high end

joe logston

whats high end, what do you thank, i thank that it means high price, a way to be different,a way to make money on hipe, the best way to cure high end is to use your ears, do a lot of foot work, lisning, and thank god for the forums, in case you cant go 400 mi. to listen, its like the bose co. they get you though hipe, if most people just take a lisen to some of the products that are sold in the audio market and use there ears. bose would have to make a better product, and the high end lower there prices and get rid of all the phony tweeks & hipes, or go out of bussness. there are good quality products out there for one polk audio, theres klipsch, ar, boston, and so on dont listen to me just use your ears, the high price dose not make it better

Aaron

I haven't been disappointed with any of the high end equipment I've listened to. It has all sounded better, in varying degrees, than lower end products. What you say it a gross over-generalization.

Aaron

DarqueKnight

The "high end" in audio is just like the "high end" in anything else, be it clothes, automobiles, or homes. True high end companies set the standards for leading edge research, performance, materials, and maunfacturing processes. Many of the innovations that first appear in high end products eventually trickle down to mass market goods.

Certainly, the customer base of high end goods is small relative to the "mass market". This, coupled with smaller manufacturing runs and higher material costs usually, but not always, translates to much higher costs. There is hype in the high end just as there is in any market segment. I don't know that hype is any more prevalent in the high end. Furthermore, as in any industry, there are companies that represent themselves as high end but really are not. Slick marketing and an uninformed clientele have made many a millionaire.

I have heard some high end gear that impressed me and I have heard some that did not. I have heard gear that did some things better than the equipment I have now, but I would have had to pay a lot more money for relatively small increases in performance. For some people, it's worth the money, for me it's not. There is such a thing as diminishing returns. After listening to an $8,000 pair of Dunlavey SC IVa's, I wasn't blown away to the point that I no longer liked my $1,800 SDA 1C's. In fact, I wasn't blown away by the Dunlaveys at all, at least not sonically. Now, if you ask me about the gorgeous exotic wood finish of the Dunlaveys............;)

dean/klipschead

i believe in diminishing returns

the high dollar, top notch stuff does sound better -- but never 10 times better

I believe well designed $$$ can bring you within 90% of $$$$ gear -- and well designed $$$$ can get you 95% of $$$$$

I am more impressed and can really enjoy a $900 set of speakers when I know they sound 'almost' as good as a $3000 set of speakers.

TroyD

I find that in high end gear, there is a lot LESS hype than with middle to low end. I would also venture this to be true about more than audio gear.

Most high end companies don't advertise like the middle to low companies. They tend to let thier product be it's own advertising.

The hype usually comes from the people who own or use the gear. A lot of times I think the placebo effect is pretty high. If a guy spends 5K on an amp, he HAS to convince himself and others that it is superior to say a 7 or 8 hundred dollar amp. So you get a lot of claims that may or may not be completely factual.

Troy

dean/klipschead

I think about the placebo effect everytime I see $3000 for a set of speaker cables.

That's right -- hook $3K up to $10 binding posts and .70 cents worth of clip wire inside the speaker.

yeesh

mantis

LET ME SET THE FACTS STRAIGHT!!!!!!
I work for a high end store.Soundex in Willow grove Pa on 611.We carry Krell,Mark Levinston,Wilson audio,Dunlavy,Martin Logan,B&W,Dynaudio,Rotel,Audio Reasearch tube pre amps and amps,Regga,Transparent,etc,etc,etc.
I have heard just about every thing on the planet from best buy to us.I used to work for Tweeter so I know there whole line as well.Quality goes up as you spend more period.Does that mean that Wilson audio Watt/puppies at 20k are for everybody???NO.dO THEY OUT PERFORM EVERYTHING UP TO 20K?MAYBE.Does Krell make the best amps in the world?Do I need to answer that??
My point is this........................Buy what you can afford.There's something out there for everybody,most us us (including myself)are in the middle class.You can build a killer system if you match the right Gear together.In here everybody loves there Polk's.Can you make the most of them??Sure.Will you be happy with them even though you could have bought the B&W 801's???Maybe.
In all my years as a hobbiest and a professional,mating the right gear with the right gear is key!!!!!!If you mate out of your class,chances are that you will be defeating what the better gear can do.Amp's and speaker's/wire is where you need to match the most.They play the biggest role in over all sound quality.Sources are important as well but don't make as noticable difference as wire/speaker's/amps do.
Here's a good point...follow me......
f you own the rt55i's...nice sounding bookshelf,one of the best if not the best in it's class.Mate it with a Denon avr3801 and here what the speaker can do,clean,clear warm,you could listen forever.Now take that same speaker and mate it with Onkyo/Integra8.2 or even the 9.1 and you will get a more brighter sound,overdriven,tinty.Now take that same speaker and mate it with a B&K avr307(which is alittle out of it's class)and the speaker come's alive with great force,more open then it ever sounded before.Your speaker now sound's something like the B&W's you were drooling over.
Wire will do the same thing to your system.It will brighten it up ,cool it down,smooth out the ruff edges,etc.Buy cheap wire and choke your speaker's.Buyu good wire and here what that speaker can do.
I know alot of you love testing your gear,swapping out this amp for that,changing 2 wire to bi wire,better wire,slate boards and room treatment.It's all good, even the Integra has a home somewhere.(not mine but that is a personal point).
But back to the HIGH END STUFF......It's all good as long as you mate it right.Mate a Tube amp with Dynaudio contour 3.0 and it will be boomy,muddy mess.Take that same speaker and put in on a Mark Levinston,well breath taking in a understatment.
Martin Logan speaker's love tube amp's and preamps for that matter.But Krell seem's to be able to drive everything to perfection.It's a toss up what sounds better on the Logan's Krell or audio Research.
Dan

