Fellas, ya' gotta try this. Cheap and effective way to extract more out of your system!
treitz3
Posts: 19,027
So, I have been reading and researching quite a bit as of late. I came across this cat who builds custom circuit panels for audiophiles and one of his suggestions was to do this;
Change out the circuit breaker leading to your system every 3 to 4 years. Not with one that comes from Ace, HD or Lowe's. He was talking about getting a circuit breaker from a dedicated electric store. In other words, a professional electric supplier.
Why, you ask? Well, it appears that the CB's (Circuit breakers) are not all made alike. The ones that are available at the general hardware stores are not the same. Yes, they are UL listed (in other words, safe for use) but that they use the cheaper, inferior metals in the CB itself.
So, two weeks ago, I was at an electrical supplier getting materials for one of my reno's and asked if, in fact, this was the case and this was confirmed. Not knowing at that particular point in time what my CB rating or even brand was, I told him that I would return when I knew.
This morning, I schlepped up to that same store and purchased just one breaker. A 20 amp breaker that was compatible with my panel. I was gonna do a A/B comparison but decided against this, as I would either hear a change or not (I am very familiar with my system). So, I came home and simply installed it.
I took the copper wire and scuffed it, tightly secured it and placed it within the panel, keeping the lid off just in case I needed to make any adjustments. The family isn't home right now, so it was safe to do so.
Went back to have a listen. I fired up the rig and let her warm up for a grand total of about 5 minutes. I usually wait about 30, so I was pushing the envelope here. Anyhoo, I hit play and INSTANTLY knew that this was a change for the better. What a shock.....I was honestly not expecting any kind of change whatsoever. I was wrong!
I listened for about an hour or so, then got a phone call that lasted a stint, but I let the system keep playing.
When I sat back down, I was very pleasantly surprised that the sound had changed yet again. The imaging expanded even wider than it had when I first listened. The speakers disappeared even more than they had before. The subtleties and intricate but delicate nuances were enhanced but not exaggerated. Basically, it was the same system, with not one thing changed, only the CB.
For a whopping total of less than $12, I just increased the performance of the rig. I will most definitely be doing this again in 3 or so years and I am thinking about changing the CB to the circuit that the modem, router and associated LPS's are on as well.
If you know what it is you are doing, I highly recommend doing just this. If you do not, DO NOT attempt to do this. Hire a professional!!! Read that last sentence again. The voltages within a home panel are lethal and this is no joke.
That said, this was a cheap and very effective upgrade. I only wish I had done this sooner, as I have known about this for a month or two....maybe longer. DOH!
Tom
Change out the circuit breaker leading to your system every 3 to 4 years. Not with one that comes from Ace, HD or Lowe's. He was talking about getting a circuit breaker from a dedicated electric store. In other words, a professional electric supplier.
Why, you ask? Well, it appears that the CB's (Circuit breakers) are not all made alike. The ones that are available at the general hardware stores are not the same. Yes, they are UL listed (in other words, safe for use) but that they use the cheaper, inferior metals in the CB itself.
So, two weeks ago, I was at an electrical supplier getting materials for one of my reno's and asked if, in fact, this was the case and this was confirmed. Not knowing at that particular point in time what my CB rating or even brand was, I told him that I would return when I knew.
This morning, I schlepped up to that same store and purchased just one breaker. A 20 amp breaker that was compatible with my panel. I was gonna do a A/B comparison but decided against this, as I would either hear a change or not (I am very familiar with my system). So, I came home and simply installed it.
I took the copper wire and scuffed it, tightly secured it and placed it within the panel, keeping the lid off just in case I needed to make any adjustments. The family isn't home right now, so it was safe to do so.
Went back to have a listen. I fired up the rig and let her warm up for a grand total of about 5 minutes. I usually wait about 30, so I was pushing the envelope here. Anyhoo, I hit play and INSTANTLY knew that this was a change for the better. What a shock.....I was honestly not expecting any kind of change whatsoever. I was wrong!
I listened for about an hour or so, then got a phone call that lasted a stint, but I let the system keep playing.
