Sonos Vs Bluesound.
Comments
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Get a Tidal account.
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Soulseek!
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Why are we using lossy Spotify as the source when attempting to make any sort of meaningful comparisons between electronic source components?
Well it is a comparison of entry level lifestyle type products through an avr. I imagine most people with that setup would be using Spotify or airplaying Apple Music etc...
And what is wrong with using an AVR?
Nothing if you don't want to hear the difference between the two steaming products. -
Dan, you know I loved my B&K stuff, still have it, but even with those, I never really experienced the stereo performance nuances I get with "lesser" integrateds.
Maybe newer stuff is better for the 2ch options using AVRs/processors? You'd know better than I.
I've never had a profound listening experience for music with an AVR, though.I disabled signatures. -
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Why are we using lossy Spotify as the source when attempting to make any sort of meaningful comparisons between electronic source components?
Well it is a comparison of entry level lifestyle type products through an avr. I imagine most people with that setup would be using Spotify or airplaying Apple Music etc...
And what is wrong with using an AVR?
Nothing if you don't want to hear the difference between the two steaming products.
So what you are saying is my Integra DRX8.4 Flagship AVR isn't able to replay sound good enough to tell the differences between sources? Really ? So how high end does one need to be to be able to hear differences? Because at a $3200.00 AVR just doesn't cut in your opinion.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Dan, you know I loved my B&K stuff, still have it, but even with those, I never really experienced the stereo performance nuances I get with "lesser" integrateds.
Maybe newer stuff is better for the 2ch options using AVRs/processors? You'd know better than I.
I've never had a profound listening experience for music with an AVR, though.
I'm going to tell you flat out, todays AVR, pick a level are all incredibly clear detailed low noise floor and have solid amps inside. They are not like what we use to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps.
I idea a AVR can't sound good is old school thinking. Believe it or not todays AVR's sound as good if not better in many cases than separates. Separates are not superior unless you need the extra power. Which is another topic we could talk about. Headroom isn't necessary IF you never need it or use it.
You can only be as dynamic as the signal calls for and play as loud as your room and or you can handle. I think most people would be shocked how much actual power you use when you typically listen. And if you are listening at higher volumes , good luck with your hearing down the road.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I hear ya, man, and I'm sure things have greatly improved over the past 10 to 15 years. I think the general idea is that 2ch pieces, integrateds by Musical Fidelity and a single Harman Kardon piece in my personal experience, are purpose built for refined 2ch presentation. And that's where the differences lie.
I've read the stories of the non-critical listeners being able to pick up on system changes, sometimes simply in passing by the listening space. For most casual listeners and out of the box connections, I believe you when you say there's not much difference across your Integra. I'd love to hear it for myself, though, because I'm loosely keeping an eye out for my next combo use piece for if/when my Halo C2 dies.
That's what's tough about this, though, not being in that room with access to the components to check stuff out with you.
I disabled signatures. -
I for one certainly believe the higher end AVR's can perform satisfactory to most ears. Most ears that is, that haven't heard what a good dac and some tubes can do for your streaming devices.
For comparison sake though, maybe an AVR isn't the best option to bring out the best of those products. Certainly are better streamers out there with better sound to them but we are comparing apples and apples here and for the best intended purposes of these 2 products most will use them for. In that context, the differences will be slight if at all. It comes down to software and user friendly things that will make the difference for people to choose one over the other.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I'm going to tell you flat out, todays AVR, pick a level are all incredibly clear detailed low noise floor and have solid amps inside. They are not like what we use to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps.
This is simply not true.
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I for one certainly believe the higher end AVR's can perform satisfactory to most ears. Most ears that is, that haven't heard what a good dac and some tubes can do for your streaming devices.
For comparison sake though, maybe an AVR isn't the best option to bring out the best of those products. Certainly are better streamers out there with better sound to them but we are comparing apples and apples here and for the best intended purposes of these 2 products most will use them for. In that context, the differences will be slight if at all. It comes down to software and user friendly things that will make the difference for people to choose one over the other.
