Becoming a Believer

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

odcics2 wrote: »

Why a personal attack??
You don't agree with his research, so be it.
Did you read it all or just dismiss it?

Read it many years ago, it was BS then and it's BS now. The guy is among other things a hypocrite.

That was no personal attack.

Bingo. That stupid article has made the rounds for years, to justify those who refuse to invest in all parts of their system.

An Audio system is a collection of parts, and every part matters. Some to a greater degree than others, but still all matter. I usually have found over the years, that many who make such claims have no idea how to even compare cables, or they want to hear differences between 5 different brands of sub 100 buck cables.

Part of being an audio nut, is the relentless pursuit of knowledge in this hobby of ours. Much of that comes with trial and error, and getting your ears on as much as possible as we all differ in our preferences and even our ability to actually hear. Once you close your mind to experiencing things, or digesting something new to you, you might as well sell your gear and go back to your Bose speakers and 200 buck receiver from Bestbuy.

It costs nothing....nothing....did I say "nothing" ?, to make friends in this audio world, get over to some others homes for a listen, attend some audio shows, even find a local shop for demos. Don't just scratch the surface of a topic and declare an 11th commandment.

TEAforONE

tonyb wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

odcics2 wrote: »

Why a personal attack??
You don't agree with his research, so be it.
Did you read it all or just dismiss it?

Read it many years ago, it was BS then and it's BS now. The guy is among other things a hypocrite.

That was no personal attack.

Bingo. That stupid article has made the rounds for years, to justify those who refuse to invest in all parts of their system.

An Audio system is a collection of parts, and every part matters. Some to a greater degree than others, but still all matter. I usually have found over the years, that many who make such claims have no idea how to even compare cables, or they want to hear differences between 5 different brands of sub 100 buck cables.

Part of being an audio nut, is the relentless pursuit of knowledge in this hobby of ours. Much of that comes with trial and error, and getting your ears on as much as possible as we all differ in our preferences and even our ability to actually hear. Once you close your mind to experiencing things, or digesting something new to you, you might as well sell your gear and go back to your Bose speakers and 200 buck receiver from Bestbuy.

It costs nothing....nothing....did I say "nothing" ?, to make friends in this audio world, get over to some others homes for a listen, attend some audio shows, even find a local shop for demos. Don't just scratch the surface of a topic and declare an 11th commandment.

Very well put. I'd like to add something,but there is nothing I could possibly add. You nailed it down. This is the truth.

tophatjohnny

skrol wrote: »

Ok I decided to upgrade to heavier gauge gold plated.

Those are f’ing beautiful !

nooshinjohn

The first little known fact is RR , despite his open distain for high quality audio cables making any impact whatsoever on sound quality, chose to use some very expensive wires in the speakers he designed and built... Hypocrite point #1. To add insult to injury, when asked if he changed his mind on cables, he said no, but that people would not take his speakers seriously unless he used the much more expensive wires.

skrol

I tend to be skeptical about things like cables, and DACs, and power conditioners and capacitors and other snake oils. In my education and profession, I am an electrical engineer and some of these things don't make enough technical sense to convince me. The differences don't seem to be measurable. I have read articles justifying and trying to explain the science but much seems far fetched. The thing is, you can find research and experiments to rationalize either point of view. When it comes down to it, I have found improvements in the sound quality in improved equipment that I hadn't expected or was even looking for. When you start with lowly equipment it is easy to find gains. There must be something to this stuff but I can't help but feel that at some point there is an law of diminishing returns. How far does it go before the cost out weighs the benefit? That is a rabbit hole that I can't afford to chase down, or perhaps my sensible wife won't let me chase down. Budget is thin for such luxuries when you have a family of seven.