TroyD

I agree with Aaron that I have enjoyed the high end gear that I have listened to. I also think that the high end products are generally less hyped by the manufacturer than mid level companies.
I GENERALLY agree that you also get what you pay for. Generally being the operational term.

I also think that the placebo effect in audio is alive, well and kicking and that it is fostered (no offense to anyone and I mean that) understandibly by a lot of people trying to make a living selling gear. Hey, they have mortgages to pay too!

While I will grant that a Carver or an Adcom isn't a Levinson, Krell or whatever amp you fancy I still stand by the theory of diminishing returns. I said it before and I will say it again. A 5K Levinson does not sound 10X better than a 500 dollar Carver. To say it sounds twice as good is still a healthy stretch.

I agree that mating gear appropriately is a good thing. Common sense would dictate that a 5K amp through a pair of Cerwin Vegas is probably a waste. However I will stop short of saying that this brand sounds best with that brand. On my gear, the only person qualified to tell me what sounds best is me, I, numero uno honcho. I've said this a million times, this is a subjective hobby and what sounds great to me may sound like crap to someone else. What else could explain the sales of Klipsch (sorry Dean, had to throw a jab at ya, podner)

No offense to anyone, this isn't a hobby where you can quantify gear in absolute terms.

Troy

dean/klipschead

Mantis said:

"Amp's and speaker wire is where you need to match the most. They play the biggest role in over all sound quality. Sources are important as well but don't make as noticable difference as wire/speaker's/amps do."

****.

To say that a cable makes a bigger difference than a source component is completely untrue.

I can also think of a few tube products that could drive a set of Dynaudio Contour 3.0's quite well. A set of these for starters: http://www.caryaudio.com/cad280sa.html

If you are going to set us straight with facts ... then please use facts -- instead of rhetoric.

mantis

Dean,
let me ask you this.How much experience do you have with amps???What about wire???Have you sat infront of your gear with 5 different brands of cables and heard a difference with every brand??
You say ****,I say if you can hear it,then it does make a difference.
I did the test 500x over and over with interconnect's and speaker wire(not much with video but some).
1.take a patchcord that came with your gear.play a song you really know well.Then swap it out for a better cable like Monstercable m500 series.then Monstercable m950i's.Straight chourus,then put in a pair of Transparent music link.If you can't hear a difference from cable to cable,then you really don't know what your listening for.Experience makes all the difference in the world,but good ears go a long way.
The amp thing...well after you prove it to yourself how much amp/speaker/wire combo's make....you will never really know what your missing.I don't know what you own, but I bet with some time you could unlock all of it's full glory.
And how do you know that cables don't make a bigger difference then sources??did you test 100 different cd players on the same amp,preamp,interconnect??I did,thats why I said what I said.I don't go reading around the internet and read everybodies opnion and go with that,it's a good start but without hours and hours of testing you will never know what you are missing out on.
But hey thats cool,not all of us are picky with what we hear.......
Dan

pensacola

There's a certain amount of elitism in audiophilia.

