Good deal over at Crutchfield

audiobliss · May 2005

ROFL You just think you'd be happy with that Sony ES receiver! Surely you wouldn't really buy a Sony if you won the lottery.....I hope not. Those LSi's would make short work of that Sony.

VR3 · May 2005

Hehe... only receiver I know of that can power the LSi is made by NAD, Rotel, B&K, etc

LSI need power, and Sony ES is not exactly 'power'

MacLeod · May 2005

Yeah, I know. Sony sucks. Sony is the worst **** on the planet. Sony doesnt even belong in the market place. Same old tune.

I guess I must be the luckiest guy in the world. Lets see, my TV, mini system, computer, vcr, dvd, monitor, camcorder, digital camera and photo printer are all Sony and every single one of them have worked flawlessly for years. You would think as crappy as Sony obviously is that I would have bought at least one bad piece by now. :rolleyes:

audiobliss · May 2005

All right man, lose the 'tude.

I never said Sony is junk (though that is my personal opinion). What I said was that the Sony wouldn't be able to power the LSi series properly. The LSi series are 4ohm speakers, whereas most home audio speakers are from 8 - 6 ohms. The Sony would probably be able to make 'em humm a little, but definitely nothing special; not even close to full potential. If you ever got into a song and turned it up any, the Sony would (most likely) not be able to handle such a load and would shut-off. Even if it didn't, it would by no means be able to do the LSi series justice.

And even if it did, we're speaking hypothetically and we're saying that you won the lottery; why would you go with something anyone could go out and buy??

VR3 · May 2005

Sony ES is good gear...

But dosn't change the fact it cant run the LSi series, nor can either receiver in that type of range...

Rotel, B&K, Outlaw, NAD all offer receivers with ALOT of power to back them up...

neomagus00 · May 2005

doesn't something of that caliber deserve an external amp anyways? so what does it matter if the reciever can push them properly, if you have amps?

swerve · May 2005

who cares this isn't HT side so get the **** out of here.

love
-adam

VR3 · May 2005

A receiver + amp combo sucks compared to a preamp + amp combo.

A preamp is designed around the preamp output stage, where as most receivers just have the preouts there as a much-needed feature for future upgrade...

So with a preamp + amp, you get better sound than receiver + amp.

Most receivers have one power supply, shared between amps, tuners, and the processor. This is ALOT of things to be powered. Where as an amp, may have 1 or 2 power supplies helping power just the amp portion, while the preamp will have its own power supply...

Sony ES, Denon, Yamaha can't power 4 ohm speakers, or any speaker to its true potential for that matter. They will always be some type of 'weak link' until you step into receivers like B&K, Rotel, Outlaw, NAD, etc - or seperates...

MacLeod · May 2005

I get your point on the Sony/LSi configuration. I just assumed the ES would run at 4 ohms. I cant find out cause Sony doesnt have any of their receivers listed on their site (at least I cant find them) so I cant get their specs.

But saying that youll not power any speaker to its full potential without a $1000 receiver is hard to swallow. A watt is a watt. If a $300 Denon can make 100 watts RMS per channel real world and its hooked up to an 8 ohm speaker, itll power them just as well as that $1000 Rotel with 100 watts RMS per channel.

Not saying the Rotel isnt a better receiver cause it will have much better build quality and durability, the ability to run at a lower impedance not to mention having more and better tuning features which will allow you to get better sound thru tweaking. You do get what you pay for.

VR3 · May 2005

Fact is my friend, Denon dosnt push 100 watts per channel, real...

Infact, not many receivers do. Infact, most of them don't even top 30 watts...

Harmon Kardon is the only receiver I know of that has honest specs that isnt a 'high end brand'...

Most receivers dont top 50 watts, even the power house Denons with 170 watts x 14 of w/e...

There will be many cases where a 60 watt 2 channel amp will out muscle, out drive a 100+ receiver, and I mean that as an understatement..

a 100 watt amp vs. a 100 watt receiver isnt even fair. Because most receivers are measured at 1khz, with 10% distortion...

Power ratings are very much hard to go by, it all boils down to what is REALLY backing it up. My amp has two large caps and a nice big power supply and only sports 125 watts. Where as a receiver will have a moderate power supply, and two small caps and claim to push 100x5, while its also powering a processor and tuner at the same time? Ha! I don't think so!