I seem to have a knack for finding some pretty good stuff for cheap, which is good for a tight-wad polak like me. Often it needs a little repair but that is all part of my fun. You can see my main system in my signature block. No lie, in total it cost me less than $1000. The most expensive audio equipment that I have ever purchased was the RTA-11TLs that are now in my HT system that I bought new in 1990 on clearance $800/pair. I have stacks of equipment that I have acquired and/or repaired over the years that I should sell to fund furthering my audio exploration. Hopefully, you'll probably see it listed here one day. Most of it was acquired to satisfy my curiosity, some because I couldn't stand to see it go to waste, and some were too good a deal to pass up. I'll dabble in the higher end as opportunity presents it and my limited budget allows and discover its merits along the way. That is all part of how I enjoy the hobby and the music. Perhaps that makes me more of an audio enthusiast than a true audiophile.
I'm ok with that.

nooshinjohn

skrol wrote: »

Perhaps that makes me more of an audio enthusiast than a true audiophile.
I'm ok with that.

With all the swapping and horse-trading I have done, I have less than 15k out of pocket in my rig. I consider guys that chase the dream on a budget to be the true audiophiles. There are those that are ok with a set of earbuds and an I-phone dock of some kind. Those are the the budding enthusiast, Audiophiles are what most of the guys here have become from humble beginnings. Then there are the audiofools, who make their purchase decisions not on reasoned thought or experience, but rather on the notion that if it costs more than a house, it's got to be the best....

I love being an audiophile, an being surrounded by others that share the same passion and different ideas on how to get there.

gp4jesus

My $.02…. Blue Jeans 10 gauge w/lugs he attaches for you. I use them for my mids. Very inexpensive.

Will maximize conductivity because of increased surface area among other things. About 1/8 the resistance of your current connections.

Meanwhile bask in what you have. I have 7 in my house too so I understand the family factor not to mention the Retired factor.

Tony

odcics2

How many guys here have had their hearing checked and the response graphed?
Personally, my hearing is weak above 12K. (65 years old - too many concerts)
Also, I have some genetic loss in the midrange, according to my doctor, in the area of female voices.
(maybe a blessing?? lol!)

My point is that one should get their hearing mapped out.

At a minimum, you will have a good baseline to help judge changes in your system...

Milito

I'm in the same boat of some of the above as I'll never be able to spend the money some of you spend on your equipment as I have other hobbies that I also spend my money on and there is only so much to go around when you are retired.

I also wonder with my hearing not being that great even with hearing aids should I keep chasing a better "sound" from my system? As of right now I can still tell a difference in changing speaker cables and some other cables in my system, but will I be able to 5-10 years from now? I sure hope so if I live that long.

I wish I had the knowledge that a lot of you have about different audio equipment so I would know what the next step should be to add to my system within the limited budget I have to work with. I would also join more in discussions about different audio equipment and experiences people have in this hobby. However, I also still enjoy the forums here and reading about the different equipment and experiences people have in this hobby and the other hobbies people are in to.

Emlyn

I think there's a common misconception that high frequency hearing loss as a result of age or exposure to loud noise over extended periods of time means someone can't enjoy music or hear differences in equipment or cables because they can't hear frequencies at 18 kHz anymore. There are some instruments such as cymbals that have some musical energy above 10 kHz, but almost all important music information is in the midrange and lower. Audio gear and cables need to get the sound right across the spectrum. They're not designed to focus on very high frequencies alone.

I think it's still important to get hearing checked once in a while to see if hearing aids would help someone but that's more for safety and being able to hear conversations through background noise.

I do feel sorry for people who've been blasting sound into their ears through earbuds though. Those devices are awful for hearing health.

pitdogg2

I can't understand a thing you said, please talk lower....

🤣🤣

odcics2

Ever wonder why the lower notes of a piano sound rich and the highest sound like “tink-tink”?

Harmonics are missing from the upper notes.
A 4k note has one harmonic at 8k and the next at 16k is inaudible to most.

At least that’s what I’ve heard! 😂

lightman1

skrol wrote: »

Ok I decided to upgrade to heavier gauge gold plated.

