RT800i's sound muddy!

morley

Hi folks,

I'm new to the form and new to Polk audio. I recently picked up 2 RT800i's, a CS400i and 2 RT25i's. I also have a D-BOX sub -- 100watts rms, 12" driver. I'm running this of off a Sony STR-DE575 receiver and the speakers sound muddy.

My room is about 12' X 14', so it's rather small. I tried some different settings and speaker locations but I find the sound disappointing. Before I got the Polks, I was using 2 Athena bookshelf speakers that cost 1/5 the price of the Polks, but sounded better! The sound was much clearer, more crisp, but not to the point of fatiguing. I was running them of off the same receiver so I can't blame Sony, or can I? I'm currently regretting no going with an Athena setup.

I've had the Polks running almost constantly for two weeks to break them in but I still find the sound disappointing. I've bi-wired the fronts with 16 and 14 gauge wire but find no improvement. My sub is running of off the LFE and does provide good bass but with or without the sub, my speakers are cloudy! I've tries large and small speaker settings but no luck.

I REALLY want to like the Polks but I'm thinking that their sound is not my preference. I can't return them (Dealer is 1000 miles away -- I'm in Canada's north!) so I have to live with them.

Any way to get cleaner sound? Any suggestions you folks have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Morley

gidrah

that my 10Bs were muddy(er than some). That was with a Sony DPL rcvr. Now it's like the mids are dancing on feathers. Maybe Polks just don't like Sony. Other speakers sound better too. Just not to the same degree.

morley

Thanks Mark,

How about everybody else? Is the Sony an issue here, with Polk speakers? If so, what do you suggest for around $600 - $700 street price for a receiver to go with my setup?

Morley

OrangeToupee

Tricky subject: Certain amps coupled with certain speakers simply cannot be run flat; it doesn't seem to matter how well made each component may be designed, they are just incompatible.

My friend has an old Sony amp that sounds pretty damn good with a very old pair of ESS Daytona's ... I mean, they rock like crap! I brought my 800i's over out of curiosity, and they sounded like **** in comparison. I was devastated, so, in search of some benevolent speaker spirit, we left the bass flat and cranked the treble all the way up, and well, suddenly we had the same album playing again. Speakers are like vocal chords, right, at least in some way? If you're used to the way someone broadcasts the news, and the very next day you hear some new kid on the block who just replaced that familiar voice as a result of some sordid sexual scandal, regardless, it just doesn't sound right, no?

Also, the RTi line seems to require a good amount of juice to power them successfully, they're not nearly as sensitive as some others out there. I believe that once you have them properly mated and configured, that you'll begin to really dig them, I know I have.

Please pardon any grammatical or syntax related errors, but I'm completely smashed, LOL!

joe logston

the polk 800 take more power to run than the 2 athena bookselfs the drivers are bigger and take power to drive them, the sony is runing out of gas and if you add more speakers to the system the more mudy its going to get .dose the sony have a main pre out you can run a separate amp that would help a lot.

mantis

If I were you,I would look into the Denon line,Maybe the avr2802.denon mates verywell with Polk.The warm sound of the denon really makes the Polk's complete.I have personally tried many different thing's to Power my polk's.B&K sounds the best and runner up was Denon.Yamaha,Pioneer Elite fell off.
Dan

lax01

My Yamaha RX-V800 (100w * 5) has plenty of power to handle my RT1000i's. I have really cranked it up, to about -25dB on the Yamaha volume control (about 12dB over reference levels) for movies and music. I don't find my midrange at all muddy, but opposite of that. I find them clear as a bell. I have heard that the Sony receivers create dirty power and are not good for driving large speakers. I would seriously think about buy a new receiver. Denon is always good, Yamaha good too. Anything not sold in Circuit City or Best Buy.

Good Luck!

ntculenuff

i would suggest playing with your tone controls, like orange said you may have to turn the trble up a bit or even tone the bass down, my friend had the rt16 mated with an adcom amp and pre amp, he had to turn the treble all the way up just to get some decent highs, but when we hooked them to my onkyo (which at the time was about 40 watts less a channel) tone controls flat, they rocked. some amps are different.
the 800s are good speaks and will surprise you with good power.
i have mine mated with the onkyo 777 105wpc min and i am still surprising my self. dont give up on them morley

Aaron

I really don't think your receiver should have any trouble driving the speakers. About the only thing I can think of is to play around with room placement. The RT800's seem to be rather sensitive in that regard. Try moving the speakers further from the back wall, and make sure your seating position isn't right up against a wall either.