Your forgetting one important detail. Yes, the Rotel can push lower impendances, but that is all part of the reason it can out-muscle the Denon or whatever receiver your speaking of. The Denon dosnt have the current to run low impendances. Therefore it wont have NEAR the headroom to power an 8 ohm speaker either. Where as the Rotel has enough headroom to run a 2 ohm speaker. Yet it is just using its guts to power a measly 8 ohm speaker. It has so much more reserve than the receiver ever will. Its not even funny. At 96db the receiver will be on the edge of protect mode, where as that 60 watt Rotel will be laughing it up...

neomagus00 · May 2005

exactly the same as CA...

but, does any of that influence the fact that speakers need amps, and that with an amp the reciever's power rating doesn't matter? i.e. what's the difference between preamp+amp and reciever+amp?

VR3 · May 2005

With a preamp, the receiver still has all that junk in there that is in the chain, the receiver amps (YUCK), processor, and tuner. Preamps usually just have the processor and tuner, and sometimes no tuner. And the entire unit is based around the preamp stage instead of the amp stage and just preouts there to fill the void to the next step...

So when you step up to the preamp, your looking at a power supply dedicated to processing instead of a whole bunch of features and BS that yall never need.

Having a receiver in the chain when you dont need it is NASTY. And should always be removed unless it is just superb quality like Rotel and B&K, etc...

The whole idea is seperation, a power supply per unit. Ideally, you would have a seperate preamp, seperate tuner, and seperate amp. This way nothing is sharing anything and everything is seperated. Note the word, seperates...

I am sure there are receivers for cars that are just preamps with no amps, and this would be ideal in a car to, I am sure.

VR3 · May 2005

Heres the caps in my amp that only push 125 watts...

Has a tord. transformer as well..

One of those caps are the equivilant of 4 or 5 caps yall find in a receiver for the entire unit...and this piece has TWO of them.

swerve · May 2005

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
I am sure there are receivers for cars that are just preamps with no amps, and this would be ideal in a car to, I am sure.

fosgate made that one!!!!!

VR3 · May 2005

Here is another amp that is rated at 205 watts at 8 ohms, note the huge power supply, about two times the size of the ones found in a receiver...

swerve · May 2005

he's extremely educated and i now wish i never dogged him.

sorry man

-adam

but i still want a snail shell or rear horn!

VR3 · May 2005

Thanks man, no problems here...

I'm not near as educated as others on the HT side as far as electronics go, or speakers. I am a small step beyond basics, stepping into advanced knowledge...

Just if I only knew how to sleep...eff

I got siked up about my crossover mods that a forum member did for me...lol, now I cant lay still for more than 10 minutes...also due to the poison oak on my left arm... itchy!

MacLeod · May 2005

There are car receiver that are pre-amp only but 99% of the head units out there have an amp. But they also have dedicated preouts and some like my Alpine have the option to turn off the amp.

I agree that seperates are better. Much better build quality, much more power, just better. Where Im off the resevation is that the Onk 502 (rated at 75x6 20-20K Hz at .08% THD) and is a high current and discrete amp, but only puts out 30 watts.

Now I have never measured the output of one of these things but I have played with them more times than I can count at my local Circuit City and these things get loud, very loud and cleanly. Ive been around audio long enough to know what 30 watts can and cant do. I just cant believe this thing is capable of less than its rated output.

With car head units you get power ratings that are way overstated but this is only due to the head unit is limited by size. A good receiver is freaking huge! Plenty big enough to handle 500 watts. Hell most 500 watt receivers are as big as 1000 watt car amps.

Maybe Im wrong. Woudlnt be the first time but while we are both agreeing that seperates is the best way to go, you can still power speakers properly with a good, quality (read NOT a $99 RCA) receiver. Otherwise there is not point in getting good speakers as I simply cant afford the $1000-2000 it would cost for a NAD pre-amp and amp.

VR3 · May 2005

Let me do this fast and swiftly...and don't be offended by the forwardness either...

Take a 1,000 dollar receiver, ANY of them...

Go to the back of the unit, and look at the power consumed, Max...

it will be around 400-500 watts, REMEMBER THIS IS MAX, IN THE LOWEST IMPENDENCE, counting!! the processor AND TUNER!!!

Ok, now take an amp like the Adcom GFA-545...

It is 100 x 2 at 8 ohms, it consumes a MAX of 500 watts!!!

Case...Point...Set...Match

When a receiver is only drawing in 500 watts for the entire unit, it can only be putting out no more than 20-30 watts...