I have those patented already, Stan. You'll be hearing from my attorneys....

delkal

Polkitup2 wrote: »

The guy in the video is an idiot. He belongs with those knuckleheads on ASR forum who believe your ears are not a reliable indicator of sound quality and that everything that matters in sound quality can be measured by their tests. I browsed through the video and nowhere did I hear him actually talk about what they sound like, just what they measured. As far breaking the banana, he's a rookie.

I give him credit for not saying what they sound like. And what they sound like on his setup is irreverent if he did. We all know cables are system dependent.


But what I found interesting is he was measuring real measurable differences in induction and capacitance (we all know there are differences) but it did not match the Audioquest marketing. They are selling this wire as "low inductance" in their marketing ploy. But his numbers (they are basic measurements so I believe them) shows the Thunderbird cables have more inductance than some zip lines. Does this make the cables sound better in your system? Who knows but marketing a cable as the ultimate in low inductance and having a worse inductance than zip line is BS.

Same for the audioquest DBS system / battery. He was measuring capacitance (I think) and there was a real measurable difference in capacitance when the battery was plugged in and when it wasn't. BUT....he got the exact same readings when the DBS system was plugged in and the batteries were removed. It seems like the DBS wire just acts like an antenna and picks up noise and increases capacitance. When he had them wired the wrong way (closer to the Amp) there was an even bigger increase as expected. Does this improve the sound on your system? Again who knows.

Again, if audioquest cables improve your system to his real measurements is irrelevant. Just enjoy and be glad they do. What I don't like is audioquest is marketing them as something they are not. They know the inductance and what the DBS does or doesn't do.

mantis

delkal wrote: »

Polkitup2 wrote: »

The guy in the video is an idiot. He belongs with those knuckleheads on ASR forum who believe your ears are not a reliable indicator of sound quality and that everything that matters in sound quality can be measured by their tests. I browsed through the video and nowhere did I hear him actually talk about what they sound like, just what they measured. As far breaking the banana, he's a rookie.

I give him credit for not saying what they sound like. And what they sound like on his setup is irreverent if he did. We all know cables are system dependent.


But what I found interesting is he was measuring real measurable differences in induction and capacitance (we all know there are differences) but it did not match the Audioquest marketing. They are selling this wire as "low inductance" in their marketing ploy. But his numbers (they are basic measurements so I believe them) shows the Thunderbird cables have more inductance than some zip lines. Does this make the cables sound better in your system? Who knows but marketing a cable as the ultimate in low inductance and having a worse inductance than zip line is BS.

Same for the audioquest DBS system / battery. He was measuring capacitance (I think) and there was a real measurable difference in capacitance when the battery was plugged in and when it wasn't. BUT....he got the exact same readings when the DBS system was plugged in and the batteries were removed. It seems like the DBS wire just acts like an antenna and picks up noise and increases capacitance. When he had them wired the wrong way (closer to the Amp) there was an even bigger increase as expected. Does this improve the sound on your system? Again who knows.

Again, if audioquest cables improve your system to his real measurements is irrelevant. Just enjoy and be glad they do. What I don't like is audioquest is marketing them as something they are not. They know the inductance and what the DBS does or doesn't do.

All high end cables play this game. Some tune their cables to sound a certain way, and the only way to tune a cable is to cut frequencies. Audioquest does not do this.

I will say Audioquest builds quality cables, I say that from a Installer Perspective. They don't fail and I have been using them since 2004. I can't say that about other brands. They also have a very neutral sound unlike many other cables I have used in the past professionally and personally.

IMO there are only 3 brands of cables I would buy. Kimber Kable , Cardas and Audioquest. Beldon and Liberity make solid cables but I have seen some failures so I rule them out only for reliability. I can put Binary in that box as they have also had some failures. Solid cables for the most part. All other brands to me are crap , worthless pieces of wire that someone decided to tune them to their liking. A cable in your system has 1 job nothing else. That is to pass along the signal from A to B and that's it. If they can manage this great I'm in without picking up inference or filtering out frequencies to make them sound DIFFERENT. Stupid if you ask me. I'm all out. Even Audioquest with their batteries , stupid technology , not needed.