Tony! Good to see you, man.
"To most ears."
That used to be my only measure, but then I experienced refined imaging and got spoiled. So it was no longer just about the sound quality for me, but also how that rich, smooth sound presented. Did the players appear before me in a clump, or in their respective playing locations? Was a fade-in just a fade-in, or did it give the sensation of sound approaching me from a distance. Stuff like that. I don't chase it too far, but it's cool when it happens. I don't recall it with my favorite previous AVR, the B&K AVR507, but I won't discount it being possible with newer AVRs unless I were able to demo a few top end ones to hwafkr myself.
I do agree that "most ears" means how it sounds to most people - sound only.
I disabled signatures. -
Hey this is a family forum, so we'll have no, "hwafkr myself" going on.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
That's one heck of an auto correct, eh? Geeez....
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I guess I should sell my separates and move up to an AVR, ditch Qobuz and Tidal for Spotify.
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Hey this is a family forum, so we'll have no, "hwafkr myself" going on.
Lol, I had to reread what I wrote. Supposed to have a smart keyboard, but it sucks a good bit of the time.
"hwafkr" was supposed to be "hear for". The letters are close.
H was good
E went to W
A good
R didn't register
Space didn't register
F good
O went to K
R good
Stupid phone. Wasn't even autocorrect. Just what got typed!I disabled signatures. -
Hey this is a family forum, so we'll have no, "hwafkr myself" going on.
Lol, I had to reread what I wrote. Supposed to have a smart keyboard, but it sucks a good bit of the time.
"hwafkr" was supposed to be "hear for". The letters are close.
H was good
E went to W
A good
R didn't register
Space didn't register
F good
O went to K
R good
Stupid phone. Wasn't even autocorrect. Just what got typed!
Cogl. Twinks fogm cleainf thsytn up far osh. We rubyc app4ebiate ip. -
Look what autocorrect did with a text to the wife...
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
I hear ya, man, and I'm sure things have greatly improved over the past 10 to 15 years. I think the general idea is that 2ch pieces, integrateds by Musical Fidelity and a single Harman Kardon piece in my personal experience, are purpose built for refined 2ch presentation. And that's where the differences lie.
I've read the stories of the non-critical listeners being able to pick up on system changes, sometimes simply in passing by the listening space. For most casual listeners and out of the box connections, I believe you when you say there's not much difference across your Integra. I'd love to hear it for myself, though, because I'm loosely keeping an eye out for my next combo use piece for if/when my Halo C2 dies.
That's what's tough about this, though, not being in that room with access to the components to check stuff out with you.
If you're ever in my area , you're more than welcome to come over for a listen, a steak, beer or what have you.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I'm going to tell you flat out, todays AVR, pick a level are all incredibly clear detailed low noise floor and have solid amps inside. They are not like what we use to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps.
This is simply not true.
If what I said isn't true , show me the measurement that prove me wrong. Hell just go to Audioholics which is a online source of reference , he does YouTube videos and such, he does the measurements and most of todays AVR output cleaner with lower noise floor than most stand alone preamps.
Discredit that all you want, if your not the one testing than your opinions are not valid.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I guess I should sell my separates and move up to an AVR, ditch Qobuz and Tidal for Spotify.
No one is telling you to do anything my friend. This is a hobby and we all are welcome to our own opinions. I take joy in my AVR , my Focal Speakers , both of my streamers using the internal DAC's in my AVR which are supposed to be the best in our industry right now. You can look them up to see if you agree or not with that statement.
I only used Spotify as it was a service I have that I can fairly compare to sources playing the same exact service , same exact song at the same exact volume on the same exact system set up the same exact way.
If I haveTidal or Qbuz , I would test them against each other as well. It's all good man.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Oh, jeez Dan. We don't measure with our ears. We listen.
