Good Grief...what have I done! Man oh man I've opened a can of worms with this one.

VR3

I think it also depends on where you are inserting tubes.

Every 2 channel system needs tubes. If your preamp is tube based, then you should only replace it if the dac or amp is tube.

My dac is very tube and sounds awesome, R2r tube dacs truly sound amazing.

billbillw

VR3 wrote: »

I think it also depends on where you are inserting tubes.

Every 2 channel system needs tubes. If your preamp is tube based, then you should only replace it if the dac or amp is tube.

My dac is very tube and sounds awesome, R2r tube dacs truly sound amazing.

I tried various tube configurations for 10 or so years. Yes, they seem to do great things at making bad recordings sound better and add some magic to the playback, but I got tired of trying to find good tubes that lasted and didn't cost a fortune. I also couldn't get the noise floor as low I as I like. Eventually, I decided on going solid state all the way. There are now some recordings that I can't listen to because of the harsh vocals, or otherwise, but the really good recordings are so much clearer, better imaged, and I'm not chasing tubes that are becoming more and more unobtanium. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for using tubes, but for my preferences, the all solid state wins out.

I can leave my 2-channel system on for days and not feel guilty about putting hours out the tubes. Heck, my Pearl phono stage has been powered on 24/7 for years and I don't even think about it.

Emlyn

I also departed from tubes a couple years ago. I think the tube gear I had was really primarily making up for deficiences in 16 bit digital playback by masking the problems with pleasant sounding distortion. Sources can be so much better now than there were 20 years ago. All solid state for me now too.

motorstereo

No glowing tubes to found in my rigs either. But I do keep a tube integrated around just to look at. It's been sitting on top of my craftsman rollaround toolbox collecting dust now for a couple years.

Clipdat

VR3 wrote: »

Every 2 channel system needs tubes.

Politely disagree.

VR3

This hobby is vastly different for everyone. I've yet to hear a non tube system provide what I am looking for in playback, doesn't mean it doesn't exist... I just haven't heard it yet.

msg

tonyb wrote: »

I do the same Phil, dac to amp. Don't get me wrong, while the sound is OK, I'd still prefer a nice tubed pre amp in the mix. Simply because I don't get to use the system much and it's now just used as background music, cost wise, makes no sense to keep adding more seperates.

However, you might convince me with that Lampizator tubed dac that I would trim nose hairs from Russ to get one of those bad boys. I just dig the tube sound, and the adjustments that can be made rolling tubes.

But would you braid them - that is the question.

invalid

I have a tube preamp and tube DAC that I leave on 24/7 unless I go away for more than a day. The tubes seem to last for quite a few years.

jbreezy5

VR3 wrote: »

This hobby is vastly different for everyone. I've yet to hear a non tube system provide what I am looking for in playback, doesn't mean it doesn't exist... I just haven't heard it yet.

Instrumental texture, breath, and a kind of humanity (flesh on bones, or realism), and enhanced 3D soundstaging and imaging is what tubes bring to my ears.

There are bad implementations of tubes, but good tube designs are not noisy.

The closest to tube sound I’ve heard in an all solid-state system is R2R dacs.

pitdogg2

There are bad implementations of tubes, but good tube designs are not noisy.

ABSOLUTELY !!

pearsall001

My take is that tubes do add pleasing distortion that adds warmth & soul to the music but at what expense.
My listening experience with running the LKS DAC straight into the amp has me questioning the tube pre. The pre isn't going anywhere & will be used on & off depending on my mood.
The DAC / amp hook up just sounds more natural & relaxing to me. No right or wrong answer... just listening preference.
And as far as the DAC's remote volume control goes...no complaints here. Sounds awesome.

heiney9

I'm not going to get into a big debate about tubes. But if you think they are "masking" issues then you haven't got the right combo of gear, etc. I get the down side of tubes....lots of chasing, expensive and you can only achieve a minimal noise floor.

I personally haven't had any issues with longevity of any old stock tubes. I was going to walk away from tubes for some of the same reasons, but then I came back to my senses....lol.

Tubes should never be used to cover up deficiencies or be thought of as a band aid. If that's how they are used and what they sound like you've got the wrong piece of gear. Higher end SS designs can and do give many of the attributes of tubes. Just like anything else, you have to chase to find. But I understand if you don't want to do the tube life anymore, just don't make the excuses that tubes somehow are inferior or are only for sprucing up poor recordings or are a patch for a poor performing piece of gear in the chain.

