Polk R700 Polarity & other issues
Hey everyone, this is my first time posting here. I'll start off by saying I had the R200's for over a year and truly enjoyed them. I recently purchased a pair of R700's mostly due to how much I liked the sound of the R200's but I've run into some issues with them I don't like and I'm wondering what the deal is?
First off my 700's are bass shy. I run them off an Arcam PA240 so they get plenty of power. The bass sounds weak, bass guitar strums are flat sounding and unnoticeable. They woofers look and sound like they are working properly just that the mid and tweeter are much louder.. unbalanced I would call it.
I normally have a microphone and measure all my speakers for setting up but I had purchased an Arcam SA30 which has Dirac so I sold my Umik microphone..about 2 months later the SA30 had amplification issues so I returned to manufacturer and decided to not replace it with another. So I have no real way to gauge what's going on other than by ear. Although a new mic is on the way.
While I was tweaking the PEQ on my RME dac I accidentally hit the Polarity switch in the dac menu. The speakers all of a sudden sounded smoother on the top end. When I switch the Polarity back now I could notice the mid and tweeter sounded a hair more distorted. I wouldn't have noticed this slight distortion without switching that Polarity button. I checked all the wiring and it was correct, I played a Speaker Testing track and checked for Polarity. Sure enough my speakers were out of phase. So then I hooked my speaker cables to the top binding post (using the supplied Polk metal jumpers) and tested the speakers and now they played in phase and smooth on the top end. Using the bottom posts the speakers play out of phase, top posts and all good.
I tried reversing the wires to the bottom posts but the bass is still weak, I couldn't really tell a difference no matter which way I wired the bottom posts. I tried taking the jumpers off and using true bi-wire cables with no better results. They sound best being regular shotgun wired to top posts.
I emailed Polk and asked them about the woofers being wired out of phase, I know they have made speakers in the past that were wired this way off the crossover. Polk replied that yes they use a 2nd order crossover and the woofers should be playing out of phase to the mid/tweeter. They would not provide me a copy of the R700 crossover. So my question is, has anyone noticed or have had the issues I did when wiring to the bottom binding posts on the R700? Anyone have any insight on opinions on the issues I've encountered with these speakers? Thank you
First off my 700's are bass shy. I run them off an Arcam PA240 so they get plenty of power. The bass sounds weak, bass guitar strums are flat sounding and unnoticeable. They woofers look and sound like they are working properly just that the mid and tweeter are much louder.. unbalanced I would call it.
I normally have a microphone and measure all my speakers for setting up but I had purchased an Arcam SA30 which has Dirac so I sold my Umik microphone..about 2 months later the SA30 had amplification issues so I returned to manufacturer and decided to not replace it with another. So I have no real way to gauge what's going on other than by ear. Although a new mic is on the way.
While I was tweaking the PEQ on my RME dac I accidentally hit the Polarity switch in the dac menu. The speakers all of a sudden sounded smoother on the top end. When I switch the Polarity back now I could notice the mid and tweeter sounded a hair more distorted. I wouldn't have noticed this slight distortion without switching that Polarity button. I checked all the wiring and it was correct, I played a Speaker Testing track and checked for Polarity. Sure enough my speakers were out of phase. So then I hooked my speaker cables to the top binding post (using the supplied Polk metal jumpers) and tested the speakers and now they played in phase and smooth on the top end. Using the bottom posts the speakers play out of phase, top posts and all good.
I tried reversing the wires to the bottom posts but the bass is still weak, I couldn't really tell a difference no matter which way I wired the bottom posts. I tried taking the jumpers off and using true bi-wire cables with no better results. They sound best being regular shotgun wired to top posts.
I emailed Polk and asked them about the woofers being wired out of phase, I know they have made speakers in the past that were wired this way off the crossover. Polk replied that yes they use a 2nd order crossover and the woofers should be playing out of phase to the mid/tweeter. They would not provide me a copy of the R700 crossover. So my question is, has anyone noticed or have had the issues I did when wiring to the bottom binding posts on the R700? Anyone have any insight on opinions on the issues I've encountered with these speakers? Thank you
Comments
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Welcome to Club Polk.
No experience with those speakers, but from what I've read from others you definitely have an issue, which sounds like a wiring issue.
I suggest you trace the wiring from the binding posts to the crossover and from the crossover to the drivers.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thank you for taking the time to reply and welcoming me. I think your advice is what I will have to do. These speakers are quite monstrous in size and I would hate to have to ship them anywhere. Hopefully getting them to sound correct is as easy as rerouting a couple wires but I am a little agitated I have to deal with this from a pair of new speakers. Not cool at all. Maybe later today I'll open the binding posts plate first, then see if I need to take the woofer out to really get in there for a look around.
