Fellas, ya' gotta try this. Cheap and effective way to extract more out of your system!

pitdogg2

Gardenstater wrote: »

15A breakers are not "useless". In a circuit that was only designed for that they protect the wiring from overheating. If you were to put a 20A breaker on that circuit you could create a potentially hazardous condition where the load could cause the wires and outlets to overheat.

You don't rewire for 20A "receptacles". You would have to rewire for 20A breakers however.

If for instance you have 14ga wire on your 15amp circuit and you slap a 20amp breaker in place of the 15amp your wire now becomes the fuse, a fire waiting to happen.

msg

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

15A breakers are not "useless". In a circuit that was only designed for that they protect the wiring from overheating. If you were to put a 20A breaker on that circuit you could create a potentially hazardous condition where the load could cause the wires and outlets to overheat.

You don't rewire for 20A "receptacles". You would have to rewire for 20A breakers however.

If for instance you have 14ga wire on your 15amp circuit and you slap a 20amp breaker in place of the 15amp your wire now becomes the fuse, a fire waiting to happen.

"All my research and experience suggests it will be fine just long enough for testing." ~20A-Chris (R.I.P.), circa 2023 🕊️

joebass3

treitz3 wrote: »

Well, it appears that the CB's (Circuit breakers) are not all made alike. The ones that are available at the general hardware stores are not the same. Yes, they are UL listed (in other words, safe for use) but that they use the cheaper, inferior metals in the CB itself.

Tom

Can you post the info for the replacement breaker? Brand/PN? For $12 I'd like to give it a shot. Not to worry, years ago I pulled my electric meter and replaced my entire panel box/breakers. I didn't burn the house down then, so I should be OK to replace a single breaker.

ChrisD06

It appears some people don't understand how electricity works. Current is drawn, voltage is provided.

A device only draws as much current as it needs. If my gear currently runs on a 15A breaker and has never tripped it, it means that it hasn't drawn above 15A.

If I replace the breaker with a 20A one, even though the wire and receptacles are the exact same, it will draw the same amount of current, and because I know what I'm doing it's perfectly safe.

If you simply increased the capacity to prevent it from tripping because, say, you were using multiple electric heaters... goodbye house.

Also, Gardenstater, you're correct that the receptacle doesn't matter because some circuits are 20A but use NEMA 5-15 type receptacles for circuits where you won't use one 20A device, but could use multiple 15A (as in plug type) ones simultaneously.

Pitdogg, that's what I've mentioned. I have 14AWG wire in the basement which is why I will put my 15A breaker back the second I'm done testing.

Speaking of, I'll go swap that breaker right now. For schnitzels and giggles I'll use an IR thermometer and let you know the temperature of the wire insulation lol.

Gardenstater

It's a matter of NEC rules/guidelines. Not sure what they designate them in CA. You were putting information on the internet that was basically dangerous misinformation and I didn't want someone seeing that "15A breakers are useless" and going and changing all of them to 20A ones. Also, just because you are the owner or the tenant of the house currently doesn't mean someone else couldn't be harmed in the future by your actions.

stangman67

Please stop. You saying other people don’t understand electricity and then posting something ignorant is quite funny though.

What you are doing is stupid, dangerous, and absolutely pointless. Go ahead put that 20 amp in there, it will probably be fine forever, but when there’s an electrical fire and an investigation is held, will be denied insurance money because you stupidly put larger breakers in than your wiring is rated for. But hey, you work in a hardware store, so you must know what you are talking about.

stangman67

Also don’t you live in your parent’s basement? Bold move putting your parents house at risk because you think you know what you are talking about…..

ChrisD06

Well it seems some people can't read and decided to omit the fact I've stated multiple times this is dangerous to do and that I'm putting my 15A back 😂

Anyhow I did my swap. Popped the 15 out and put the 20 in. I did it hot too (NEVER DO IT HOT). Listened to Time, Great Gig in the Sky, Is There Anybody Out There, Comfortably Numb, Telegraph Road, and Money for Nothing.

Wire insulation did not rise above room temperature. No electrical fires to be had (because I was only drawing a couple amps of current).

