Power Conditioner recommendations...
Comments
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Noise from the AC Source to the DC Link
Harmonics: If the AC-DC rectifier is a simple diode rectifier without active PFC, it will draw non-sinusoidal current from the AC source, generating its own harmonics. However, it will also be susceptible to harmonics present in the incoming AC source. These harmonics can propagate through the rectifier and appear as ripple on the DC link. Active PFC circuits are designed to mitigate input harmonics and can provide a degree of isolation from source harmonics (Power Electronics Handbook).
Transients: High-frequency transients on the AC input can couple through the rectifier and appear on the DC link. Surge protection devices (SPDs) and input filters (e.g., common-mode and differential-mode filters) are often employed at the AC input to attenuate these transients before they reach the rectifier (Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering).
EMI/RFI: Conducted EMI/RFI on the AC input can also propagate through the rectifier. Input filters are crucial for suppressing these high-frequency components. The rectifier itself can also be a source of EMI due to its switching action (Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering).
Noise on the DC Link
The DC link acts as an energy storage element and, ideally, a buffer between the AC-DC and DC-AC stages. However, noise can still be present on the DC link from both the input (rectifier) and the output (inverter).
Ripple from Rectifier: As discussed, the rectifier's output ripple is a form of noise on the DC link.
Inverter Switching Noise: The inverter's switching action draws pulsating current from the DC link, which can create ripple and high-frequency noise on the DC voltage. The DC link capacitor is critical for absorbing these current pulsations and maintaining a relatively stable DC voltage (Power Electronics: Converters, Applications, and Design).
CONTINUED...~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Noise from the DC Link to the AC Output
Ripple and Low-Frequency Noise: Any significant ripple or low-frequency noise present on the DC link will be modulated by the inverter and appear in the AC output. While the output filter is designed to remove high-frequency switching noise, it may not be effective at attenuating low-frequency ripple originating from the DC link (Power Electronics Handbook).
High-Frequency Noise (Switching Harmonics): The primary noise generated by the inverter itself is the high-frequency switching harmonics. The output filter is specifically designed to attenuate these components, aiming to produce a clean sinusoidal output. The effectiveness of this filter is crucial in determining the quality of the output AC (Power Electronics: Converters, Applications, and Design).
EMI/RFI: The high-frequency switching of the inverter can generate significant EMI/RFI, both conducted and radiated. Output filters, shielding, and proper PCB layout are essential for mitigating this noise (Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering).
Isolation and Attenuation Mechanisms
Several mechanisms are employed in AC-DC-AC converters to isolate and attenuate noise from the original AC source:
Input Filters: These are typically passive filters (LC or RLC) placed at the AC input to attenuate common-mode and differential-mode noise, including EMI/RFI and some transients, before they reach the rectifier (Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering).
Active Power Factor Correction (PFC): As mentioned, active PFC circuits can actively shape the input current, reducing harmonics drawn from the source and providing a degree of isolation from source harmonics (Power Electronics Handbook).
DC Link Capacitors: Large DC link capacitors are essential for smoothing the rectified DC voltage and absorbing the pulsating current drawn by the inverter. They act as a low-pass filter, attenuating high-frequency noise on the DC link (Power Electronics: Converters, Applications, and Design).
Output Filters: LC filters at the inverter output are critical for removing the high-frequency switching harmonics generated by the inverter, ensuring a clean sinusoidal AC output (Power Electronics Handbook).
Galvanic Isolation: In some applications, a transformer is used at either the input (before rectification) or the output (after inversion) to provide galvanic isolation. This physically separates the input and output circuits, preventing the direct conduction of common-mode noise and providing a safety barrier (The Electrical Engineering Handbook). An input transformer can also help in attenuating common-mode noise and some differential-mode noise from the source.
Control Algorithms: Advanced control algorithms in the inverter can actively compensate for disturbances on the DC link and improve the quality of the output AC waveform, further reducing the impact of noise (Power Electronics: Converters, Applications, and Design).