H9

heiney9

I'll also add if you came to listen to my rig and didn't see the glow, you would never know tubes were in the mix.

heiney9

Also ftr, I'm speaking about signal tubes, not power tubes.

heiney9

pearsall001 wrote: »

My take is that tubes do add pleasing distortion that adds warmth & soul to the music but at what expense.
My listening experience with running the LKS DAC straight into the amp has me questioning the tube pre. The pre isn't going anywhere & will be used on & off depending on my mood.
The DAC / amp hook up just sounds more natural & relaxing to me. No right or wrong answer... just listening preference.
And as far as the DAC's remote volume control goes...no complaints here. Sounds awesome.

Wrong take. They do have a different harmonic structure, but they aren't adding anything. No expense. There are certain orders of harmonics that are very pleasing to the human ear and are naturally occuring in nature and live music. Tubes can have more of those pleasing orders of harmonics. Really has nothing to do with distortion. SS transistors have different orders of harmonics and the same amount of distortion.

bcwsrt

And, besides, any tube hate belongs here: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/170744/feel-the-hate-thread/p1 😉😝

I don't know that there's even "lots of chasing" with tubes, unless that's just part of what you enjoy about it. If you don't like the way the gear sounds stock, that should be reason enough to move along. Hopefully, you don't buy a tube piece of gear thinking, "Man, if I can just find the right combo, this thing'll sound awesome!"

I've greatly benefitted from Ivan's knowledge of tubes and I'm enjoying what I've rolled into my Rogue Audio integrated tube amp based on his recommendations, but at the same time I wouldn't kick it to the curb if I had to go back to the stock JJs, for whatever reason.

heiney9

Stock JJ's suck compared to what's available

bcwsrt

I don't disagree. I think my point is just that different tubes don't make it what it's not. The one I auditioned had RCA clear tops in it when I got it. I preferred the stock JJs when I rolled them back in.

Are there better than both the RCAs and the JJs, absolutely, and I think I have found them, at least for the time-being, but I would still rather have tubes, in general, than not, again, at least for the time-being.

VR3

The audio world has split off into different groups...

delta sigma dacs, digital amps, switching power supplies, solid state everything... all of that to me sounds pretty awful by itself and all together

I will gladly take a super high quality tube dac, super nice old school Class A-AB amplifier, linear power supplies, big speakers any day of the week!

heiney9

bcwsrt wrote: »

I don't disagree. I think my point is just that different tubes don't make it what it's not. The one I auditioned had RCA clear tops in it when I got it. I preferred the stock JJs when I rolled them back in.

Are there better than both the RCAs and the JJs, absolutely, and I think I have found them, at least for the time-being, but I would still rather have tubes, in general, than not, again, at least for the time-being.

You could say the same about cables too or capacitors and resistors used in a crossover. Think of tubes like tires for a performance car. Stock tires are usually ok, they do the job, meet spec. But there are other options out there that can transform the car and make it perform to it's highest degree and take advantage of the engineering built into the car where the stock tires don't.

That's my tube analogy....lol. I don't understand how someone can get into tubes w/o chasing down the best sounding tubes or to just have a variety when they want to mix things up a bit. But that's just me, we're all a little different.

H9

GlennDog

I never imagined that I'd go down the road where I've got 28 tubes all playing at once, but I do

News flash: it does not sound like thick syrupy molasses and smack'n yer lips just to clear your palate

Mono blocks have 7 each, pre amp has 9 and the DAC . . . 5

I just introduced a vintage KenRad 5U4G rectifier into the dac and wowza . . . improved clarity and body. All the while plowing thru those 27 others

all tubes are strong testing NOS prior to 1970, except for the KT-120 power tubes. Strong NOS tubes are key, imho

did somebody here say . . . Tubes Add Soul? . . . They do

heiney9

Rectifiers can make or break the sound. Big influence. The older the better it seems.

They do add soul.

H9

I
I
I
V

VR3

The price for the old 5u4g stuff costs as much as the gear, craziness! That was one of the reasons I parted with my ank dac

jbreezy5

heiney9 wrote: »

Also ftr, I'm speaking about signal tubes, not power tubes.

Same thoughts. I have very much fallen out of love with my Primaluna Prologue Five amp. It's just not my sound; it completely screws up the frequency response.

Below is my preferred tube amp compared to anything I’ve tried so far, as many on here already know, this uses 6SL7s:



Otherwise, to me, there’s nothing quite like a quality tube preamp to get that hard to describe musical naturalness during playback, while keeping distortion and noise levels low.