Please re-read H9's signature.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I'm going to tell you flat out, todays AVR, pick a level are all incredibly clear detailed low noise floor and have solid amps inside. They are not like what we use to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps.
This is simply not true.
If what I said isn't true , show me the measurement that prove me wrong. Hell just go to Audioholics which is a online source of reference , he does YouTube videos and such, he does the measurements and most of todays AVR output cleaner with lower noise floor than most stand alone preamps.
Discredit that all you want, if your not the one testing than your opinions are not valid.
The burden isn't on me to prove you wrong. If anything, you should be providing the proof which backs up the things you claimed as facts.
Now if you would've simply said "In my experience, todays AVRs - pick a level - are all incredibly clear, detailed, with a low noise floor and solid amplification that meets my needs. They are not like what I used to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps, in my opinion." I wouldn't have taken any exception.
The problem is you are making these outrageous claims as if they are stone cold facts, and basically spouting misinformation about the current state of AVRs, as if they are state of the art and meet or exceed the performance of comparatively priced separates. And no, it doesn't matter that it costs $3,200 that just means that Onkyo has a lot of expenses related to distribution network, warranty claims, marketing, R&D, etc. That unit probably costs them $320 or less to manufacture.
Please try to quantify your statements with "in my experience" or "in my opinion", otherwise it just seems like you are making ridiculous claims that are fundamentally untrue. -
I also get that you're evaluating for a market, too, Dan. And this is a combo use system. I have a combo use system, and while it does well, I don't expect it to be as revealing as my 2ch stuff.
In 2ch, I'm also not playing at the levels of some, so my experiences aren't as refined in the 2ch realm, but it's the right fit for me at this stage.
I fully expect those devices to sound extremely close with the Integra, and that's not a knock on the Integra at all. It's also out of the box on all pieces, as I understand, which is how most people are going to be listening unless they're serious enthusiasts and want to tweak. You're not talking DACs, power supplies, filtering, nor high resolution source audio. It's not awful. I've experienced some beautiful imaging with Spotify on some systems, but not all.
Those two pieces also aren't high-end streamers/dacs. None of this is a bad thing. I don't high end streamers and DACs, either. I'd fully expect someone to have to spend a lot more money making the Bluesound outperform the Sonos, and that that point, I'd also want to see how the Sonos could compare, if it's even possible to upgrade all aspects of the Sonos delivery to the same level you could with the Bluesound NODE.
I view your testing as legitimate, real world comparison for most "upper-end lifestyle audio systems" owners. Just not for 2ch enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that.
There's tons of stuff I've listened to that should have offered profound improvements going by the recommendations of others. Very little actually delivered.
The biggest lie? A warm amp would tame RTi10s. Do you know how much you MFs cost me with that one? lol The proper path at that time would have been to have dumped those RTi10s and found a more pleasing speaker instead of chasing it with amps, preamps and cables. Synergy is real, absolutely - I've experienced it which is why I have 4 systems that have been relatively static for 4 years now - but a lot of those other components are tuning and refinement pieces. The speaker is the broadest stroke.
You're not crazy Dan. At least, not about these two devices.I disabled signatures. -
I'm going to tell you flat out, todays AVR, pick a level are all incredibly clear detailed low noise floor and have solid amps inside. They are not like what we use to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps.
This is simply not true.
If what I said isn't true , show me the measurement that prove me wrong. Hell just go to Audioholics which is a online source of reference , he does YouTube videos and such, he does the measurements and most of todays AVR output cleaner with lower noise floor than most stand alone preamps.
Discredit that all you want, if your not the one testing than your opinions are not valid.
The burden isn't on me to prove you wrong. If anything, you should be providing the proof which backs up the things you claimed as facts.
Now if you would've simply said "In my experience, todays AVRs - pick a level - are all incredibly clear, detailed, with a low noise floor and solid amplification that meets my needs. They are not like what I used to listen to decades ago. They are shielded properly and they make better preamps than most stand alone preamps, in my opinion." I wouldn't have taken any exception.