When I sat back down, I was very pleasantly surprised that the sound had changed yet again. The imaging expanded even wider than it had when I first listened. The speakers disappeared even more than they had before. The subtleties and intricate but delicate nuances were enhanced but not exaggerated. Basically, it was the same system, with not one thing changed, only the CB.
For a whopping total of less than $12, I just increased the performance of the rig. I will most definitely be doing this again in 3 or so years and I am thinking about changing the CB to the circuit that the modem, router and associated LPS's are on as well.
If you know what it is you are doing, I highly recommend doing just this. If you do not, DO NOT attempt to do this. Hire a professional!!! Read that last sentence again. The voltages within a home panel are lethal and this is no joke.
That said, this was a cheap and very effective upgrade. I only wish I had done this sooner, as I have known about this for a month or two....maybe longer. DOH!
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
Comments
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I have to call BS. I looked at one of my spare breakers, got all the info off it and went online to look at what supply houses are selling vs. Home Depot. They have same exact specs, same part numbers...everything is exactly the same except the price. Some supply houses were less than HD and some were more.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Now you should send that circuit breaker out for cryo treatment and also run dedicated 12awg Neotech solid UPOCC hookup wire from the breaker to your audio outlet, which could be one of those $450 Synergistic Research Purple 20A Duplex ones with the woven graphite carbon outlet covers.
George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on audio cables in that, while we strongly disagree, there are tons of factors that go into these cables and there aren't any regulations on them, so finding cables which are super low resistance and whatnot is possible.
I work in a hardware store and I asked the electrical guy, who is an electrician by trade, after reading this post if there are differences in the quality of metals in circuit breakers and if they can make a difference for your A/V gear. Yes, but it's genuinely not making a difference.
Circuit breakers work in a very simple fashion. Transfer 120VAC 60Hz to your devices without exceeding their current ratings. When the current rating is exceeded they trip. How do they trip, though? This is very important to why this genuinely is impossible. It's a thermal trip. Whether it be copper, aluminum, solid 24 karat gold, or silver, the circuit breaker is built to a specific resistance to handle 120VAC at 15 amps, any higher and the internals heat up, causing a trip.
The quality of the metals actually won't change the sound of your audio. I'm not trying to be a shaft about this either, it's just that whoever told you this is full of baloney. The metals, no matter the quality, are built to have a very specific resistance so they trip when a certain amperage is exceeded. They're designed to transfer 120VAC consistently, with tolerances for voltage fluctuations, and at 60Hz.
Circuit breakers need replacing every 30-40 years under typical usage. When the breaker wears out, it will let you know by constantly tripping, not resetting, etc. Breakers wear out faster the more you trip them. Please don't replace them every 3-4 years. Not only is it not worth the risk (small, if you know what you're doing, but still very real) but also not worth the cost as they have one simple job and when they need to be replaced, they just wont perform that job.
But how could you genuinely improve your audio quality based on wall power alone? Power conditioners. Smooth out those voltage fluctuations and the AC noise that can make it's way into the amp and dirty your sound. -
There may be differences in the metals used by different manufacturers, but not between the same make/model of breaker.
Can different metals effect the sound as the breaker passes the current?
Absolutely!!!
A dedicated 12 or preferably 10 gauge line and a high quality outlet are the important aspects to getting power to your gear. Power conditioners can be very good to really bad for the sound, but that's another discussion.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
All I have to say Jesse, is go ask your local professional the next time you are in a professional electrical supply store.
I too was skeptical, which is why I asked out of the blue. When I went today to buy the CB, the two guys there reconfirmed what I asked someone else who worked at the same joint.
TBT, I could really care less about that aspect. Whether it's true or not may end up being debatable until you know what freezes over.
The end result as to what hits these ears is ALL that really matters to me. The change was undeniable and I am still enjoying the changes. It's wonderful to only spend 12 bucks and get this kind of increase.
So, before you call BS....without even hearing it? Try it. Then and only then can you tell me I am wrong. Not before.
My ears do not lie and this sounds incredible. Best $12 I ever spent!