Put the 15A back in because of code and safety reasons (apparently some people don't seem to grasp this).

Anyhow, I have my verdict on the breaker swap.

Based on the facts, and subjective listening, using the highest quality 20A breaker the electrical department at the hardware store I'm employed at sells, there was zero difference in the sound quality of my system, and I was thoroughly disappointed. If it was really that easy to make a huge difference, I'd have loved to have been proven wrong.

Unfortunately it's simply impossible, and my ears agreed with me.

Reminder to not deal with electrical stuff unless you know what you're doing, it's dangerous and unforgiving. Most breakers also use the same types of metal now.

Maybe I should test a GFCI or AFCI 🙃

Geoff4rfc

treitz3 wrote: »

So, I have been reading and researching quite a bit as of late. I came across this cat who builds custom circuit panels

Tom

Lol, this thread sure took a sharp turn and launched off a high cliff BUT.....I dig the way you talk man. @treitz3 I also say "cat" and "cat daddy" from time to time and people look at me and say, "there's a cat??"

Go ahead on with your bad self amigo!!!

Gardenstater

ChrisD06 wrote: »

Well it seems some people can't read and decided to omit the fact I've stated multiple times this is dangerous to do and that I'm putting my 15A back 😂

Anyhow I did my swap. Popped the 15 out and put the 20 in. I did it hot too (NEVER DO IT HOT). Listened to Time, Great Gig in the Sky, Is There Anybody Out There, Comfortably Numb, Telegraph Road, and Money for Nothing.

Wire insulation did not rise above room temperature. No electrical fires to be had (because I was only drawing a couple amps of current).

Put the 15A back in because of code and safety reasons (apparently some people don't seem to grasp this).

Anyhow, I have my verdict on the breaker swap.

Based on the facts, and subjective listening, using the highest quality 20A breaker the electrical department at the hardware store I'm employed at sells, there was zero difference in the sound quality of my system, and I was thoroughly disappointed. If it was really that easy to make a huge difference, I'd have loved to have been proven wrong.

Unfortunately it's simply impossible, and my ears agreed with me.

Reminder to not deal with electrical stuff unless you know what you're doing, it's dangerous and unforgiving. Most breakers also use the same types of metal now.

Maybe I should test a GFCI or AFCI 🙃

Did you clean the copper wire where it is inserted into the new breaker? Devils in the details if you want to try to compare your results with treitz3. Also, you cannot rule out that his breaker may have been higher quality and made better contact to the hot bus and internally than the one you used. Also, his old breaker may have been in a poorer state than your old one.

ChrisD06

Gardenstater wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

Well it seems some people can't read and decided to omit the fact I've stated multiple times this is dangerous to do and that I'm putting my 15A back 😂

Anyhow I did my swap. Popped the 15 out and put the 20 in. I did it hot too (NEVER DO IT HOT). Listened to Time, Great Gig in the Sky, Is There Anybody Out There, Comfortably Numb, Telegraph Road, and Money for Nothing.

Wire insulation did not rise above room temperature. No electrical fires to be had (because I was only drawing a couple amps of current).

Put the 15A back in because of code and safety reasons (apparently some people don't seem to grasp this).

Anyhow, I have my verdict on the breaker swap.

Based on the facts, and subjective listening, using the highest quality 20A breaker the electrical department at the hardware store I'm employed at sells, there was zero difference in the sound quality of my system, and I was thoroughly disappointed. If it was really that easy to make a huge difference, I'd have loved to have been proven wrong.

Unfortunately it's simply impossible, and my ears agreed with me.

Reminder to not deal with electrical stuff unless you know what you're doing, it's dangerous and unforgiving. Most breakers also use the same types of metal now.

Maybe I should test a GFCI or AFCI 🙃

Did you clean the copper wire where it is inserted into the new breaker? Devils in the details if you want to try to compare your results with treitz3. Also, you cannot rule out that his breaker may have been higher quality and made better contact to the hot bus and internally than the one you used. Also, his old breaker may have been in a poorer state than your old one.

