Good Grief...what have I done! Man oh man I've opened a can of worms with this one.
pearsall001
Posts: 5,091
I'm ditching my preamp & running my DAC straight into my amp. I never gave it much thought before but now with my newly acquired L.K.S. DAC from fellow Polkie PSOVLSK (aka Paul) I had that option to give it a try.
Now I've had my tube pre for about a year & really liked it, rolled numerous 6SN7 tubes (JJ's, TUNG-SOL, PSVANE) & they all added a different flavor & out of the bunch I liked the PSVANE. I was going to try others but I just enjoyed it & stayed with what I had.
Very musical, just enough bloom without sounding too "Tubey" I was quite content. Now enter the L.K.S. DAC...a wonderful sounding DAC that exceeded my expectations. At first I didn't even realize that I could give it a whirl straight into my amp & forego the preamp.
Since I'm 100% digital & I don't have any other sources (CD, SACD, vinyl) besides my modded NODE 2i streaming Qobuz & Spotify I figured why not try it. If I had multiple sources then I'd definitely need a pre for source selection & volumn control. And since I run my dual REL subs via hi-level connection I don't need a pre-out for them either.
I was totally expecting to be rather disappointed but boy oh boy was I ever wrong. The music now sounds so much more natural, laid back & just more enjoyable to my ears. Maybe I'm just not as much of a tube guy as I thought. Not that I don't enjoy the tube sound this just sounds way better & more engaging to my ears. I'm assuming that as good as the DAC sounds they also have a killer analog stage in there too that just makes the music blossom. For now I'll still keep the pre & alternate every now & then just to switch things up a bit.
Now I've had my tube pre for about a year & really liked it, rolled numerous 6SN7 tubes (JJ's, TUNG-SOL, PSVANE) & they all added a different flavor & out of the bunch I liked the PSVANE. I was going to try others but I just enjoyed it & stayed with what I had.
Very musical, just enough bloom without sounding too "Tubey" I was quite content. Now enter the L.K.S. DAC...a wonderful sounding DAC that exceeded my expectations. At first I didn't even realize that I could give it a whirl straight into my amp & forego the preamp.
Since I'm 100% digital & I don't have any other sources (CD, SACD, vinyl) besides my modded NODE 2i streaming Qobuz & Spotify I figured why not try it. If I had multiple sources then I'd definitely need a pre for source selection & volumn control. And since I run my dual REL subs via hi-level connection I don't need a pre-out for them either.
I was totally expecting to be rather disappointed but boy oh boy was I ever wrong. The music now sounds so much more natural, laid back & just more enjoyable to my ears. Maybe I'm just not as much of a tube guy as I thought. Not that I don't enjoy the tube sound this just sounds way better & more engaging to my ears. I'm assuming that as good as the DAC sounds they also have a killer analog stage in there too that just makes the music blossom. For now I'll still keep the pre & alternate every now & then just to switch things up a bit.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
Comments
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been pre free since... 2021??? no regrets!!!! Better than having a preamp any day! Has nothing to do with the tubes, just more to do with removing a completely unnecessary component in the chain- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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been pre free since... 2021??? no regrets!!!! Better than having a preamp any day! Has nothing to do with the tubes, just more to do with removing a completely unnecessary component in the chain
I can attest to that from what I'm hearing. Being 100% digital there is no need for a source selecter & volume control piece. The less the better."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I thought about doing that as well and freeing up some real estate in the rack. I had my hopes up and gave it a shot. The results were less than impressive so the pre went right back in. Might've been an impedance mismatch as the soundstage really went to hell.
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What is your streamer- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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pearsall001 wrote: »been pre free since... 2021??? no regrets!!!! Better than having a preamp any day! Has nothing to do with the tubes, just more to do with removing a completely unnecessary component in the chain
I can attest to that from what I'm hearing. Being 100% digital there is no need for a source selecter & volume control piece. The less the better.
Volume control???? Please don't tell me you're using the volume control output from the BlueNode or Quobuz app? Those things are horrible and should always be set to "fixed" because of that.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I am glad you are digging the LKS. That unit for the $ even new is no joke. Marvin and I both kept saying it punches way above its price point. I still want to hear their newer one.
@marvda1 have you ever got your ears on their newer one?Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's. -
Not yet, I have been enjoying this Sonnet Digital Morpheus rtr dac.Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
Puritan PSM156 -
pearsall001 wrote: »been pre free since... 2021??? no regrets!!!! Better than having a preamp any day! Has nothing to do with the tubes, just more to do with removing a completely unnecessary component in the chain
I can attest to that from what I'm hearing. Being 100% digital there is no need for a source selecter & volume control piece. The less the better.
