Polk R700 Polarity & other issues
Comments
-
Ah, I thought you were using that Arcam piece and Dirac with your L800s.I disabled signatures.
-
Have you ever done a bass crawl around your room?
Who, me? Not exactly. I find it hard balance the sub on my back while doing that.I disabled signatures. -
Well, umm I umm....no not you, I knew YOU would do it bassakwords....try spikes on the sub next time....
-
Have you ever done a bass crawl around your room?
I have, my sub sounds best way off to left side of the room and wall. Wifey does not like the sub in that location though 😕 -
Well you know the answer to that, right?I disabled signatures.
-
Good info.
I'm not an expert at setup or audio science, only recognizing something similar to what I've battled. With the room and placement open for consideration, now I'm thinking it could make perfect sense that this could present as phase cancelation, suspecting driver phase wiring error, experiencing moderate improvements with driver phase changes, but that it's still not quite right sounding?
Curious to see how this shakes out. Seems like a DSP piece might best dial the setup, but I'm outta my element there.
@txcoastal1 - you have some experience here, don't you?
@HalfOhm - I just reread your original post and saw that you had an Arcam with Dirac Live. I've heard great things about this and was just going to mention it. I wonder if its correction capability and loss of that functionality from your system has better revealed the room and placement difficulties?
Did you ever get a chance to run the R700s with the Arcam SA30 and Dirac?
Also, @rooftop59 and @nooshinjohn have Dirac capable front ends, and may be able to weigh in here.
No I never had the chance to run Dirac or the SA30 with the R700's. My Umik mic came in today though. I know just enough on REW to take measurements and adjust a curve to my liking. My RME ADI-2 dac basically has 7 PEQ slots, although 2 are extremely limited. My SVS sub has 3 PEQ settings as well in its app. I should have the ability to make some decent adjustments..as long as the speakers cooperate.
REW isn't completely compatible with my dac that it will tell me the exact filters to apply but it will give me enough information that I will know what areas need improving. There will be a lot of tinkering and remeasuring. Tomorrow or this weekend I will put the time in, I'll post some before and afters.
I listened to some music this morning, put the sub in and boosted the bass. It was sounding pretty decent today. Although a lot of the bass was just blended together if you know what I mean. Like listening to tracks with stand up bass plucking had no authority or separation. The sub was giving me the deep bass but then it was showing how weak the mid-bass was. Hopefully if I can dial in the EQ it will get better though. Midrange sounds good, highs aren't overly extended or stand out but honestly I'm kinda sensitive to treble. I find the Reserves to be good enough in this area. I'm trying to be optimistic about the whole thing.
Oh yeah, I had the sub right next to one of the towers and after listening for awhile I switched the polarity on the sub..it sounded and blended better after the switch. -
Leave it and tell her to find something she likes about it?
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
On Monday I'll sneak it back over there. She normally doesn't like me having towers in the living room either. I set the Polk's up when she wasn't home..she really hasn't said anything about them this time. Sometimes I just have to push her boundaries a little bit, I just need to be respectful about it and eventually she usually gives in. I just have to be careful, I could see her getting a little upset about the sub then being "I told you I don't like those big ugly speakers in the living room either!"
She appreciates good sound and music more and more now, so if I can get it all dialed in and sounding sweet I could see her looking the other way when it comes to the sub placement. I could be wrong though ..but it's worth a try 😃 -
Well my asking about the crawl with the sub off was to see if indeed you are sitting in the null. -
On Monday I'll sneak it back over there. She normally doesn't like me having towers in the living room either. I set the Polk's up when she wasn't home..she really hasn't said anything about them this time. Sometimes I just have to push her boundaries a little bit, I just need to be respectful about it and eventually she usually gives in. I just have to be careful, I could see her getting a little upset about the sub then being "I told you I don't like those big ugly speakers in the living room either!"
She appreciates good sound and music more and more now, so if I can get it all dialed in and sounding sweet I could see her looking the other way when it comes to the sub placement. I could be wrong though ..but it's worth a try 😃
Yeah, fine line between "pushing the boundary" and walking in to find Dixon Ticonderoga #2s creatively arrayed in every driver in the room, and the box for an Insignia soundbar leaning up against the wall.I disabled signatures. -
My wife wanted to know if she could use my system to “play records.”
I showed her this warning and a few other similar ones from the manual for my amp and advised her NEVER to touch it. It has worked, so far.
See if your sub or speaker manuals say anything similar.
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
^^^ GENIUS!!!
We're likely just days away from having manipulation redefined and turned into a male pejorative, so take advantage of this before the message spreads!I disabled signatures. -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Good info.
Also, @rooftop59 and @nooshinjohn have Dirac capable front ends, and may be able to weigh in here.
When I finally get around to setting up my HT, I will let you know...