Breakers are breakers. If his old one was in worse shape it wouldn't be working properly or he'd notice obvious issues with it. My copper wires were visibly flawless so I didn't clean them.

You do realize that 'better contact with the hot bus' is probably the most incredible thing I've ever read. If it made better contact, it wouldn't make a difference because it can handle the power throughput required, if it made inferior contact, it'd possibly cause an electrical fire. The way breakers go into the hot bus is a standard.

If treitz30 posts his breaker make and model, I'd be more than glad to see if mine is higher/equal/worse quality.

Gardenstater

Not all contacts are of equal quality and that can be picked up by a good ear if the person's system is also refined enough. All the audio connectors and outlets are micro polished for example. You have a lot to learn but are entitled to your skepticism. Just because you're still a kid doesn't mean your ears are great either 😉 You have no idea what oxidation can do inside an electrical outlet or a breaker. I've recently seen wires inside outlets that I replaced for someone that were black and arcing inside the outlet. That undoubtedly was due to some 45 years of oxidation that led to that. The customer had no idea that there was a problem. Just food for thought for you if you wish to believe for a second that you don't know everything.

stangman67

Admitting you don’t know everything seems pretty tough nowadays. Humility isn’t something that is common, more of the I read it on the internet once or talked to someone knowledgeable about something for an hour so therefore I know what I’m doing

ChrisD06

Gardenstater wrote: »

Not all contacts are of equal quality and that can be picked up by a good ear if the person's system is also refined enough. All the audio connectors and outlets are micro polished for example. You have a lot to learn but are entitled to your skepticism. Just because you're still a kid doesn't mean your ears are great either 😉 You have no idea what oxidation can do inside an electrical outlet or a breaker. I've recently seen wires inside outlets that I replaced for someone that were black and arcing inside the outlet. That undoubtedly was due to some 45 years of oxidation that led to that. The customer had no idea that there was a problem. Just food for thought for you if you wish to believe for a second that you don't know everything.

Oh yeah oxidation is a real issue for electrical gear, but I couldn't see any and it's visible if it'll cause negative effect. SInce I did it hot, I wasn't gonna touch the hot bus to clean the contact nor was I gonna bother with the other wires (wouldn't make sense to clean one and not the other when both looked fine). Incase you're curious why I did it hot, my family wouldn't appreciate a 5 minute blackout.

Viking64

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

I also say "cat" and "cat daddy" from time to time.

Make sure to throw a "hep cat" and a "cool cat" in there every once in a while. That would make things groovy.

Gardenstater

Here's the back of a 45 yr old or so duplex outlet and the wires I pulled out of it, in a bathroom where they were using a hand hair dryer on a daily basis. They had no clue there was a problem. Do you think they would've heard a problem if this was supplying an amplifier in a high resolution audio system, and it was then replaced with a brand new hospital grade outlet? Do you think the contacts inside an old circuit breaker could oxidize like this, possibly?

stangman67

Nah that’s just cryo treatment. Bet that hairdryer sounded mint!

ChrisD06

Gardenstater wrote: »

Here's the back of a 45 yr old or so duplex outlet and the wires I pulled out of it, in a bathroom where they were using a hand hair dryer on a daily basis. They had no clue there was a problem. Do you think they would've heard a problem if this was supplying an amplifier in a high resolution audio system, and it was then replaced with a brand new hospital grade outlet? Do you think the contacts inside an old circuit breaker could oxidize like this, possibly?

Mine looked nothing like that, but that looks like a fire hazard.

I've actually been meaning to check the sockets and light switches around the bathrooms, the ventilation fans and HRV do a superb job but you never know.

invalid

ChrisD06 wrote: »

It appears some people don't understand how electricity works. Current is drawn, voltage is provided.

A device only draws as much current as it needs. If my gear currently runs on a 15A breaker and has never tripped it, it means that it hasn't drawn above 15A.

These statements are not entirely true, amplifiers can draw way more current than 15 amps for very short durations from a circuit without tripping the breaker, and this will also cause voltage drop which can hinder the performance of the amplifier.

Gardenstater

stangman67 wrote: »

Nah that’s just cryo treatment. Bet that hairdryer sounded mint!