I still like a lot of solid-state gear. Not trying to diss it at all. It’s a fortunate time to be an audiophile.

invalid

VR3 wrote: »

The price for the old 5u4g stuff costs as much as the gear, craziness! That was one of the reasons I parted with my ank dac

I'm glad I don't have to buy those types of rectifier tubes any longer, I run a couple 2.5 volt half wave rectifier tubes with much better results for about $20 each.

treitz3

Well, Phil opened up two cans of worms it seems. One with his system and one with a tube debate.

I have enjoyed tubes most of my life, whether it be on my system or others. The vast majority of the systems I have heard all have tubes in the mix. All of my preferred systems that I have heard over the decades have had tubes in the mix. These are just my observations.

Never underestimate the power of a rectifier.

When my Dodd MLP tubed pre went out, I wasn't in the financial position at the time to get another nice pre, so I bought a Dayens pre. Then a Cary pre. Both were SS. The rest of my system at the time was SS. I could easily tell that it was an all SS system. That entire stint, I didn't really listen to music at all. I would turn the system on, listen to it and it would be shut down in short order. Sometimes after a song, sometimes after 5.

Trey even came over and discovered that a speaker was wired out of phase (whoops). That's how much I didn't care about the system or the sound. Even with it in phase, same thing. I would barely listen to it. There was just something about the sound I did not like at all.

When I got serious again and my finances improved enough to pull the trigger on a real pre to replace the Dodd, the Canary tubed pre was purchased. Ah, what wonderful sound again. That started me on a whirlwind tour of new gear, new speakers, network and streaming upgrades and a plethora of other changes to get me to where I am at today. Just that one piece of gear (and NOS tubes) did that.

Long story short -

No tubes = Barley listened, didn't care for the sound.

Tubes = Loved the sound and started my audio journey back up form a lull.

Everyone is on a different path along their audio journey. Everyone prefers one thing or another. There is no right or wrong.

pearsall001 wrote:

My take is that tubes do add pleasing distortion that adds warmth & soul to the music but at what expense.

For many folks on this forum and others, it is an expense worthy of having. Everything in this hobby is a compromise/tradeoff. See or refer to this thread - https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/198325/how-many-tubes-do-you-have-in-your-rig/p1

VR3 wrote:

The price for the old 5u4g stuff costs as much as the gear, craziness! That was one of the reasons I parted with my ank dac

No one ever said this hobby was cheap. Thanks for the DAC, BTW. It sounds wonderful and has outstanding synergy within my rig. Much, much better than the LampizatOr. (Older model Lampi) Also, you don't necessarily need the "top shelf" NOS tubes. I have had some of the "preferred" tubes before in various gear and while others may "prefer" them? I do not. At least not in my rig. Some of them had very little attributes with way to many deficiencies. So, one must compromise.

In Phil's case? His compromise was to go direct from DAC to AMP and no tubes. That's his compromise and if he's down with it and enjoying what he is hearing? Perfect. His system is there to please no one but him and from the sounds of it? He's rather smitten on what he is hearing. Rock on brother.

Tom

invalid

I don't understand how the noise floor can be so high with some tube gear, if a tube phono preamp can be made to have a low noise floor then a preamp or DAC should be very silent.

pearsall001

treitz3 wrote: »

Well, Phil opened up two cans of worms it seems. One with his system and one with a tube debate.

I have enjoyed tubes most of my life, whether it be on my system or others. The vast majority of the systems I have heard all have tubes in the mix. All of my preferred systems that I have heard over the decades have had tubes in the mix. These are just my observations.

Never underestimate the power of a rectifier.

When my Dodd MLP tubed pre went out, I wasn't in the financial position at the time to get another nice pre, so I bought a Dayens pre. Then a Cary pre. Both were SS. The rest of my system at the time was SS. I could easily tell that it was an all SS system. That entire stint, I didn't really listen to music at all. I would turn the system on, listen to it and it would be shut down in short order. Sometimes after a song, sometimes after 5.

Trey even came over and discovered that a speaker was wired out of phase (whoops). That's how much I didn't care about the system or the sound. Even with it in phase, same thing. I would barely listen to it. There was just something about the sound I did not like at all.

When I got serious again and my finances improved enough to pull the trigger on a real pre to replace the Dodd, the Canary tubed pre was purchased. Ah, what wonderful sound again. That started me on a whirlwind tour of new gear, new speakers, network and streaming upgrades and a plethora of other changes to get me to where I am at today. Just that one piece of gear (and NOS tubes) did that.

Long story short -

No tubes = Barley listened, didn't care for the sound.

Tubes = Loved the sound and started my audio journey back up form a lull.