No one would admit it, but our buying decisions are sometimes based on whether it will be deemed a good choice by others—not on our personal observation and reasoning.
How many of us have purchased speaker cable because it "should" sound better than 14-gauge lamp cord? If we did an A/B on it in our system and couldn't hear a difference, it would be a little embarrassing that we justified spending many times the cost of lamp cord on something we were told was better. How many more CDs or DVDs could have we bought for the same amount of money—and ended up with something truly tactile?

In a way, (by buying higher-priced gear) we are buying the security of knowing that someone, somewhere, thinks we're the s*it, because we can "hear the difference". That makes us feel good. For some, that security is worth the extra cost.

The question, before spending a dime on a particular tweak or piece of equipment (including interconnects and accessories) should be, "Is this going to make an audible improvement from what I have now?"—if, in fact, we will be claiming as much to ourselves and others.

Give me $10,000 to spend on a (2-channel) system, and I will spend 70-80% of it on the speakers. Why? Because that is where I can honestly answer "yes" to the question above. But, for some others, they've been able to hear big enough differences in amps or sources—or even cables—to justify putting more dollars towards them, and less towards the speakers.

I know it's a personal choice, but I have to sometimes question the basis for others' decisions (and the claims they make to back up those decisions)—simply because I know it's human nature to buy that security blanket described above.

madmax

Mantis said:

"Wire will do the same thing to your system.It will brighten it up ,cool it down,smooth out the ruff edges,etc.Buy cheap wire and choke your speaker's.Buyu good wire and here what that speaker can do."


I think I understand what Mantis was saying about cables. I agree somewhat because sometimes a source unit will be a little too bright or dull given the rest of your equipment and it is possible to even it out somewhat with the appropriate cable.

In any case though if the source unit is sloppy or not up to standards no cable is going to fix it. "You can't polish a tird."
madmax

mantis

by the way...my test with the Dynaudio's and audio research tube pre amp and amp's was muddy sounding when compared to the mark levinson.Dynaudio speaker's don't like tubes,they are very strong down low.With tubes,the sound became overpowering with bass.The high's were softer which they don't need to be with the greatest tweeter ever made.Dynaudio has been making tweeter's for most of the high end speaker companies for years.Where you find high end you find Dynaudio tweeters.Now if you mate the B&W 800 of the Martin Logan Prodigy with tubes???big difference.Clean,clear open soundstage.B&W's are slightly bright on the top end and stong but not over powering on the bottom end,mid range is about as good as it get's.The tube amp really mates well.Mind you that most test's were done with Transparent.Monstercable came into play but almost everything fell off using sigma retro's(top of the line Monster).
Dan

dean/klipschead

I didn't say there wasn't a difference between cables or that there wasn't a shifting in sonic signature when utilizing different amp/cable combinations.

I objected to your comment that the differences were bigger than changing out source components.

I have the same problem with tubes. People make it sound like going from KT88's to EL34's is like swapping speakers out. The difference is usually so miniscule that a casual listener would never hear the difference.

As to my experience -- I've certainly done my time in Cable Hell. I'm presently using MIT 2 Biwires, TMC XLR/XLR balanced, and Monster M550i's. No apologies for the Monsters. They are the best value in audio.

I've been dinking with this stuff since the 70's -- I have a pretty good idea what's going on. In the early 80's I practically lived in high end stores.

At any rate -- I say swapping out a Sony mass market CD player with something like my Anthem CD1 will make a bigger difference than ANY cable.

mantis

good piont Dean but if you put a patch cord on the cd player you will not hear what it can do.Mit good cable, did you know that they are a fall off company to Transparent???They formed from Transparent,the big brick's on your cables are network block's.I can go into what they do but you might already know.
Dan

dean/klipschead

The Transparents use an active network. The MIT's are passive. The inducters in the MIT's are not in the signal path.

I used to know what they did -- but then I read the MIT white papers and promptly lost a few chromosomes and a fair portion of brain matter. I think the white papers use some sort of brain washing -- so that after you understand -- you forget everything. Kind of like that thing Will Smith used on Tommy in Men in Black.

joe logston

im not saying that high end grear is bad, it is good, the big co. get a lot of idias from the high end co. and they do make better stuff . but there is a lot of hipe out there. i listen to a lot of stuff that cost a hole lot more and there is not that much difference in sound some times its sounds bad compare a speaker like polk to a speaker like arieo i heard these at the ces convention they cost $5,000 a pr. to me the polks souned a little better, whats the deal, it mite the tube amp they where useing with it.

dean/klipschead

thats o.k. joe -- i can relate. I thnk my RF7's sound better than anything. But people keep insisting they don't

mantis

I feel the same way about my B&K st140/Transparent/rt1000p's setup.I just love whe way it sounds.
liking your gear isn't a bad thing...it's a good thing!!
Dan

pensacola

>>liking your gear isn't a bad thing...it's a good thing!!