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Does it make sense to return them for another set? I assume both speakers are out of phase on the bottom?
I have ran across this issue with other brand speakers, higher end models and when I pointed it out, I had a meeting with the companies top engineer. I complained about a few of their lines and he wanted to know what I was thinking.
Anyway, I would absolutely push for a new pair, You shouldn't have to fix your new speakers.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
True that. You may void the warranty in doing so.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Does it make sense to return them for another set? I assume both speakers are out of phase on the bottom?
I have ran across this issue with other brand speakers, higher end models and when I pointed it out, I had a meeting with the companies top engineer. I complained about a few of their lines and he wanted to know what I was thinking.
Anyway, I would absolutely push for a new pair, You shouldn't have to fix your new speakers.
Yeah both speakers are out of phase on the bottom posts and yes I think I would deal with the inconvenience of repacking these 80lb's a piece monstrosities for a fresh pair.
If I could deal with Sound United or Polk maybe the process wouldn't be too difficult, but I did buy them online from a company called Brandsmart USA (which I'd never heard of). I mention this because I have had absolutely no luck speaking to a human or getting any return calls from leaving messages. Only after doing some research on the company After I purchased the speakers I found they are known for having terrible to no customer support, as well as shady warranty practices. They were the only place that had the Polk's in stock at the time so I jumped on them without doing any research. I should add though that the online sale and delivery went smoothly. Just seems that you're on your own after that. -
Are they an actual Polk Audio dealer?Does it make sense to return them for another set? I assume both speakers are out of phase on the bottom?
I have ran across this issue with other brand speakers, higher end models and when I pointed it out, I had a meeting with the companies top engineer. I complained about a few of their lines and he wanted to know what I was thinking.
Anyway, I would absolutely push for a new pair, You shouldn't have to fix your new speakers.
Yeah both speakers are out of phase on the bottom posts and yes I think I would deal with the inconvenience of repacking these 80lb's a piece monstrosities for a fresh pair.
If I could deal with Sound United or Polk maybe the process wouldn't be too difficult, but I did buy them online from a company called Brandsmart USA (which I'd never heard of). I mention this because I have had absolutely no luck speaking to a human or getting any return calls from leaving messages. Only after doing some research on the company After I purchased the speakers I found they are known for having terrible to no customer support, as well as shady warranty practices. They were the only place that had the Polk's in stock at the time so I jumped on them without doing any research. I should add though that the online sale and delivery went smoothly. Just seems that you're on your own after that.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
It sounds to me like the internal wiring is out of phase, but as always, have your quadruple checked your connections? Your wiring very well may be messed up somewhere.
Also, when you have the R700 wired with the top posts, do you find you can localize the highs and mids? For instance, a voice that normally appears in the center in a song can be heard from the left and right distinctively.
I really do think it's your connection at fault. I also find it odd how reversing the wires on the bottom posts doesn't do anything. It shouldn't matter at all if the wires are plugged into the top or bottom binding posts, as you're using jumpers. -
That is an excellent question, let me see what I can find
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@SeleniumFalcon have we discussed this once before? I thought we had.
I seem to remember another member who had this issue.
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^^^ Ok, I’m not going crazy. Thought the same thing.
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
It sounds to me like the internal wiring is out of phase, but as always, have your quadruple checked your connections? Your wiring very well may be messed up somewhere.
Also, when you have the R700 wired with the top posts, do you find you can localize the highs and mids? For instance, a voice that normally appears in the center in a song can be heard from the left and right distinctively.
I really do think it's your connection at fault. I also find it odd how reversing the wires on the bottom posts doesn't do anything. It shouldn't matter at all if the wires are plugged into the top or bottom binding posts, as you're using jumpers.
Yes I have checked the external wiring numerous times. I have other speakers I've hooked into the same system, the same way, with no issues. I've tried the R700's with 3 different amps and all the same issues. Not sure exactly what you mean by localizing the mids/highs. Everything gives a strong center image but voices and images will pan across both speakers when the track calls for this.
I agree that it is odd that switching the wires on the bottom posts does not change the effect on the woofers..but it does change the effect on the mids/highs. And while it should not matter if using top or bottom posts there is a difference. One of the reasons I tried a Polarity Test track was so I could say I had confirmation. Speakers out of phase using bottom posts if you know what that sounds like, in phase with a nice center image when wired into the top posts. -
Brandsmart USA is in Miami, when I looked for a retailer on Polk website they did come up..so they must be legit Polk dealer
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I understand why one would think my issues are user related..it is an odd one. I will add that I'm in my 50's, have numerous pieces of gear and systems..analog, digital, tubes and solid state. I dabble in tube diy and have built some kits. I'm not mentioning this to come off like some jack butt know it all, cause I'm far from it.