Everyone is on a different path along their audio journey. Everyone prefers one thing or another. There is no right or wrong.

pearsall001 wrote:

My take is that tubes do add pleasing distortion that adds warmth & soul to the music but at what expense.

For many folks on this forum and others, it is an expense worthy of having. Everything in this hobby is a compromise/tradeoff. See or refer to this thread - https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/198325/how-many-tubes-do-you-have-in-your-rig/p1

VR3 wrote:

The price for the old 5u4g stuff costs as much as the gear, craziness! That was one of the reasons I parted with my ank dac

No one ever said this hobby was cheap. Thanks for the DAC, BTW. It sounds wonderful and has outstanding synergy within my rig. Much, much better than the LampizatOr. (Older model Lampi) Also, you don't necessarily need the "top shelf" NOS tubes. I have had some of the "preferred" tubes before in various gear and while others may "prefer" them? I do not. At least not in my rig. Some of them had very little attributes with way to many deficiencies. So, one must compromise.

In Phil's case? His compromise was to go direct from DAC to AMP and no tubes. That's his compromise and if he's down with it and enjoying what he is hearing? Perfect. His system is there to please no one but him and from the sounds of it? He's rather smitten on what he is hearing. Rock on brother.

Tom

Not a difficult decision at all...I just always trust my hearing, hasn't failed me yet.

And talk about opening up a can of worms here's another one...I sidelined my HALO A21+ amp & have been running my Parasound ZM 2350 amp with surprising results. The jury is still out but the Maggie's are smiling & so am I.

Merry Christmas everyone! ☃️🎄☃️🎄

Oh I gotta go, the microwave just beeped... the popcorn's done. 🤗🤗

GlennDog

VR3 wrote: »

The price for the old 5u4g stuff costs as much as the gear, craziness! That was one of the reasons I parted with my ank dac

I won't pay that amount for the rare/crème de la crème tubes, unless I win lotto. That's just KrayKray for a consumable item.

I had to think hard on shelling out 2 Fitty for the Riccardo Kron 5U4G that should be here next week.
btw, that's actually a too-good-to-be-true price. I hope it's all the seller claims it is. He seem legit

motorstereo

I thought these were some interesting comments to say the least from a tube amp manufacturer Ralph Karstan founder of Atma-Sphere.

Richard Austen said: ↑
I think that SET amplifiers still have the advantage of changing the tonal colour of the amp via tube rolling - effectively, yes, making it somewhat of a "natural" tone control.
As a tube amp manufacturer I see that as a weakness of tubes. Some tubes are better (usually some kind of rare expensive NOS thingy) and the simple fact is the manufacturer has to contend with what he can buy in quantity. I've stayed away for that and always designed for the garden variety that's commonly available. But you still hear differences from tube to tube. Even from the best to the worst there are often tradeoffs. Why not just get it to be as good as it can be and not have to worry about it over the life of the amp??

Goldendawn said: ↑
You just can't beat the sound of a tube amp. Solid states have got much better over the years but they lack something only warm tubes seem to be able to produce.
I am saying this statement was once true but is now false. You can beat the sound of a tube amp- and get the same liquid, organic 'magic' in the mids and highs. Its all engineering, as long as you understand the rules of human hearing.

Helom said: ↑
I’ve heard a lot of class D over the years including some high dollar examples and none have come remotely close to the sound of a SET amp, or even a SIT for that matter. They are usually the epitome of “bright and harsh” SS.

Ralph’s amps may indeed sound as good as a SET but they would be a rare if not singular exception.
I can't speak for other class D so much as I've only heard a few. The first class D I heard was over 20 years ago and I really wondered if the amp was meant as a joke.

But 7 years ago at AXPONA I heard a class D (sadly, the designer has passed away) that was excellent and challenged my perception of class D entiely- I realized if we didn't get it figured out we would be left behind so when I got home I started an R&D project of our own. In about 6 months we had a prototype that really demonstrated that this was worth looking into. It took 5 years (with a patent along the way) to get to what we wanted. I play them at home and don't miss the triode class A zero feedback OTLs I was running prior to that at all. I get the same quality of sound but none of the heat and the amps are ready to go when I turn them on. Its probably worth noting that our OTLs had been getting raves and awards in the high end press for several decades. So to me to beat our own tube amps was not trivial.

Again: any manufacturer of amplifiers that does not get class D figured out or have a good answer for it based on solid engineering is in danger of getting left behind. Tube power is on borrowed time- that time is simply that in which the market figures out that power tubes finally got outclassed.