The problem is you are making these outrageous claims as if they are stone cold facts, and basically spouting misinformation about the current state of AVRs, as if they are state of the art and meet or exceed the performance of comparatively priced separates. And no, it doesn't matter that it costs $3,200 that just means that Onkyo has a lot of expenses related to distribution network, warranty claims, marketing, R&D, etc. That unit probably costs them $320 or less to manufacture.
Please try to quantify your statements with "in my experience" or "in my opinion", otherwise it just seems like you are making ridiculous claims that are fundamentally untrue.
Think what you want, it's all good. Crap on my brand new Integra, still all good, I like it a lot and that is all that matters.
You think todays AVR's can't compete with Separates , again your welcome to your opinion , but until you sit in front of these things and do a listening test yourself, your words have no credit to me. Sorry man, not trying to bag on you but I've been around the block many times with owning separates and AVR's and just because they are separate doesn't mean they are better.
Compare any new Denon, Marantz or Integra product to separate components on the same speakers , same room, same room treatments same source and tell me every time the separates are better. In my findings , they are not or I would own them. I can buy anything I want and I choose to go with what sounds great, performs great and meets all my needs. In ways my friend I do however like the idea of separates better , I always have as I can just change out my preamp and keep using my amps. I have a basement full of amps and preamps and I have compared them to many AVR's I've owned and honestly I was pretty shocked on how well the AVR's do.
Also my friend, this in no way is designed to sway anyone to buy anything. This is a hobby and not serious. I post what I post , I speak of my personal findings and if you don't agree, that's totally ok man.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I also get that you're evaluating for a market, too, Dan. And this is a combo use system. I have a combo use system, and while it does well, I don't expect it to be as revealing as my 2ch stuff.
In 2ch, I'm also not playing at the levels of some, so my experiences aren't as refined in the 2ch realm, but it's the right fit for me at this stage.
I fully expect those devices to sound extremely close with the Integra, and that's not a knock on the Integra at all. It's also out of the box on all pieces, as I understand, which is how most people are going to be listening unless they're serious enthusiasts and want to tweak. You're not talking DACs, power supplies, filtering, nor high resolution source audio. It's not awful. I've experienced some beautiful imaging with Spotify on some systems, but not all.
Those two pieces also aren't high-end streamers/dacs. None of this is a bad thing. I don't high end streamers and DACs, either. I'd fully expect someone to have to spend a lot more money making the Bluesound outperform the Sonos, and that that point, I'd also want to see how the Sonos could compare, if it's even possible to upgrade all aspects of the Sonos delivery to the same level you could with the Bluesound NODE.
I view your testing as legitimate, real world comparison for most "upper-end lifestyle audio systems" owners. Just not for 2ch enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that.
There's tons of stuff I've listened to that should have offered profound improvements going by the recommendations of others. Very little actually delivered.
The biggest lie? A warm amp would tame RTi10s. Do you know how much you MFs cost me with that one? lol The proper path at that time would have been to have dumped those RTi10s and found a more pleasing speaker instead of chasing it with amps, preamps and cables. Synergy is real, absolutely - I've experienced it which is why I have 4 systems that have been relatively static for 4 years now - but a lot of those other components are tuning and refinement pieces. The speaker is the broadest stroke.
You're not crazy Dan. At least, not about these two devices.
Well maybe a little crazy, think about it, I just got done a long day , just smoked some Steaks on the Smoker, didn't even get a shower yet and I'm looking over forums and talking about streaming music streamers. Yeah crazy might fit the bill LOLDan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I've seen reports that long covid can affect one's hearing.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If you're ever in my area , you're more than welcome to come over for a listen, a steak, beer or what have you.
Wait. You've got steak and beer? I'm in!Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus -
I've seen reports that long covid can affect one's hearing.
That very well could be true.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I've seen reports that long covid can affect one's hearing.
*Grabs self rudely* I got your long covid right . . . nevermind.