Forwardness part of the post off...
There are plenty of receivers like the Pioneer Elite VSX-41 which had an excellent preamp stage, and you can pick it up for like 300 shipped used, and then you can pick up the Adcom GFA-545 for 250, then the Adcom GFA-535 (2 of them) for around 300, and you are under 1,000 with all the features, and 5 times the power of every other receiver on the market.

Thats the way to go, period/end.

MacLeod · May 2005

Go here. $400 Denon.

Power consumption= 4 amps
Power source = 120 volts

Ohms law = 480 watts.

This thing is rated at 75x6 or 450 total. So that would mean this thing is putting out 80x6 max and probably 50 at a real world level.

So this would tend to suggest we are both wrong. Its more than 30 but less than 75. Unless Im figuring wrong. Its been a while since I studied Ohms law!

VR3 · May 2005

Your getting closer... but your not quite right

75x6 = 450 watts

450 watts is the max consumption...

That means 450 watts is the absolute MAX amount of power it will EVER draw, and if 75 watts is its RMS rating, it is completely off...

As it isnt figuring the 6 ohm load, or the possible 4 ohm load it may face, in which the power load doubles. Therefore it is past its max power consumption. This is only the amplifier stage...

Your not even considering the processor stage and the tuner, which usually only require 50 watts max...
Your looking at like 30-35 watts at 8 ohms, and thats probally not even clean watts, thats probally on its last breath. Then you consider all the noise from the tuner and processor sharing the same chasis...

Assuming it only takes in 50 watts in the tuner/preamp section, and it doubles power at 4 ohms (doubt it has that much power)... it would put out 33.33 watts at 8 ohms...

VR3 · May 2005

Most amps are as follows when it comes to 2 channel...

Max Consumption divided by 2.5, that number divided by 2, and that is the RMS power at 8 ohms

For instance...

500/2.5 = 200/2 = 100x2 (Adcom GFA-545)

This leave plenty of reserve to handle the 4 ohm or 2 ohm load it may have to do for short passages, or the constant 4 ohm load it may have to endure...

Its all about headroom, clean power, and having nothing else sharing the chasis or power supply.

MacLeod · May 2005

I woundnt think the processor would take up that much juice. Hell it aint much more than lights.

Either way tho even if the processor took up no juice there wouldnt be enough to make its rated power by a long shot. An amp rated at 75 watts barely hitting 50 if that. That is shameful!

So I concede. Receiver dont make their rated power. However I still say they make more than 30!

{sigh} Seperates it is.

Like I dont have enough **** to spend money on! Ive got to stop hanging out on here!

Thanks for the enlightenment Sid!

VR3 · May 2005

Eh...

My 2 channel preamp with nothing but basics takes up 30 watts max... and your talking about a 6 channel processor with 3 times the gizmos, I am under-rated on my max consumption pal...

Receivers are there to fill a void of one components. Some receivers can compare to seperates, but they cost more than seperates

MacLeod · May 2005

OK. So how the hell can these guys get away with advertising 100x6 and not making 50x6?

If a car audio amp manufacturer tried to put out amps that didnt make rated power (Alphasonik) they would be relegated to flea market status and shunned. But this seems to be ok in HA. Why?

VR3 · May 2005

They're actually probally not lieing...

That my infact be its power at .0000000000000000000000000001 of a second at 110% distortion where the amp is about to catch on fire...

The receiver market is full of BS like this, because it is what the general public goes by... WATTAGE - nothing else. You wont see this in the seperate amp market, most of the time. As if a company did, they would lose a lot of credibility among people that buy their stuff...

Its just a form of marketing man... just what the times have come to. Its how companies like Bose survive, mis-information and BS...

MacLeod · May 2005

Well that Denon is rated at 75x6 full bandwidth at .08% THD.

After sitting here thinking about it I think I found their loophole. It doesnt state "all channels driven". So that thing actually does make 75 watts full bandwidth at .08%. The catch is it can only do it thru one channel!

VR3 · May 2005

Originally posted by MacLeod
Well that Denon is rated at 75x6 full bandwidth at .08% THD.

After sitting here thinking about it I think I found their loophole. It doesnt state "all channels driven". So that thing actually does make 75 watts full bandwidth at .08%. The catch is it can only do it thru one channel!

:cool:

MacLeod · May 2005

Still. They woulnt get away with that **** in the CA world. Virtually all quality amps far exceed their rated power.

You HA guys need to have an uprising!

VR3 · May 2005

How many people buying it actually care though?

Those receivers usually can power most any speaker people buying receivers can afford. It just wont power them to the full potential...

Receivers are good. Seperates are better.

Good deal over at Crutchfield

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