Polk R700 Polarity & other issues
Comments
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@HalfOhm Well it looks like you've solved it!
The 50Hz sounding weak is not at all unusual: https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/product/home-speakers/floor-standing/reserve-r700/300035.html
-3db down to 65Hz, with overall down to 45Hz.
Cross your subwoofer at 80Hz (I highly recommend 80Hz, from personal experience). -
^^ The specs on that page link is really for a compact center channel speaker and is a misprint. Unfortunately the Polk website isn't always correct. The real -3dB level on the R700s is 38Hz. For a speaker that size it could be better but 38Hz is respectable performance.
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Thank you for the correction. Went back and looked.... YUP. Specs for the R300 specifically.
The R700 is indeed 38Hz, great job with the website, Polk.
I'd still cross the subwoofer at 80Hz, but your 50Hz test could be a crappy one (I.e. YouTube videos and whatnot).
Try a rap song. Mask Off, Humble, 6 Foot 7 Foot. Perhaps not your taste, but if those 3 songs have weak bass on speakers that go down to 38Hz... I don't know what to tell you. -
As a side thought are the 700's on carpet? That will suck some of the clean bass from them. It did on my 600's. I cut some extra wood I have around and placed that under the speakers until I can get the carpet in the house taken out (yet another house project I have to get around to). I don't run HT however, just stereo...Remember, when you're running from something, you're running to something...-me
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Spikes will fix speakers on carpet issues.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
My living room has porcelain tile where the speakers stand. Also the way my living room is there is a portion of the wall that is set back a foot and a half. Where one would put a big entertainment center or whatever..and that's where my 2ch TV and streaming system is. Normally with all my speakers, at least the rear ported ones, that wall creates big room boosts in the bass area. Everything below 90hz gets a boost except I have a suck out at 50hz but then a huge 40hz boost that trails to 30hz then a big drop of. The reason I don't use the Linton's in this room is I have to pull them too far out into the room for a good presentation. They have big rear ports though.
I bought the R700's for 2 reasons, one was because I felt the smaller R200's with a sub gave me a sound and experience that my ears agree with, and the other was that me knowing how my room reacts I really thought I could get rid of the subwoofer with the larger R700. That was the main selling point for me...that I could get away without needing a sub. I would be more than satisfied with getting a frequency response down to or near 30hz for music listening. Maybe I just expected too much from them.
Last night I was using them to watch TV and they did sound pretty good. Nice center image, it didn't seem like anything was coming out of the speakers, and the sounds kinda floated between the speakers and had a perception like it was coming right out of the TV screen. But for music I need more punch, I don't like bass guitar strikes that are quietly hidden behind the rest of the track.
I'll figure it out though. I checked my tracking on the mic I ordered and now it shows 3 days away. I have an Amazon center down the road so I ordered a Dayton phone mic that can be here in a few hours, it's accurate enough to give me an idea of what I'm working with. I basically have 7 PEQ bands on one of my dacs that can help me boost some frequencies, or worst case scenario I have extra amps and I can bi-amp the Polk's...although I'd need a way to adjust the volumes. I searched online and come across a 2 or 3way crossover. Sublime acoustics it was called. I could make something like that work for me. It's like a $500 analog crossover, but after what I've spent on these speakers it might be a little bit before I purchased it but it is an option if I ever wanted to go that route. I'll share my findings after I measure these speakers in my room, then we can see if I'm just some lunatic with hearing issues or I have an actual gripe with these speakers. -
Did you rule out that the woofers are wired out of phase with each other, within each cabinet? That would put a damper on the bass for sure. 9V battery test I described above is the simplest way to check that I can think of.George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
Gardenstater wrote: »Did you rule out that the woofers are wired out of phase with each other, within each cabinet? That would put a damper on the bass for sure. 9V battery test I described above is the simplest way to check that I can think of.
No I didn't, but I didn't see your post before until after I sealed the speaker back up. But I think it's a pretty good idea and something I should be able to do. Once I figured out the best way to get the woofer out it was pretty easy to get in there. -
If the woofers themselves aren't wired out of phase with each other, I really would personally just do a return on them and get new ones.
I could never spend, what is it, CA$3000 on speakers that came with an assembly issue and possibly have a phase issue still? If it's not a simple fix then I'd just return and replace. -
Another thought: You said you switched the polarity of the bottom binding posts. Go through to the speaker you haven't opened yet and check the polarity of the top and bottom posts there. Then, match the other speaker to be the same.
If you reverse the polarity of the bottom binding posts, the woofers would be playing in phase with the tweeter and mid (in theory) but they should be 180 out of phase as it's a 2nd order XO. Your towers might be out of phase AGAIN... -
Thank you for the correction. Went back and looked.... YUP. Specs for the R300 specifically.
The R700 is indeed 38Hz, great job with the website, Polk.
I'd still cross the subwoofer at 80Hz, but your 50Hz test could be a crappy one (I.e. YouTube videos and whatnot).
