting and rapings are deplorable, to categorize all that are remaining there as 'scum of the earth' is way overboard. Please show some compassion to people (they ARE human) who have had their very existence virtually wiped to a worse than third world country. True, there are supplies and food on the way, but many people are without, and it truly saddens me to see that they have to go through any of what they're going through at all.

Should they have left, sure, but as someone else said, not everyone had a way out.

Regardless, they're going through **** that most of us wouldn't wish on our worst enemy, and until you're willing to go and plop yourself in the middle of that hell, show a little compassion.

Also, the billions of dollars in tourism revenue that NO creates is reason enough for them to do whatever it takes to bring that back. Try getting ANY state to just give that away and you'll see a brawl goin on.