I do understand the importance of internal and external wiring to make sure everything works properly. I also recognize how easy it is for any of us to make little mistakes when setting up, especially cross wiring somewhere up the line. I sometimes obsess over my stereo's so if anyone can relate you can imagine the amount of time and different types of setups I've tried with these speakers.
I knew I was going to have to crack these speakers open to see what's doing, but thought I'd reach out in the Polk Forum to see if anyone else had an
experience like mine, or any good insight. To that I sincerely appreciate and thank everyone of you that has added a comment or question to better
understand my problem or help. -
I think these days as long as the speakers have the serial numbers on them they can be registered for warranty coverage. Getting customer service from some online retailers is a well known issue though. Most of them are set up to move as many boxes as possible not take them back or to, heaven forbid, talk to a customer.
What preamp is being used and is it doing any digital processing or automatic setup? Do the speakers sound different if all processing is turned off? Is a subwoofer involved in the system?
The speakers should also perform properly and as designed if one speaker wire is connected to, for example, a top binding post for positive and a bottom binding post for negative or vice versa. That's usually the way I run speakers with dual binding posts and non-biwired speaker cables. No real reason since it doesn't matter how the speaker cables are connected as long as they're positive to positive and negative to negative from the amp. If there is indeed a disconnect inside both cabinets that would be a warranty repair issue. -
@SeleniumFalcon have we discussed this once before? I thought we had.
I seem to remember another member who had this issue.
I would surely like to see this discussion 😃 -
I think these days as long as the speakers have the serial numbers on them they can be registered for warranty coverage. Getting customer service from some online retailers is a well known issue though. Most of them are set up to move as many boxes as possible not take them back or to, heaven forbid, talk to a customer.
What preamp is being used and is it doing any digital processing or automatic setup? Do the speakers sound different if all processing is turned off? Is a subwoofer involved in the system?
The speakers should also perform properly and as designed if one speaker wire is connected to, for example, a top binding post for positive and a bottom binding post for negative or vice versa. That's usually the way I run speakers with dual binding posts and non-biwired speaker cables. No real reason since it doesn't matter how the speaker cables are connected as long as they're positive to positive and negative to negative from the amp. If there is indeed a disconnect inside both cabinets that would be a warranty repair issue.
I think your description of certain online retailers is spot on. I am familiar with your preference of wiring to the binding posts, in a way it makes good sense so I have no issues with it. I have tried wiring this way also, as well as cross wiring the top to bottom in my search of better bass thru these speakers. I have tried the Polk's running with and without a sub. The sub I was using is an SVSpro model so all of its cutoffs and DSP are done internally and thru and thru an amp. I have not tried any dsp or AVR type set-ups.
So yes this should be a warranty repair issue, although I might just take a pick inside. I came across a couple reviews on these speakers where complaints were made that when they were running Audyssee or whatever it's called on their AVR's they were getting a polarity warning and couldn't set up their speakers properly. -
Thru an email Polk mentioned I should take a woofer out and test it on its own as far as my low bass issue. Maybe it's not a low bass issue and I was just expecting more, but I definitely have a wiring issue. I will double check with them if doing this will void any warranty, if not I will take some pics inside the enclosure and wiring and post them to share
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I came across a couple reviews on these speakers where complaints were made that when they were running Audyssee or whatever it's called on their AVR's they were getting a polarity warning and couldn't set up their speakers properly.
That polarity deal with AVR's is very
common with most, if not all speaker brands. The calibration programs are not infallible, unfortunately too many think they are.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I came across a couple reviews on these speakers where complaints were made that when they were running Audyssee or whatever it's called on their AVR's they were getting a polarity warning and couldn't set up their speakers properly.
That polarity deal with AVR's is very
common with most, if not all speaker brands. The calibration programs are not infallible, unfortunately too many think they are.
Good to know. I haven't run a proper surround processor or AVR in quite some time, and on a personal level I'm unfamiliar with a lot of their issues or drawbacks. Those couple of complaints I read could have nothing to do with the actual speakers then. -
CorrectPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I have a strange theory, is it possible that the woofers themselves are wired out of phase? Like, is the top one 180 degrees out of phase of the other one?
I really am confused though, the top jumpers providing proper bass and the bottom ones not no matter which polarity just doesn't make sense to me, it's definitely gotta be a problem with the speakers, I'd RMA them or at the very least crack them open and see what's up. -
It's in 2nd order crossover. They're out of phase for a reason. We've had this discussion about this issue, I'll be damned if I can find that thread.Polk replied that yes they use a 2nd order crossover and the woofers should be playing out of phase to the mid/tweeter.