Aaron

trubluluc

Welcome Morley-

Remember when you tried that first amber ale?
After coming from a budweiser background.
Initial response...whoa! bitter, etc. etc.
Of course I couldn't touch bud now.
What you're hearing is a fuller bass spectrum,
compared to the much more limited Athena's.
Your receiver should be fine.
Give yourself some time to adjust to the speakers.
The 800's have a clean sound, provided they are working properly, (make sure your tweeters are firing).
I'm running 4 of them now, in a word...epic.

Q-tips work wonders,

-luc

goingganzo

when i first moved my home theater up stairs to re model the basenent i had a hard time hearing the dialog it was my speaker placement and i dodent ajust the speaker levels i changed them a bit and wow it was like nite and day i also have the 800i and i just love them but my 800 had a blown driver when i first got them run a test patern that runs throgh the sprectrum and listen to each speaker a twweeter might have gone bad in dilivery i had a twweter that was bad in a payer of fx 500i i have if it is a driver contact polk they will help you

danger boy

Morley,
When I first got my RT800's i too found the highs lacking.. but the bass was good. I noticed on my Marantz receiver that I had to really crank the treble up to clean up the highs. The treble is nearly turned up to full. it did make a difference and now I am happy with the clean and clear sound. My KLH speakers were too brite... but the Polks sound just right. but they do take some "tweaking" and correct speaker placement to make them come alive. I just moved my 800's farther apart from where i had them for the past 4 months. That helped improve the sound.. give that a try too Morley.

I also agree that some receivers may now give you clean sound. I am not that familiar with the Sony line of receivers. but I have heard their ES line is very good. If you are thinking of updating your receiver. Onkyo, Denon and Marantz are my faves. (not in any particular order)

ntculenuff

Originally posted by trubluluc
Q-tips work wonders,

-luc

thats funnE

fireshoes

I would say that the receiver is the culprit. The 575 is pretty low end as far as surround receivers go, and I've always hated the imaging of Sony's. I agree with the person who suggested a Denon 2802. The 800's would sound great with one!

HUNTER

Check your bi-wire straps making sure that when you clamped your wire down in the binding post that it didn't leave the strap loose. I ran into this problem a couple of times when reconnecting.

morley

Great advice, all. Thanks. This forum is excellent!

The Athenas are the same sensitivity (90db) and have 6.5” mid and 1” tweeter. They do not have the low frequency response of the 800i’s. The Sony amp has 2 X 100W at 0.7 THD, -3dbs.

I just tried cranking the treble and lowering the bass. It does sound better. The treble has two settings, one for +/- dbs and one for kHz (1.0 to 10.0 setting). Do any of you know what the second setting does? It’s not clearly stated in the manual. I set treble at +6bd and 10 kHz, but I feel like I do when I rev the Miata to 7000rpm, feels great but I may hurt something! What do you think?

Also, I hear sound from all the mids and tweeters so I think they are all fine.

Thanks again folks,
Morley

Aaron

For what it's worth I drive my RT800's with a Sony DA50ES receiver (100W x 5). While this isn't a low end receiver, I've never had any problems with it driving the RT800's.

Aaron

ziplin

I use Denon 4800. the prices are starting to fall around this great sounding reciever because the 4802 is out. I don't feel the need for the extra bells and whistles the newer reciever has and the 4800 effortlessly powers the RT800i with clean sound and clear lows. :cool: Of course this my just my thoughts and your requirements of a reciever and the sound that comes from your speakers is personal taste.
ziplin.

Dr. Spec

First, make sure your polarity is correct. I know it goes without saying, but double check that at both the receiver and the speakers. I've hooked up speakers out of phase exactly once in my life - now I triple check all connections.

Second, some receivers have what is known as a "Cinema EQ" function that enhances the bass and LFE channels for DVD playback. If your receiver is so equipped, shut off that feature.

Third, all speakers are fussy about placement - make sure the RT-800i's are far enough away from the corners.

Fourth - try bi-wiring them with decent speaker wire. Minimum should be 14 gauge. Bi-wiring can be tight on most receivers - I use Monster bannana plugs that can accept two 12 gauge wires and plug right into the receiver jacks.