It's all in the ear of the beerholder.:rolleyes:

joe logston

yes i got to go by my ears and what i heard is that if i was to set them up in that theater those klipsck rf-7 would better than most of the high end speakers that i have heard , exept 2 wilson watt puppys & the old geneiss the big panel electrolstatic. what did they do to the tweeters

joe logston

that why polk change there tweeter in the lsi modal becaues klipsch change there horn loaded tweeter. to keep up i know one thing that the high end speaker builders are in deep sh**

dean/klipschead

One thing i find funny is that polk, klipsch, and Bose have one thing in common -- the high end would gladly live without us.

Of course, Bose is in a class all it's own -- they are hated by everyone:)

joe logston

hey dean try to move your speakers wend you hook your bryston amp up to your rf-7 the sonic change you get from tube to transister is big one spred them a little try to to piont them 90 degrees forward use a streate edge or a string to parallel get it right on and hear the differance

dean/klipschead

thats how i have them now

i lean forward and them horns latch right on to my head:eek:

pensacola

>>Of course, Bose is in a class all it's own -- they are hated by everyone

Ahh,yes—but they have their place.
I had four 201's in a bar, cranking it 365 nights a year for 5 years (on a Denon amp), and they did fabulous. About a 1,000 s.f. room, and I got nothing but compliments on them. They're not good enough for my home listening room, but they did what I asked them to under the circumstances.

dean/klipschead

what you say is true

joe logston

on the klipsch rf-7 there should be a little credit given to the pioneer vsx-49tx reciver it is the best receiver i have heard so far in 2 channel i herad the dennon 5800 i didnt hear the 5803 yet i have the yamaha rx-v1 but the yamaha haves a better surround sound to it but the klipsch speakers was not set up right so cant say whos the best to my ears. and there is the differance in the rooms & speakers i got polks at home. if i could set the kilpsch up right all 7 speakers and a sub at ultimate electronics it mite sound better then my system at home running pro logic 2 that poineer receiver is a nice piece the klipsck speaker are better than my rt-20p polks . till i hear the lsi seres. sorry

dean/klipschead

receivers hurt my ears;)

DarqueKnight

There certainly is a measure of "snob appeal" in buying higer priced, higer end audio gear, however, I feel that most who shop in that market do so because the equipment at that level is better at REPRODUCING THE LIVE MUSIC EXPERIENCE. Most audio gear consumers, I think, are not after that lofty ideal.

My interest in better audio gear came about as a consequence of my interest in studying music. I only became dissatisfied with my cheapo audio gear after noticing that the sound of music played on it was not even remotely similar to what I heard at a jazz or classical musical concert.

Real music is the reference by which I judge any piece of audio gear. For me, audio nirvanna is the sound of a jazz combo in a small club or recording studio. My main audio system, with well-recorded analogue records and CD's, reproduces that sound rather well. It takes me where I want to go. Now, if I were interested in reproducing the sound of a 50 piece orchestra in my living room, I'm sure that different amps, speakers, source components and a much larger living room, would be required.

As for the occasional pop, rock, rap, etc., that I sometimes listen to as the mood strikes me......well, most of that stuff is so over produced and recorded with layer upon layer, artificial sound effect upon artificial sound effect, and sound track upon sound track, that it bears no semblance to a real vocal or instrumental sound. Really good gear for most music in those genres is wasted. I'm not knocking anyone's musical preference, just stating a sad, sad truth about today's recording industry.

As Troy D said, this is all subjective. If you are fortunate enough to have found some gear that accurately reproduces the music you like, be happy, love life, and thank whatever gods you pray to that you made such a wonderful discovery.:cool:

soupbone

So how do my SDA SRS 1.2tl's Stack up? Are they HIGH END? In terms of money spent they should be. Over 3K ten years ago. I've looked inside to see what I was paying for. A 3K speaker and the wire going to the midrange drivers isn't even oxygen free copper. But I should spend big money on cable right. I just hooked up an Aragon 4004 amp today. It replaced my 2004. I can tell a huge difference in clarity, sound staging and impact. Is my Aragon HIGH END? I don't care because I'm enjoying it! Call it what you want. You spend so much time on the equipment and what supposed to sound better. JUST ENJOY THE MUSIC! I have to go now.........searching the web for new equipment. Soupbone