This is correct^^^ from Polk, I had thought there was more information to help the OP in the other thread. -
No, I mean that there are 2 woofers, and if they're wired in parallel instead of series perhaps the 2 woofers are out of phase with each other. I know they're supposed to be out of phase with the mid and tweet.
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It's in 2nd order crossover. They're out of phase for a reason. We've had this discussion about this issue, I'll be damned if I can find that thread.Polk replied that yes they use a 2nd order crossover and the woofers should be playing out of phase to the mid/tweeter.
This is correct^^^ from Polk, I had thought there was more information to help the OP in the other thread.
I think this is the thread?
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/197999/l600-polarity-issue/p1
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
That's it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
No, I mean that there are 2 woofers, and if they're wired in parallel instead of series perhaps the 2 woofers are out of phase with each other. I know they're supposed to be out of phase with the mid and tweet.
^This^Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
So I pulled my Linton's out and hooked the Polk's back up this morning, the Polks have been sitting a couple weeks. I was wrong on what I was describing. When I'm wired correctly my speakers are out of phase, no bass, on either binding posts. When I cross the wires on the bottom I'm in phase, no bass. Cross the wires to the top binding posts and the mids/highs sound better, smoother but bass output is the same. When I say I hear these phase issues I can only tell by listening to the mids and highs. I can't really distinguish a difference with the woofers. The volume and clarity seems the same.
I played some test tones and at 50hz I can barely hear anything at all from the woofer. Its vibrating but no output really. 80hz it's a little more faint, 250hz not much better. They should be a bit more audible at 250hz. Woofers don't sound blown or scratchy or feel abnormal when I push on them. Obviously something is wrong with the output of them but I find it odd to be like this on both drivers on both speakers.
So I apologize to everyone about the whole upper and lower binding post thing, I should've wrote everything down while it was happening. I'm sure if I switch the wires internally on the top posts that will correct that issue. Not sure yet about these woofers. Really bummed me out hooking these up and listening again. -
If you don't want to remove trim plates and drivers and crossovers and all that you could try momentarily connecting a 9V battery accross the binding posts. Just for a second or so. See which way all the woofers move when + to + and - to -. Maybe you will find that the woofers are not all moving the same direction. This will work as long as they are typical 2nd Order crossovers without any capacitor in series with the woofers.George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
Can I ask a favor? Could you describe the process you're using to test bass frequencies? Signal generator or test CD? What settings are you using on the amplifier powering the speakers, any high or low pass filtering? Are both speakers playing at the same time?
Thanks! -
SeleniumFalcon wrote: »Can I ask a favor? Could you describe the process you're using to test bass frequencies? Signal generator or test CD? What settings are you using on the amplifier powering the speakers, any high or low pass filtering? Are both speakers playing at the same time?
Thanks!
Sure. So this morning I made a little set up on the living room floor. I took a Cambridge streamer/Bluetooth, hooked it into a RME dac into an Arcam amp. Played tones/signals from phone into the system. I did turn off any EQ, no high or low filters and I can switch between each speaker individually or together.
I opened the binding posts, the top posts polarity was switched the bottom was normal. I reversed both of them as I'm pretty sure the bottom posts should be wired out of phase. I took the top woofer in 1 enclosure out to try and look inside. From glancing inside everything looks to be ok. The way the woofer XO is set up you have W-in positive & negative. Output wires are labeled W1 W2 positive and the W1 W2 negative. Every wire in there to every different speaker is a different color, but it seems like the positive and negative leads are going to the correct speaker terminal. Nothing is reversed coming off the XO to the woofers. I assume it's wired like it should be, I closed it back up.
After fixing the binding posts and streaming some music I would say at least everything sounds like it should, other than the bass sounds like it's rolled off really high. The timing and overall sound is better but they still just sound weak to me. I'm starting to think that this is just what it is. Everyone seemed to rave about the bass on these and I personally don't think it's anything special. Maybe my room is having a big effect on them but I had no issues and was happy with the R200's playing full range with a sub crossed around 55hz in the same room. Maybe my room doesn't like that bottom port on the 700's.
I've read some rumblings on the internet that the older Reserve speakers sound different than the newer ones, which I have no opinion or facts on that but will say my R200's are from Jan 2020 and the R700's manufactured in mid 2022. Although Ive never heard anyone complain about lack of bass with the R700's. I should have a mic tomorrow and if I have the time I'll take some REW measurements and see if it correlates with what I'm not hearing.