Try a rap song. Mask Off, Humble, 6 Foot 7 Foot. Perhaps not your taste, but if those 3 songs have weak bass on speakers that go down to 38Hz... I don't know what to tell you.
Good call on the test tracks, I Tidal streamed Lil' Wayne's 6 Foot 7 Foot and the speakers are playing the lower bass notes. Not shaking any walls, the higher octave punches sound a little rubber band
like lol. So it's all there, not overly extended but there. Sounds a little recessed, the bass is not out in front of the music...not like when I switch the sub
on. -
Sounds like bass localization, EXACTLY my issue with my RT3000p until I realized I had soldered a connector on backwards and had to flip the phase switch.
@HalfOhm change those bottom binding posts back around in polarity internally, might fix your issues. I think your mids and highs are in phase but your bass is out of phase. -
Most of the time you will not get bass from speakers like you will from a sub. Different critters. Some of us even with the big boy 1.2 tl speakers ran subs to compliment the deepest notes. It may be something you will need to do as will. Dial in the sub to not draw attention to itself but to just help with the deepest notes.
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I can agree with pitdog here, my RTi70 claimed down to 40Hz -3db and while they definitely go down that far, there's only so much the cabinet can do. Even with the most powerful of songs bass-wise, I had to up the bass knob +10db and turn up the volume really far to get the punch remotely like a sub.
God... I miss when I had my RT800 with both the treble and bass up +10 blasting Muse at ear-damage levels.... fun times lol -
Spikes will fix speakers on carpet issues.
Not when the spikes aren't long enough and the bottom of the port sits on the carpet, spoken of in my review...Remember, when you're running from something, you're running to something...-me -
I do not know "your" circumstances, I will tell you of mine. I too had carpet issues with spikes. Mine was with speaker stand spikes. My HEAVY stands were tapped for 3/8" x 16tpi spikes. there are not a lot of those on the market, the sets that were are not a sharp enough angle. This would not let the spikes pierce the carpet and pad without rising back up and wanting to float even with a 40 lb speaker on top. I bought long grade 8 bolts the correct size and thread and rough ground them with a bench grinder to a sharp angle. I finished on my drill press with a file and finished with a 800 and 1500 wet dry sand paper to a smooth mirror finish. Doing this allowed me to be able to make the spike and thread portion as long as I needed. In the end my 6" bolt became a perfect size to make a very sharp spike with a long sharp angle that raised my stands feet 4" off that carpet so that the spikes easily went completely through carpet and pad to the subfloor and once I stood on the stand feet the spikes were basically nailed into the subfloor, They have absolutely no movement and I got them dialed in perfectly level front to back side to side.
Maybe this could be something you may be able to also do. -
I see what you mean about the port extending down. Are the stock spikes removable? If so, there are tall spikes like these available.
http://adonacorporation.com/tweaks.htmlPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
The R700s apparently have an oddball thread size of M11-1.5
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Of course...Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If the woofers themselves aren't wired out of phase with each other, I really would personally just do a return on them and get new ones.
I could never spend, what is it, CA$3000 on speakers that came with an assembly issue and possibly have a phase issue still? If it's not a simple fix then I'd just return and replace.
With tax it was like $2100 something, but still that's a big audio purchase for me. When I opened the binding posts the top posts had the negative striped wire going to the positive, the bottom post had the negative going to the negative. From inside on the woofer crossover the top woofer was wired with correct polarity, and I'm 99% positive the bottom woofer was wired the same way. I did switch the polarity at the binding posts. Maybe I shouldn't have done that. I'll just assume everything is correct with the mid/tweeter now since it sounds correct. Without the schematic I don't really know what the correct wiring for the woofers are. Polk is treating this information like it's an ancient Chinese secret. I should probably just wire everything back the way it came and try to send the speakers to Polk. I haven't messed with them since that little listening test this morning, I'll take a break from them...til tomorrow -
And yeah I did match the internal wiring on both speakers, I'll reverse the bottom and try again 😂
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Good. Do that and report back. If it still sounds really dull then RMA them
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FWIW I put my R700's on some 20mm limestone pavers. Improved the bass "quality" more than the quantity.
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I was wondering about your room, and this was the only post I found, skimming content. Apologies if I've missed some detail somewhere.
So you get satisfying bass with other speakers, and just speakers, no sub? (I did read that you enjoyed the R200s with sub)
Reason I'm asking is, for what you're describing, I initially wondered whether you were sitting in a null.
My space is like this. Speakers that make tons of bass in other spaces or placement can sound nearly dead in lower frequencies in my main space. The sub I use fills the bottom end. I've noticed this to varying degree with four different pair of more than capable floorstanding speakers.