BTW, and on a different note....my home was built in 1982 and I have a feeling that the entire panel was changed out when the original owner (also named Tom) built the shop/landscape shop and the sunroom/made a new MBR.
I would estimate that the addition was built within the past 20 years. Assuming that, and the panel change being that long ago, that's 20 years of use for that breaker. That's also 20 years of nothing moving along the ground post and positive connection with said breaker.
You and I both know that simply cleaning a connection makes a change. Here, I cleaned the copper wire and replaced an estimated 20 year old breaker. On the main connection leading to the system itself.....not a PC or an IC...the main connection.
I am also contemplating changing out the main house kill switch, the difference is so nice. Your mileage and opinion may vary but to my ears? No contest. None.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
So, before you call BS....without even hearing it? Try it. Then and only then can you tell me I am wrong. Not before.
I have a spare 20A rated breaker which I paid like $25 for, and it's just a regular old breaker. Highest-end one we sell and I was gonna use it for my central vacuum circuit but... you're on. I'll pop it in place of the 15A I have for my current gear and report back with the results probably tomorrow night and then swap it back (20A for the central vac is necessary, I need that breaker) -
There may be differences in the metals used by different manufacturers, but not between the same make/model of breaker.
Can different metals effect the sound as the breaker passes the current?
Absolutely!!!
A dedicated 12 or preferably 10 gauge line and a high quality outlet are the important aspects to getting power to your gear. Power conditioners can be very good to really bad for the sound, but that's another discussion.
I have no doubt the wire gauge for your electrical cables would make a difference, as they heat up to 75 degrees when at their maximum current load (15A for 14AWG, 20A for 12AWG) and copper increases it's electrical resistance the hotter it gets. The breaker I am unconvinced as they are designed to maintain a certain resistance and once the temperature is too hot, it trips, thus ending the potential increase of any resistance. The only time the resistance does rise is for a few seconds before a trip. -
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I did. He also confirmed this.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I have a spare 20A rated breaker <snip> I'll pop it in place of the 15A I have for my current gear and report back
Please re-read that which is highlighted in bold on the OP. Then reread it 20 to 40 more times.
*slaps forehead*
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I know what I'm doing lol. I've replaced breakers before. My gear doesn't draw near to 15 amps, so a 20 amp breaker isn't a hazard unless I exceed the 15A rating of the 14AWG wire, which would cause an electrical fire.
Also when I said regular old breaker I don't mean it's junk, I mean it's not a dual-function, a GFCI, or a (C)AFCI -
Please realize that the post above does NOT reflect the opinions or stance of the Polk Audio website, it's members and is NOT advised, under any circumstance.
It's his house, his gear and bless his heart....
That's all I will say about that. Do NOT attempt to do this yourself. You have been warned. I feel bad now that I even made this thread....(hind sight is always 20/20)
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I know what I'm doing lol. I've replaced breakers before. My gear doesn't draw near to 15 amps, so a 20 amp breaker isn't a hazard unless I exceed the 15A rating of the 14AWG wire, which would cause an electrical fire.
Also when I said regular old breaker I don't mean it's junk, I mean it's not a dual-function, a GFCI, or a (C)AFCI
A 15-amp breaker should NEVER be used to power ANY circuit that has ANY receptacle on it. Their mere existence is pointless. 14-gauge wire should only be used for lighting circuits, and that's only to meet requirements for number of conductors in electrical boxes.
I bet switching a 15-amp circuit breaker for a 20-amp breaker would yield at least as much sound quality improvement as many other upgrades.
From experience: When I upgraded my old 12/2 Romex dedicated 20-amp circuit feeding my power amp to 10-gauge wire and a 30-amp breaker, it was like I added $15,000 worth of gear to my system. -
From where I'm sitting, you may be slapping the wrong forehead.
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You are sitting in the wrong seat.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I know what I'm doing lol. I've replaced breakers before. My gear doesn't draw near to 15 amps, so a 20 amp breaker isn't a hazard unless I exceed the 15A rating of the 14AWG wire, which would cause an electrical fire.