Conclusion
In summary, a device that converts AC to DC and then DC to AC is designed to produce a clean AC output, ideally isolated from the noise of the original AC source. However, perfect isolation is an engineering ideal that is approached but never fully achieved.
Harmonics from the original AC source can propagate through the rectifier, especially if it lacks active PFC, and appear as ripple on the DC link, which can then affect the AC output. Active PFC significantly mitigates this.
Transients and EMI/RFI from the AC source can couple through the rectifier and appear on the DC link. Effective input filtering and surge protection are crucial to attenuate these.
The DC link acts as a buffer, with its capacitors absorbing much of the high-frequency noise. However, low-frequency ripple on the DC link can still be passed to the AC output.
The inverter's own switching action generates high-frequency noise, which is then attenuated by the output filter.
Therefore, while the converter significantly attenuates and transforms the noise characteristics, it is generally not entirely immune to passing some form of noise originating from the original AC source. The extent to which this occurs depends on the sophistication of the converter's design, the quality of its components, and the effectiveness of its filtering and control mechanisms. A well-designed AC-DC-AC converter with robust filtering and, potentially, galvanic isolation, can provide a very high degree of noise attenuation, but some residual noise, particularly low-frequency components or highly energetic transients, may still find its way to the output.
So, you stated that you "investigated"?
LOL
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Not only my ears but others confirmed this. It is what it is.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Still not passing any noise from the original source no matter what you copy and paste...LOL!!!
Post edited by F1nut onPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I can copy and paste as well.AC to DC conversion: The first stage of the power conversion takes the incoming AC power and rectifies it into a DC power. During this process, the fluctuating AC signal is smoothed out, effectively removing the AC noise from the initial signal.
DC to AC conversion: The filtered DC is then used to create a new AC waveform. In a high-quality system, this will be a smooth, clean sine wave. If the system is a lower-quality square wave inverter, the resulting AC output will have its own set of noise, but this is a new noise, not the original noise from the AC line.
Inverter quality: The final output quality is determined by the quality of the inverter, not the original AC input. If the final AC output is noisy, the problem is with the inverter itself, its components, or its design.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
We will agree to disagree on this.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Seriously?
Damn.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
So, can you tell us otherwise?
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
If ya'll want to stop playing around with power conditioning and want to go all the way pick up one either of these....
EQUI=TECH 20WQ, 15WQ or the 10WQ.... depending on how much amperage is needed.
You're welcome.
If I were to replace my P1000 this would be the only one on my list, Equi=Tech 2RQ, if I were to go with a portable piece.
Although "portable" @ 72 lbs may be a dream at my age. Gonna need a dolly 😳
Have had my eye on one of these for years but I just can't manage the price. -
4 pages of nut talk and no agreement? Par for the course here.
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Already posted suggestions, what more info is needed?
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4 pages of nut talk and no agreement? Par for the course here.
Take a long walk off a short plank... You don't like the topic, then shut your piehole and stay out of the discussion.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
Now now boys- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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nooshinjohn wrote: »
I will post where/when I want. I was just pointing out the argumentative nature of this thread in "Basic Hookup/Wiring." None of this is basic hookup. -
Plugging in audio gear is pretty "basic" in the grand scheme of things.....
Just saying
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The wiring flow is out to in right?- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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All I will add is that I used an EMI meter to measure line noise from multiple outlets in my house, then measured again through 4 different power conditioners, including a PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 Regenerator, and that one had the least effect in reducing line noise.
Average reading from three wall outlets was 606. Readings from same outlets through conditioner sockets are shown below. All readings were done during the day, within just a few minutes.
From best to worst:- Puritan PSM156 Purifier - average <20
- Chang Lightspeed Powerline Filter CLS-6400 - average 133
- PS Audio PowerPlay IPC-9000 Conditioner - average 142
- PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 Regenerator - average 155
"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Jaguar audio has a 45 day trial period on the puritan conditioners.