In my large room with very high ceilings opening into other large rooms all with lots of hard surfaces, Dirac live is amazing. Tightens up the bass, cleans up the midrange, expands the soundstage, makes individual instruments more easily located in the stage.. And yes it will definitely help with any room nulls. Now that being said, it can’t give you what you don’t have. I have big bookies that go down to the mid to low 40s and two eight inch sealed DIY subs. Before Dirac, I could barely hear a 30hz tone. Now it’s basically flat to 25hz, rolls off to 20 and then falls off a cliff. But can I can clubbin’ bass levels? No. My room is too big and my subs are too small. Can’t defy the laws of physics…Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
Very cool you are enjoying and maximizing your system with the Dirac Live. It has only been within the last couple years that I have experimented with adding DSP and understanding the importance of speaker room measurements, especially with subwoofers. It's just not something that I and probably a lot of others ever paid much attention to in 2channel set ups. I still find it very frustrating at times setting these devices up or taking measurements but I feel when you get it right it's worth the trouble. Even though I had a few hiccups getting Dirac set up I do find it pretty simple to work with after a few tries.
The wife had taken off for a couple hours so I pulled the computer into the living room, inserted my calibration file into REW, dug out the boom stand from the garage and was getting all excited..ready to tinker and play with these Polk's. The new mic's supplied USB cable is about 3 feet too short. Had to order an active extender, won't be here til tomorrow 😕 -
-
I haven't been able to play with the stereo last few days, we are in the process of getting the house painted. Thru moving the speakers around, closer to wall I've been able to up the lower bass(also adding a sub) but I have some bad dips between 100-200hz. This photo I posted is smoothed a bit so it doesn't look as bad as it is but I have a couple 10db dips between 100-200hz. I've done a bunch of measures and different EQ filters but I can't get my mid to low bass where I want it. I don't have enough PEQ tabs on my dac to get it where I want it. I got a much better FR in my room with the R200's. Certainly didn't have any dips with the bookshelves til around 50hz.
-
For things to sound proper you can't boost frequency's too much, mostly need to pull down on the EQ. Taking the sub out and playing with just the mains I can get a flatter response by EQ'ing, but I like much more of a dip or rolloff with the high frequency to get the bass to stand out.
-
If I can't find a way to get this to my liking I might have to let these go. I still can't shake the thought that these woofers have issues..or maybe just issues with my room. Everything 300hz and under (where the woofers cross over) just seems a hair underpowered compared to the mids & highs..I need to get it to push out more
-
Dude, you have a Mac and your taking pictures of your screen? Killin' me Smalls...
CMD+CTRL+Shift+4
Drag a Window
Captures to clipboard
Open Preview, CMD+N for "New From Clipboard"
Resize if needed, copy, paste into forum. Boom. You're a pro.
Also, Grab is pretty handy. Add 'em to the dock!
I disabled signatures. -
Another post where I couldn’t decide whether to LOL or Agree.
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
If I can't find a way to get this to my liking I might have to let these go. I still can't shake the thought that these woofers have issues..or maybe just issues with my room. Everything 300hz and under (where the woofers cross over) just seems a hair underpowered compared to the mids & highs..I need to get it to push out more
Did you put everything back the way it was?!? lol I jest I jest, but only 96.959% joking.
Also - it may be that you're better suited with large bookshelf speakers and a sub.
I prefer it in my space, because I have a bass suckout and I sit in a null. Larger speakers work with a sub, too, but for some reason, to me, it's just cleaner with large bookshelf speakers and a sub.
I've found this to be true with
- LSiM703
- LSi7 < a favorite
- L200
- Wharfedale Linton << current favorite
LSiM705s were not a good fit at all, even with a sub. They just sounded thin in my space. But in a smaller, more conventional room? FULL sounding, with loads of bass.
L800s are nice mostly because of the SDA, and they're the best floorstanding speakers I've had so far, but they still need the sub in my space.
On some tracks the L800s sound good and fine without a sub, but mostly, it's like this bottom-end ghost-sense - I can tell the bass is there, I can feel it a little bit, but it's somehow just not there. Hard to explain. I go back to that engine timing comparison to describe it. You hear the engine revving, you're full throttle, you know it should be pulling, but no torque.
I disabled signatures. -
Dude, you have a Mac and your taking pictures of your screen? Killin' me Smalls...
CMD+CTRL+Shift+4
Drag a Window
Captures to clipboard
Open Preview, CMD+N for "New From Clipboard"
Resize if needed, copy, paste into forum. Boom. You're a pro.
Also, Grab is pretty handy. Add 'em to the dock!
😂 Yeah I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to computers. I hardly ever touch that thing..I still use an Android phone. I'll see if I can follow your instructions and post like a "pro" next time. That friggin Mac frustrates me more times than not -
I really shouldn't complain, in all honesty the speakers sound pretty good. I'll put all the anxiety and critical listening aside and just enjoy these for a little while.
-
If you're using REW you're not ignorant when it comes to computersDude, you have a Mac and your taking pictures of your screen? Killin' me Smalls...
CMD+CTRL+Shift+4
Drag a Window
Captures to clipboard
Open Preview, CMD+N for "New From Clipboard"
Resize if needed, copy, paste into forum. Boom. You're a pro.