Overall, I think the RT-800i is one of Polk's cleanest sounding speakers. It is essentially the unpowered top half of the RT-3000p. When coupled with two PSW-650s, you've got a killer system.

Good luck,

Dr. Spec

joe logston

wecome to the polk frum dr. spec; on the psw-650 subs do you have them, i got two of them, i put 2 rt-7 polks ontop with pedestals , for my mains .

DarqueKnight

Morley,

Once upon a time long ago, I tried running a pair of Polk RT55i's off of a Sony STR V333 ES receiver (100 wpc). The sound was awful: I got that "muddy" effect you spoke of. The bass was boomy and the highs and upper midrange were muffled. When I switched to a pair of Fanfare Acoustics Prelude bookshelf speakers, the muddiness/boominess disappeared. I also tried a pair of Polk SDA CRS+ speakers that worked great also.

I have five different models of Adcom amplifiers (GFA-555 Mk II, GFA-5802, GFA-565 monoblocks, GFA-5503, and GFA-55000) and when I connected the RT55i's to any of them, the sound was totally different in a positive way: Crisp detailed highs and no boominess in the bass at all. The sound was particularly good with the Adcom GFA-5802 amp (300 wpc).

I then tried running the preamp outputs of the Sony into an Adcom GFA-5300 amp and the sound was terrible again.

I agree with you, there must be somthing about Sony receivers that makes them incompatible with some Polk speakers.:(

Here's a tweak you might want to try with your RT800i's: replace the stock gold plated binding posts with good quality (12 guage) speaker wire. I noticed a big improvement in clarity when I did this with my RT55i's and RT35's.

jcaut

To answer your question about that second "treble" setting on your Sony: It's the center frequency. If you're setting to +6db, and 10kHz, then you should be getting a 6db boost in response, centered at 10 kHz. If you lower the "kHz" setting, then the 6 db boost will be concentrated around a lower frequency. It's kind of a parametric EQ-type control.

10 kHz is probably typical of most "treble" controls, and should be about right. If you go much lower than that, the control will have more of an effect on the upper-midrange.

I too, had a Sony V333 ES receiver that didn't agree with my RT800i's. I didn't notice so much of a problem with the highs as I had with the boomy uncontrolled-sounding bass and "steely" sounding midrange. At louder-than-background music levels, it sounded like the amp was running out of steam. I returned the Sony and got the Denon 3801 that I have now, and the difference was night and day. Next I added a Carver TFM-35 to the front pre-outs of the Denon, and again the improvement was substantial. I think that these dual-6.5" driver RT's, in particular, need an amp that's capable of a lot of current.

Jason

dean/klipschead

This sounds primarily like a placement issue. Get them at least two feet from the back walls and a foot or more from the side walls. Also, toe them in to reduce early reflections from the side walls.

If you are going to use the tone controls to change the balance -- I would recommend turning the bass down as opposed to turning treble up.

Now, something else to consider is this: You had bookshelves for a while. Bookshelves tend to sound tighter, faster, and crisper than towers. This quality is actually because of their limited low frequency response. People who have lived with bookshelves for some time find the transition difficult. The tower adds those lower registers back in and the system seems like its loping along instead of skimming.

This is due to the nature of bass itself. Bass has slower decay properties, and suddenly having more bass in a system lends the impression that the system has 'lost' something in the area of the treble and speed.

Basically -- the system becomes tipped up at the bottom causing the treble to fall back, and the system just seems 'slower' overall.

Towers are extremely sensitive to placement -- and I suspect that this is where your problem is.

If your listening room is such that you cannot move them out of the walls or back wall -- then turn that bass down until the highs appear. This will help until ...

...you can upgrade from that Sony.

I found this unit for $174 at http://www.bndonline.com/sonelstrde4h.html In order for Sony to give you all those bells and whistles at that price -- not much went into the amplifier section. Low end receivers do not use discrete components and your transistors are probably riding on IC's. This is not condusive to good sound. The highs are week and the bass is slow and fat with lots of overshoot (low damping factor).

Going with Sony ES, Denon, or Onkyo, or Outlaw would definitely help -- as all of these products use discrete components (individual resistors, capacitors, and transistors instead of IC's) and will have a higher damping factor -- which will tighten the bass up considerably. There won't be as much overshoot, and the bass loses that 'fat' quality that just seems to make everything sound so slow.