Also when I said regular old breaker I don't mean it's junk, I mean it's not a dual-function, a GFCI, or a (C)AFCI
A 15-amp breaker should NEVER be used to power ANY circuit that has ANY receptacle on it. Their mere existence is pointless. 14-gauge wire should only be used for lighting circuits, and that's only to meet requirements for number of conductors in electrical boxes.
I bet switching a 15-amp circuit breaker for a 20-amp breaker would yield at least as much sound quality improvement as many other upgrades.
From experience: When I upgraded my old 12/2 Romex dedicated 20-amp circuit feeding my power amp to 10-gauge wire and a 30-amp breaker, it was like I added $15,000 worth of gear to my system.
I did not build our house, nor did I finish our basement. We have a 125A breaker panel that is pretty much at it's limit, if we even got a 15A mini-split heat pump we'd need a 200A service upgrade.
Our home was built by some lazy contractors. It's from 2008, was built in an environment that is humid and very hot, or very dry and cold, and it lacks proper insulation and was fitted with an oil-fired boiler for baseboard heating. It should have forced air but nope, the least efficient, most ineffective heat source possible and horrible humidity issues (condensation caused an electrical fire a couple years back).
I am not rewiring the basement for 20A receptacles because I am terrified of the awful work that I've already come across, but yeah, 15A breakers are useless. -
Unfortunately back in the early 90's and again during the scamdemic when copper wire went sky high, many houses were built with 14ga wire.
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Dude, oil fired hot water base board heating is the absolute best. No lukewarm, bone dry, static and dust causing air flying around the house. Mine is 89% efficient and my house is extremely comfortable in the dead of freezing winter.
Humidity from an oil boiler/base board system? WTF are you smoking!?!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Dude, oil fired hot water base board heating is the absolute best. No lukewarm, bone dry, static and dust causing air flying around the house. Mine is 89% efficient and my house is extremely comfortable in the dead of freezing winter.
Humidity from an oil boiler/base board system? WTF are you smoking!?!
Nono the humidity is due to the climate here, we don't have any means of removing it when it hits 40 degrees.
I don't mind baseboard in the winter, but I love forced air. I have chronic eczema (it's severe, like my hands fall apart) and baseboard heat is so friggin dry. We used to have natural gas forced air and an AC unit from Lennox in the old house... my god it was beautiful. We could control humidity, temperature, and the air quality (with an HRV).
I want to put a central heat pump in the house but my mom thinks it'd cost more money to run the heat pump than oil. We pay... $5000-$6000 a year for oil. A central heat pump would be about 1/3rd the cost in electricity. I'll do all the stuff I want when I have my own house.
Also... dust in the air isn't a ductwork problem, it's a vacuum and HVAC filter problem. It's why I bought a central vac lol -
I do find it amazing that I share something that could benefit the members of this forum for DIRT CHEAP.....
....and yet here we are....
Y'all do what the F you want. Debate all you want, go possibly burn down your houses all you want.
Be rest assured I could give a rat's a@$.
I will listen to my "BS" in peace and safely. With that said? I may or may not return to this thread. What a GD train wreck. This forum is usually better than this.
Later 'tater's
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Same make/model/part numbers between what HD sells and what the supply houses sell. How in the world could they be different?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Dude, oil fired hot water base board heating is the absolute best. No lukewarm, bone dry, static and dust causing air flying around the house. Mine is 89% efficient and my house is extremely comfortable in the dead of freezing winter.
Humidity from an oil boiler/base board system? WTF are you smoking!?!
Nono the humidity is due to the climate here, we don't have any means of removing it when it hits 40 degrees.
I don't mind baseboard in the winter, but I love forced air. I have chronic eczema (it's severe, like my hands fall apart) and baseboard heat is so friggin dry. We used to have natural gas forced air and an AC unit from Lennox in the old house... my god it was beautiful. We could control humidity, temperature, and the air quality (with an HRV).
I want to put a central heat pump in the house but my mom thinks it'd cost more money to run the heat pump than oil. We pay... $5000-$6000 a year for oil. A central heat pump would be about 1/3rd the cost in electricity. I'll do all the stuff I want when I have my own house.