Volume control???? Please don't tell me you're using the volume control output from the BlueNode or Quobuz app? Those things are horrible and should always be set to "fixed" because of that.
H9
None of the above. The DAC comes with a full feature remote. Easy peasy.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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What is your streamer
In my case it's a Cambridge Audio 851n Azur going into Mcintosh mc1201's. -
pearsall001 wrote: »pearsall001 wrote: »been pre free since... 2021??? no regrets!!!! Better than having a preamp any day! Has nothing to do with the tubes, just more to do with removing a completely unnecessary component in the chain
I can attest to that from what I'm hearing. Being 100% digital there is no need for a source selecter & volume control piece. The less the better.
Volume control???? Please don't tell me you're using the volume control output from the BlueNode or Quobuz app? Those things are horrible and should always be set to "fixed" because of that.
H9
None of the above. The DAC comes with a full feature remote. Easy peasy.
Still, an in expensive I/C to control volume? I'll take an analog stepped or expensive discrete controlled digital volume control.
Rock on with whatever works for you"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I have put digital volume controls up against some nice preamps and the digital volume hasn't lost yet.
Musical fidelity kw preamp
Cary slp9
To name a few- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
I have been reading some reviews recently of preamplifiers. Many of these reviewer‘s were using their DAC’s directly to the amplifiers as well, with no preamp in the system. Some of them ended up buying the preamplifier they were reviewing because it improved the overall quality of the sound in their systems. The general consensus among these reviews was that the preamplifier did a better job of accurately, presenting the sound stage, with better placement of instruments, better control of frequencies across the audio spectrum, and a host of other improvements.
The reviewers were not using entry-level digital gear in their review either. That said, the amplifiers I have been looking at all have a retail price about 10 grand. I would expect there to be some improvement when purchasing a component at that price point or higher.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I have put digital volume controls up against some nice preamps and the digital volume hasn't lost yet.
Musical fidelity kw preamp
Cary slp9
To name a few
The implementation of digital volume control (or fixed output with an IC controlling volume) can vary greatly. I, for one, am not getting rid of my pre-amp any time soon. It is needed with my setup, since I still have a phono preamp and a tuner that I use in addition to my DAC/Streaming pathway. For about a year, prior to picking up my STP-SE, I did use the output from my DAC, which has a volume control knob, and I found it lacking dynamics and level matching. I'll admit, my DAC is not high end, but I think still think a preamp with good input/output buffering and a resistive ladder volume control is going to win out over most digital volume controls, whether it be a software or IC method.
Trey, both the examples you mentioned (kW pre and Cary) both use old school potentiometers for volume control, so despite them being well respected, they are not the ultimate when it comes to preamp/volume control.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
Now I have tried a passive preamp in between with a super nice ladder resistor volume and that lasted all of five days.
I may need a preamp in the future but I would easily put the lumin leedh volume control against any preamp on the market without second guessing it.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
A preamp section with a volume control is still involved, it's just not in a separate box. I can understand why an all digital system might work better this way though. Less stuff involved. Depends on how well designed and isolated the preamp section is in the streamer or DAC compared to the standalone preamp.
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Just sayin'...
The IC used between any components can also have a "make or break" affect as well. Even the PC's in certain systems can do the same thing.
Every system and system setup varies. Lots of variables here to consider.
In my case, I have to have a pre. Too many sources. I'm perfectly happy with what I am hearing.
That said, I am happy for you Phil. Little discoveries like this to enhance your system (especially for the cost you laid out for this one) are awesome. Enjoy.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I’ve been preamp free for years .
Couple of Yamaha wxc-50’s straight into the amps in secondary systems…
And an 851n straight into the amp in my main rig…. Sounds great … i read a technical review years ago about how good the 851’s volume control is..
May have said it was actually analog , cant remember…
851 has now been replaced with a DMP-A8 as of last week ….. straight into the amp … sounds fantastic…
Bk
PS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 48” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sony 65” TV - PATIO -
I have an old PS Audio 4.6 preamp I got new in 1989-90 or so …. Still have it.
Used it for years in my system- straight wire mode … basically a passive pre in that mode with a fantastic volume control…. It could use the external power supply by turning the selector to “on”.
The only time I ever used the power supply was when spinning records - there just wasn’t any need to as the cd player and tape deck put out ample voltage.
BkNow I have tried a passive preamp in between with a super nice ladder resistor volume and that lasted all of five days.
I may need a preamp in the future but I would easily put the lumin leedh volume control against any preamp on the market without second guessing it.