That Sony probably worked O.K. with your Athenas because they presented an easy load for the amp section. But now you have 'real' speakers and the Sony is choking.

Welcome to upgrade hell.

Start saving your money!

joe logston

hey dean where you been i put the aragon amp back with the yamaha rx-v1 mains out, and did a lot of tune up and it sounds a lot better i guess the yamaha was runing out of gas to, i put my denon poa-2400 amp on the surounds to and it cleaned up the surounds every channel is running cleaner and tighter my sound stage got alot deeper, deep deep deep ,and wide

dean/klipschead

hey joe

I went to Germany for a week - my Uncle passed on

Aragon is good stuff -- I can imagine it sounds much better indeed

kewl

joe logston

germany, thats a long way, sorry about your uncle, yes i put it in before but some reason it didnt sound right the frist time. but this time i changed a lot of the settings and got it to focus in the sound stage in 2 channel & multi-channel, but i need the new polk lsi-9 to replace my rt-7 , i know that it would be the perfect speaker for the aragon 4004 mark 2 the 4004 is 400 w at 4 ohms = 4004 or 200w at 8 ohms. the lsi-9 are 4 ohm speakers

good to see you back dean

Dr. Spec

Joe - thanks for the welcome. Actually, I'm running a CS400i, two RT800i's, two PSW 350s, and two CS245i's as surrounds.

My room is not large enough to merit two PSW 650s. I know the PSW 650 digs deeper than the PSW 350 by half an octave or so, but the difference is not really noticeable most of the time since very few soundtracks actually contain significant signals below 30 Hz. I prefer the PSW 350 over the PSW 450 because the woofer is faster and a bit tighter IMO. I have the two PSW 350's stacked and they look really cool. I'm running the volume at 12:00, so there is tons of headroom for DVDs like U-571 to really shine.

As for the CS245i as surrounds, I think this application is fairly unique, but this speaker really pounds it out as a surround. I only paid $150 each, and I have them standing on end on shelves as a mirrored pair, angled in towards the listening area. This speaker is flat to about 50Hz, and I run my receiver setting on "large" for the surrounds and I get a lot of bass from them. If you don't need the bi-directional speaker design of the FX series, I think the CS-245i is unbeatable as a surround.

Dr. Spec.

lax01

Dr. Spec, can you post pics? It sounds like you have a very interesting HT! I would really like to see the stacked 350s and the rear 245i's!

OrangeToupee

Awesome post, Dean, I think I learned a few things as a result of it.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by lax01
Dr. Spec, can you post pics? It sounds like you have a very interesting HT! I would really like to see the stacked 350s and the rear 245i's!

Thanks for your interest in my HT system. I don't have a digital camera - it's on the "to buy" list. I can probably borrow one from a family member and muddle my way through a pics post.

Initially I had the CS-245i's sitting flat on the back shelf of the room, but I could not angle them toward the listening area because the shelf is not deep enough. I was losing a little imaging this way, because the tweeter only has so much horizontal dispersion, and the listening position is withing 6 feet of the surrounds. So I tried standing them on end and angling them toward the listener (the sweet spot - my chair!). Imaging improved considerably. The only concession to fashion when standing the CS-245i's on end is that the "Polk Audio" emblem on the speaker grill is oriented sideways. The neat thing is they look like mini Polk towers and otherwise aesthetically match the RT-800i's very well.

As for the stacked PSW 350s - they are on the left side of my HDTV running off a Monster Y-splitter on the LFE channel, and the electronics are on the right, with the RT-800i's to the outside - it's a pretty balanced look. My HDTV is deep enough to accomodate the bruiser CS400i and it looks quite formidable atop the HDTV. Above the HDTV to the left and right are two trophy deer mounts that finish off the wall of fame!

Dr. Spec

joe logston

hi dr. spec, i have a cs 400i and i stand it on its end and it image great that way i been trying to tell the members on this forum to try it and they thank im crazy, but would you lay a rt-800i on its side like a center channel, most speakers are made to stand vertical. the cs-400i is built like a lsi-9 the sould coming from it standing vertical is improved a lot in detale, and deeper sound stage. one more thing about the cs-400i is that the lelt mid woofer is rolled off a little more than the right side.so it being so high off the ground because it sits on top of the tv. i put the right side up there it is not rolled off it gives a little hight on the botten end because i run 5 subs on the ground. it makes the bottem end sound more expanded.

i know im going to get hammerd for this post but what the hell