Just ran across them over the weekend. Seems like they are one of the few that has stock at the moment, too.
Happen to have any current coupon codes for them?
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Teac VRDS-701T CD transport | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
All I will add is that I used an EMI meter to measure line noise from multiple outlets in my house, then measured again through 4 different power conditioners, including a PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 Regenerator, and that one had the least effect in reducing line noise.
Average reading from three wall outlets was 606. Readings from same outlets through conditioner sockets are shown below. All readings were done during the day, within just a few minutes.
From best to worst:- Puritan PSM156 Purifier - average <20
- Chang Lightspeed Powerline Filter CLS-6400 - average 133
- PS Audio PowerPlay IPC-9000 Conditioner - average 142
- PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 Regenerator - average 155
Those are still sizable drops in EMI percentage wise from 606. 606 for household circuits seems pretty high? Dirty wall warts, led lighting and especially led dimmers cause mine to go up.
My household emi is 3-400 normally. On my dedicated lines on the opposite 120 leg normally under 100. Out of the back of my fuman ref20I 40-50. I piggy back a 15 amp belkin conditioner from the furman for my really dirty but low draw power supplies and I've had the emi down to a steady 9 with an occasional 7 or 8 flashing. -
nooshinjohn wrote: »
I will post where/when I want. I was just pointing out the argumentative nature of this thread in "Basic Hookup/Wiring." None of this is basic hookup.
So you're butt-hurt cause this topic is being discussed in the "Basic Hookup/Wiring" category.
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skipshot12 wrote: »nooshinjohn wrote: »
I will post where/when I want. I was just pointing out the argumentative nature of this thread in "Basic Hookup/Wiring." None of this is basic hookup.
So you're butt-hurt cause this topic is being discussed in the "Basic Hookup/Wiring" category.
I'm not butt-hurt in the least. That seems to be the OP who seemed to be offended by my early comment yesterday, which wasn't even directed at him. I just find it humorous that practically every technical thread at this forum turns into a multi-page argument between the same players. -
^Gotcha
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skipshot12 wrote: »nooshinjohn wrote: »
I will post where/when I want. I was just pointing out the argumentative nature of this thread in "Basic Hookup/Wiring." None of this is basic hookup.
So you're butt-hurt cause this topic is being discussed in the "Basic Hookup/Wiring" category.
I'm not butt-hurt in the least. That seems to be the OP who seemed to be offended by my early comment yesterday, which wasn't even directed at him. I just find it humorous that practically every technical thread at this forum turns into a multi-page argument between the same players.
LOL!!! Put down the pipe, no one is arguing except you, and it’s with yourself..
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PS Audio P10 for 1700…. What do you guys think of that?The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
That's a really good price, not as good as $800 for my P1000 but, still really good.
If you're in the market that's a good buy.
PS Audio, Equitech or Richard Gray's substations are the real deal.
If you end up with the P10 I'd like to hear your impressions.... whether you hear or not hear a difference.
Like I said earlier, we are really close to one of our main substations and am lucky to have exceptional stability and clean power.
I cannot hear any difference in my power conditioning ventures in my system, not bitching just lucky.
The only reason I'm getting rid of my PowerPlant. -
nooshinjohn wrote: »PS Audio P10 for 1700…. What do you guys think of that?
Obviously, I’m partial to the piece in question…
I’m never seen a better price. I paid 2800 for mine. I think it was two years old at the time. It’s works flawlessly for 10 yearsAC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampizator Baltic 4 DAC
Pre Cary SLP-05
Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
Mains Salk HT2-TL
Rythmik F12 -
Cannot go wrong at that price John.
If you haven't seen it already here's a nice review of that P10....
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-p10-power-plant-ac-regenerator -
So what did we decide? I got money to spend!! LOL!!!
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