PS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 48” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sony 65” TV - PATIO -
Just sayin'...
The IC used between any components can also have a "make or break" affect as well. Even the PC's in certain systems can do the same thing.
Every system and system setup varies. Lots of variables here to consider.
In my case, I have to have a pre. Too many sources. I'm perfectly happy with what I am hearing.
That said, I am happy for you Phil. Little discoveries like this to enhance your system (especially for the cost you laid out for this one) are awesome. Enjoy.
Tom
I'll tell you what it really surprised me & it was subtle either.
For now I'm going to park any notions of picking up another pre. Being 100% digital I can avoid that expense for now anyway. I really don't think I'll be adding any other source to warrant picking up another pre. And this puppies volume control is fantastic...no complaints here.
One thing I've learned over the many years in this hobby is that spending more does not always equate to getting more. It never ends though. Lol!
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Phil, two things: 1) Time to update your signature and, 2) You didn't mention it here, like you're hoping we'd forgotten about it, but ... you still owe us a REL sub review!
My new DAC has a volume control, also, which on the surface I was thinking "WTF good is that for?!" But, although I have an integrated amp and need its phono stage, the DAC volume control has come in quite handy to match volumes between sources. It's nice to have options and be able to experiment, as you have found.
Enjoy!
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
Amazing how we all vary in what we hear. Several years ago I tried using my now outdated Mcintosh d100 dac as a preamp. My intention was to leave vinyl behind and simplify things. That experiment didn't go as planned. I have a 2 piece preamp and I was really hoping it would as the dual pre pieces are major space hogs. The d100 dac takes up a half space so that would've freed up a lot of room and eliminated several connections. The result was the preamp stayed put and the Mac dac has been doing duties as a dust collector.
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Left and right tracking and digital hash and other artifacts are some of the negative things about an inexpensive I/C based volume control.
BAT and PASS Labs have had a few articles about how important a well designed and implemented volume control is.
We all hear differently, all have different expectations and all are willing to compromise more than others. If it floats your boat go with it. But it would never work for me, as I have heard the other side and there's no going back. Just like I/C based op-amps were fine and perfectly acceptable until, after hearing discrete op-amps, there is no going back. The difference is so apparent........there is just no going back.
I have never had good luck using the "built in" volume control on anything as a pre-amp has always been better.
All that said, I haven't heard either of the systems mentioned (Phil's or Trey's) so I am speaking in generalizations. And I have no doubt the better the gear the better some of the implementation is.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Going straight from the DAC into the amp also depends on the input sensitivity of the amp and the sensitivity of the speakers being used.
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So my speakers are 95db 1w1m and I usually run the volume 80 out of 100 on the digital scale... No gain required beyond unity- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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So my speakers are 95db 1w1m and I usually run the volume 80 out of 100 on the digital scale... No gain required beyond unity
My amp needs 2.5 volts for full power and one of pair of speakers I own is 80db sensitivity and the other pair is 92db, so I use a preamp. -
I do the same Phil, dac to amp. Don't get me wrong, while the sound is OK, I'd still prefer a nice tubed pre amp in the mix. Simply because I don't get to use the system much and it's now just used as background music, cost wise, makes no sense to keep adding more seperates.
However, you might convince me with that Lampizator tubed dac that I would trim nose hairs from Russ to get one of those bad boys. I just dig the tube sound, and the adjustments that can be made rolling tubes.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Phil, two things: 1) Time to update your signature and, 2) You didn't mention it here, like you're hoping we'd forgotten about it, but ... you still owe us a REL sub review!
My new DAC has a volume control, also, which on the surface I was thinking "WTF good is that for?!" But, although I have an integrated amp and need its phono stage, the DAC volume control has come in quite handy to match volumes between sources. It's nice to have options and be able to experiment, as you have found.
Enjoy!
I know I'm slacking. Lol! But don't worry I didn't forget. It's just so crazy this time of year. Patience grasshopper 🦗🦗🦗 patience."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
It's about impedance output from the source to the amp and the attenuator ie volume control
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Now I have tried a passive preamp in between with a super nice ladder resistor volume and that lasted all of five days.
I may need a preamp in the future but I would easily put the lumin leedh volume control against any preamp on the market without second guessing it.
Getting closer, but passive pres sound rather lifeless, imo.
Would be interested in your impressions comparing digital direct vs. a pre with discrete resistors and optical encoder, like STP-SE, other others akin, Pass XP12, Classe Delta Pre, etc.
I should try digital direct too. Good discussion.
CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables.