Also... dust in the air isn't a ductwork problem, it's a vacuum and HVAC filter problem. It's why I bought a central vac lol
You seem very confused.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Dude, oil fired hot water base board heating is the absolute best. No lukewarm, bone dry, static and dust causing air flying around the house. Mine is 89% efficient and my house is extremely comfortable in the dead of freezing winter.
Humidity from an oil boiler/base board system? WTF are you smoking!?!
Nono the humidity is due to the climate here, we don't have any means of removing it when it hits 40 degrees.
I don't mind baseboard in the winter, but I love forced air. I have chronic eczema (it's severe, like my hands fall apart) and baseboard heat is so friggin dry. We used to have natural gas forced air and an AC unit from Lennox in the old house... my god it was beautiful. We could control humidity, temperature, and the air quality (with an HRV).
I want to put a central heat pump in the house but my mom thinks it'd cost more money to run the heat pump than oil. We pay... $5000-$6000 a year for oil. A central heat pump would be about 1/3rd the cost in electricity. I'll do all the stuff I want when I have my own house.
Also... dust in the air isn't a ductwork problem, it's a vacuum and HVAC filter problem. It's why I bought a central vac lol
You seem very confused.
Not sure what I'm confused on... I already did an energy assessment on the home and you have to remember I live in Canada so switching from oil is important before the carbon tax becomes $800/L or whatever prime minister Turdwater wants to make it -
@ChrisD06 you aren't totally correct about breakers tripping points, they are thermal magnetic, and time sensitive.
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@ChrisD06 you aren't totally correct about breakers tripping points, they are thermal magnetic, and time sensitive.
You are right, thank you for the correction. -
Furutech gold plated circuit breakers anyone
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What Are You Listening To? Asking for a friend 😂"if it's not fun, it's not worth it & remember folks, "It's All About The Music"!!
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Is it possible that the improvement you are hearing is just due to the fact that the old breaker had oxidized contacts that caused an impedance to transient current response? Putting the new one in and also scuffing up the copper wire and removing oxidation from that, minimized that contact resistance.
Could you give us the make and model# of the breakers, old vs. new?George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
I know what I'm doing lol. I've replaced breakers before. My gear doesn't draw near to 15 amps, so a 20 amp breaker isn't a hazard unless I exceed the 15A rating of the 14AWG wire, which would cause an electrical fire.
Also when I said regular old breaker I don't mean it's junk, I mean it's not a dual-function, a GFCI, or a (C)AFCI
A 15-amp breaker should NEVER be used to power ANY circuit that has ANY receptacle on it. Their mere existence is pointless. 14-gauge wire should only be used for lighting circuits, and that's only to meet requirements for number of conductors in electrical boxes.
I bet switching a 15-amp circuit breaker for a 20-amp breaker would yield at least as much sound quality improvement as many other upgrades.
From experience: When I upgraded my old 12/2 Romex dedicated 20-amp circuit feeding my power amp to 10-gauge wire and a 30-amp breaker, it was like I added $15,000 worth of gear to my system.
I did not build our house, nor did I finish our basement. We have a 125A breaker panel that is pretty much at it's limit, if we even got a 15A mini-split heat pump we'd need a 200A service upgrade.
Our home was built by some lazy contractors. It's from 2008, was built in an environment that is humid and very hot, or very dry and cold, and it lacks proper insulation and was fitted with an oil-fired boiler for baseboard heating. It should have forced air but nope, the least efficient, most ineffective heat source possible and horrible humidity issues (condensation caused an electrical fire a couple years back).
I am not rewiring the basement for 20A receptacles because I am terrified of the awful work that I've already come across, but yeah, 15A breakers are useless.
15A breakers are not "useless". In a circuit that was only designed for that they protect the wiring from overheating. If you were to put a 20A breaker on that circuit you could create a potentially hazardous condition where the load could cause the wires and outlets to overheat.
You don't rewire for 20A "receptacles". You would have to rewire for 20A breakers however.
George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