Also, Grab is pretty handy. Add 'em to the dock!
😂 Yeah I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to computers. I hardly ever touch that thing..I still use an Android phone. I'll see if I can follow your instructions and post like a "pro" next time. That friggin Mac frustrates me more times than not
hehe, yeah, macOS can be a bit counterintuitive for some things. In other areas, it excels.
Nothin' wrong with an Android phone!
They're all just tools. I like them each for their strengths or app availability, be it Mac, PC, Android or iPhone. But yeah, Mac stuff is one of those things where you gotta use it regularly for it to stick with ya, esp if you're using to Windows. You can do a lot with keyboard shortcuts, and there are some good resources out there for getting a list. I used to use one of mine for work and ran VMware Fusion on it so I could run Windows VMs; best of both worlds.
I still prefer Windows for photo editing workflows. I also don't like the Mac Finder file management utility. It's probably better on the newest versions of macOS, but navigating and some processes on earlier versions were just dumb compared to Windows File Explorer.
One thing that helps when working on notes and saving information and such is a program called Evernote. You can capture all kinds of content for organization and searching later.
I disabled signatures. -
This is a good point. Sometimes it's easy to become hyper-sensitized, so a break is good.I really shouldn't complain, in all honesty the speakers sound pretty good. I'll put all the anxiety and critical listening aside and just enjoy these for a little while.
If something seems off, though, don't ignore it if you have a return window to consider. I did spend a lot of time and money on my first set of speakers trying to make them work, but they just weren't the right fit, and weren't really made for music.
Curious - do you have another space or another orientation in that room that you can try temporarily? Just to see if you get a different response?
I'm interested to see how things work out with your adjustments options. I don't have any experience here.I disabled signatures. -
How was this measured? Pinknoise .....whitenoise? What was the location of the mic? Was it a gated response? Hard to measure the lows in a room accurately. I've noticed from reading reviews that they generally close mic each low frequency drive including the port and do a composite summation response from that. Some of those peaks could be the effect of standing waves and seems reminiscent of what I read in an article on standing waves mitigation in a DIY speaker. Or they could very well be room effects. https://audiojudgement.com/internal-standing-waves/
FWIW this is what James at Audioholics measured with a "ground plane" measurement with the speaker on it's side outdoors. In a typical room you should get better bass extension according to them:
Post edited by Gardenstater onGeorge / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
Glad to hear you are going to give them some time. I think giving them a good break in period is a good idea as well. I recall @nooshinjohn mentioning that his L800s needed some time to open up.
It will be interesting to see if Dirac throws a phase error if you get around to it. I have consistently seen out of phase issues with the 1.2TLs and LSiM 706C on both MCACC and Audyssey AVRs.
____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS, SVS PB13 Ultra X 2, Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Bob Carver Crimson Beauty 350 Tube Mono Blocks, Carver Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400x5, ADCOM GFA 7807, Panasonic UB420, Moon 380D DAC, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050 -
Those big drivers can definitely take a couple hundred hours of playing time to really open up and smooth out. They're an usual driver for Polk to use based on other speakers the company has sold over many years. But, getting a flat frequency response from a speaker in a room is almost impossible and not really desirable anyway.
Personally I'd ditch the attempts at measuring frequency responses with a microphone and just figure out the best position for the speakers (distance from boundaries and toe-in) in the space available in the room based on how they sound at the main listening spot by ear.
It could also be a case of not liking how the speakers sound in the room. Nothing wrong with coming to that conclusion. -
I think everyone that chimed in brought up good points and things to consider. From positioning, to giving the woofers plenty of hours of break in, to trying the speakers in one of my more conventional rooms.
As far as measuring the tests I did were just to get an idea of what was going on. All were done at listening position with the results showing FR and reflections. REW can give you a lot of different information, like a lot, and I'm trying to learn and understand more of what it can tell you. One of the things is phase like @dpowell mentioned, but I honestly haven't figured out how to read or comprehend what the graphs show. But I like that I can get an idea of what's happening sound wise in my room, and I do find REW very useful for sub integration.
What @Emlyn said I agree with as well. Flat
frequency response is not something most would
like. Comes off as very forward and fatiguing to my ears. I can never find a target curve that I really like
and it always sounds different with different speakers in my opinion..i usually end up adjusting things to what sounds best to my ears anyway. -
The speakers are by far the most important part of a stereo system. Some people like large floorstander box speakers and some prefer accurate two way monitor speakers on stands, some like open baffle speakers, some like speakers with subwoofers and some hate them, some like horns and some hate them, some like SDA and some don't, some like planar speakers, etc, etc.
The speakers really have to be matched with the listening space, the other gear in a system, and what the owner prefers. Sometimes speakers don't work well in the space available for a system. If the speakers don't gel in that environment I'd send them back or sell them and move on. It's an unfortunate fact these days that so many people can't hear speakers first before they buy them unless they're spending the big bucks at a brick and mortar dealer.