I'm thinking Smoke On The Water.

ChrisD06

invalid wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

It appears some people don't understand how electricity works. Current is drawn, voltage is provided.

A device only draws as much current as it needs. If my gear currently runs on a 15A breaker and has never tripped it, it means that it hasn't drawn above 15A.

These statements are not entirely true, amplifiers can draw way more current than 15 amps for very short durations from a circuit without tripping the breaker, and this will also cause voltage drop which can hinder the performance of the amplifier.

I would be flabbergasted at an amplifier drawing over 15 amps. That's extremely excessive and would be about 1800 watts of power going to it. Unless you're listening at concert levels of volume, I doubt it.

For reference, even 450W of continuous power would yield approximately 118dB where I'm sitting. If it peaked at 1800W, it would yield abour 124dB and not only permanently damage my hearing, but also cause physical pain.

If you're listening at normaly listening levels on efficient speakers and your amp goes from under a watt to over 1800 watts for a short burst of time... oh boy

tophatjohnny

I think Tom has left this part of the building of the building😂😂

VR3

The kw750 at peak output can draw 22 amps, just saying

There are also many amps that require 30 amp circuits

GlennDog

Chris,
Food for thought, the black power conductor isn't the only wire carrying electrons. Equipment ground and neutral are equally important.
If at some point, you start rolling tubes, you'll quickly understand the necessity of a clean contact

Enjoy the muzik!

pitdogg2

Gardenstater wrote: »

Here's the back of a 45 yr old or so duplex outlet and the wires I pulled out of it, in a bathroom where they were using a hand hair dryer on a daily basis. They had no clue there was a problem. Do you think they would've heard a problem if this was supplying an amplifier in a high resolution audio system, and it was then replaced with a brand new hospital grade outlet? Do you think the contacts inside an old circuit breaker could oxidize like this, possibly?

Those spring stab backs were known to cause fires from the spring loosing tension from heat build up, they then would arc which as you can plainly see that one was on its way. NEVER USE THOSE!!
My father used those when he built the house I now own in 1989. Over the years while he was alive I'd get a call to come fix an outlet or switch because they were sparking. He was the cheapest SOB, he spent a princely sum of .15¢ on the switch and .20¢ on the outlets. For a dime more he could have bought a much superior switch and outlet. First thing I did when I moved in to take care of my mother was change out every outlet and switch. Trust me not one came from the bulk bin on the bottom shelf at the building store. My mother bulked but I told he I'd never be able to sleep at night knowing I could wake up dead. When I showed her some of her melted switches and outlets she was astonished that the house never caught fire.

ChrisD06

VR3 wrote: »

The kw750 at peak output can draw 22 amps, just saying

There are also many amps that require 30 amp circuits

That's 750W though which is insane! Not surprised it draws that much current. I am actually going to install a brand new dedicated circuit using a 4-gang outlet box so my game/media devices and audio devices are on separate circuits, and so the audio devices share the exact same ground prior to the panel.

It will be 30 amp wiring, I'll use 20A receptacles though.

ChrisD06

GlennDog wrote: »

Chris,
Food for thought, the black power conductor isn't the only wire carrying electrons. Equipment ground and neutral are equally important.
If at some point, you start rolling tubes, you'll quickly understand the necessity of a clean contact

Enjoy the muzik!

Yes sir, I didn't clean the neutral or ground because they looked fine and since the hot wasn't cleaned, I figured it wouldn't be too big of a deal.

For the record I'm looking into doing a 200A service upgrade for my home, as we have one breaker spot left and that's for the central vacuum meaning I'll have no more spots for my A/V gear. I'll clean the wires then.

pitdogg2

Sure you will buddy. Please invest in good smoke detectors and a large fire extinguisher.

GlennDog

another thought (for everyone) is the size of the service drop or lateral (electrical feed to the home) . . .

if it's small diameter, only so much juice can flow thru . . . Dig?

stangman67

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Sure you will buddy. Please invest in good smoke detectors and a large fire extinguisher.

Seconded. And a fireproof home insurance policy