Without the sub, it's a sensation sort of like a vehicle with retarded timing on full throttle. It's like you can hear it revving, feel like it should be doing more, but just doesn't have the torque it should.My living room has porcelain tile where the speakers stand. Also the way my living room is there is a portion of the wall that is set back a foot and a half. Where one would put a big entertainment center or whatever..and that's where my 2ch TV and streaming system is. Normally with all my speakers, at least the rear ported ones, that wall creates big room boosts in the bass area. Everything below 90hz gets a boost except I have a suck out at 50hz but then a huge 40hz boost that trails to 30hz then a big drop of. The reason I don't use the Linton's in this room is I have to pull them too far out into the room for a good presentation. They have big rear ports though.
I bought the R700's for 2 reasons, one was because I felt the smaller R200's with a sub gave me a sound and experience that my ears agree with, and the other was that me knowing how my room reacts I really thought I could get rid of the subwoofer with the larger R700. That was the main selling point for me...that I could get away without needing a sub. I would be more than satisfied with getting a frequency response down to or near 30hz for music listening. Maybe I just expected too much from them.
Last night I was using them to watch TV and they did sound pretty good. Nice center image, it didn't seem like anything was coming out of the speakers, and the sounds kinda floated between the speakers and had a perception like it was coming right out of the TV screen. But for music I need more punch, I don't like bass guitar strikes that are quietly hidden behind the rest of the track.
I'll figure it out though. I checked my tracking on the mic I ordered and now it shows 3 days away. I have an Amazon center down the road so I ordered a Dayton phone mic that can be here in a few hours, it's accurate enough to give me an idea of what I'm working with. I basically have 7 PEQ bands on one of my dacs that can help me boost some frequencies, or worst case scenario I have extra amps and I can bi-amp the Polk's...although I'd need a way to adjust the volumes. I searched online and come across a 2 or 3way crossover. Sublime acoustics it was called. I could make something like that work for me. It's like a $500 analog crossover, but after what I've spent on these speakers it might be a little bit before I purchased it but it is an option if I ever wanted to go that route. I'll share my findings after I measure these speakers in my room, then we can see if I'm just some lunatic with hearing issues or I have an actual gripe with these speakers.
I disabled signatures. -
@msg I think you made a pretty good description of what's going on sound wise. And I agree, I think my room is having a serious effect on these speakers. I spent an hour or two listening today and pulling them halfway into the room, off to the side, pretty much in areas I could never have them for day to day listening as well as a happy wife.
Moving them around I was able to get better response and acknowledge that maybe my room is effecting them in a bad way. I've had about 3 different pairs of speakers in this room at one time or another, but all of them have been rear ported bookshelves on stands. I've always used a sub with them but I had always gotten decent bass response from the speakers themselves, down to 50, 60hz..which is really good for bookies in my opinion. Actually I had just tried a pair of the new Martin Logan bookshelves but they were sealed, and the bass was non-existent from them. I chalked it up to lame speakers but now it may have been my room..I dk.
So yeah, I think my room is altering the potential of these speakers. My new Umik-1 should arrive tomorrow, if it comes early enough I should be able to run some REW measurements. I got one of those phone mics yesterday but the phone apps turned out to be a pain in the arse. Anyway, I think your theory or thoughts might be what my issue is. Hopefully I'll have something to report tomorrow, and I'll post some pics of my room and the wall that I think may be sucking out some frequency's from the Polk's. Just sounds off, not lively, flat. Thanks for your insights. -
Good. Do that and report back. If it still sounds really dull then RMA them
I felt they sounded better today when I had the polarity reversed. Still a little dull but I'm wondering if where I have the speakers placed is causing some of this. So after trying them wired both ways I think having them reversed sounded more accurate -
Braddles63 wrote: »FWIW I put my R700's on some 20mm limestone pavers. Improved the bass "quality" more than the quantity.
I see you don't use the rubber feet on the limestone..and looks like you have them extended? Have you noticed that this makes a difference? -
Good info.
I'm not an expert at setup or audio science, only recognizing something similar to what I've battled. With the room and placement open for consideration, now I'm thinking it could make perfect sense that this could present as phase cancelation, suspecting driver phase wiring error, experiencing moderate improvements with driver phase changes, but that it's still not quite right sounding?
Curious to see how this shakes out. Seems like a DSP piece might best dial the setup, but I'm outta my element there.
@txcoastal1 - you have some experience here, don't you?
@HalfOhm - I just reread your original post and saw that you had an Arcam with Dirac Live. I've heard great things about this and was just going to mention it. I wonder if its correction capability and loss of that functionality from your system has better revealed the room and placement difficulties?
Did you ever get a chance to run the R700s with the Arcam SA30 and Dirac?
Also, @rooftop59 and @nooshinjohn have Dirac capable front ends, and may be able to weigh in here.Post edited by msg onI disabled signatures. -
Have you ever done a bass crawl around your room?
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Good info.
Also, @rooftop59 and @nooshinjohn have Dirac capable front ends, and may be able to weigh in here.
When I finally get around to setting up my HT, I will let you know...
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
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