I use audioqest cables not for making my system sound "BETTER". I use them because when I install them into my system, they do exactly what they are supposed to do. Nothing more nothing less.

As a Hobbyist and liking all these fancy cables that are on the market is just fine people, it's out hobby and these cables can look pretty damn badass. BUT just know just about all of them are way over priced, way over engineered and worthless from a performance perspective. Audioquest makes tones of worthless cables at the higher end.

Polkitup2

I have no issues with measurement and in fact invite the additional insight it provides. However, IMHO when you offer a review of a product say a car for example, and you have never driven that car, but rather only measured certain aspects such as horsepower, or 0-60 time, and conclude that the car is a rip off, to me your information is incomplete. He also seemed biased from the start to support his measurement is the only thing that matters mantra. The broken banana plug appeared to give him joy that he had helped uncovered a product of such poor quality, when it is more likely that it was his own incompetence that broke the banana. His review made me cringe.

F1nut

IMO there are only 3 brands of cables I would buy. Kimber Kable , Cardas and Audioquest.

Cardas is one of the most colored cables you can buy.

Emlyn

What kinds of failures occur with Belden cables? HDMI? Or their audio cables? Or is it the connectors that are the failure point?

I thought Belden just makes the cable that may be used for analog or digital audio but it's others that attach the connectors. Usually crimp on connectors.

audioluvr

mantis wrote: »

IMO there are only 3 brands of cables I would buy. Kimber Kable , Cardas and Audioquest. Beldon and Liberity make solid cables but I have seen some failures so I rule them out only for reliability. I can put Binary in that box as they have also had some failures. Solid cables for the most part. All other brands to me are crap , worthless pieces of wire...

invalid

Cardas is one of the most colored cables you can buy.


Every review I've read about cards cable says the are warm, which is definitely a coloration.

Clipdat

...

F1nut

invalid wrote: »

Cardas is one of the most colored cables you can buy.


Every review I've read about cards cable says the are warm, which is definitely a coloration.

Very warm, IME.

muncybob

VR3 wrote: »

Supra quadrax, raw per ft is easily one of the best cables on the market

I have very little experience with speaker cables/wires but, thanks to a karma from VR3, I doubt I'll be looking for a replacement to the mentioned Supra Quadrax(I have no idea on their cost) connected to my 2Bs.

Emlyn

Looks like the Supra Quadrax is currently about $8.50 a foot on Ebay. Getting a pair of speaker cables that's factory terminated more than doubles the cost. One of their vendors says just use them unterminated anyway. They're made of tinned copper wire so unterminated makes sense even if it is less convenient for making connections than using banana plugs.

jbreezy5

Resurrecting the dead, but tonight I put in an order for Kimber Kable 4PR 2.5m speaker cable pair.

Didn’t get the 8PR due to cost, and I’ve otherwise expressed that I’m generally not a believer in cables making a sonic difference on the condition that certain fundamental design principles are followed.

Still the 4PR is claimed by Kimber Kable to be equivalent to 13 ga. wire, which I figure is reasonably good to deliver the full spectrum of sound. Lower gauge tends to have better bass reproduction, IME.

My Blue Jeans speaker cables are rated 10 gauge, so not exactly fair in that regard, but these are still of significantly lower cost, even terminated with locking bananas, than the Kimber.

One thing the Kimber may have going for it, that is unfair for Blue Jean, is that its a Litz-wire configuration and should have lower and more steady inductance and superior EMI/RFI rejection due to this, as well as, the insulation materials having a lower dielectric constant. This is my main reason for the curiosity.

Will I hear a difference? For $150 I hope so, but we (I) will, uh, let you know my findings…

Emlyn

Don't be surprised if you don't hear a difference in those two cables. Their construction and materials aren't really that different where it matters for a home stereo system.

jbreezy5

@Emlyn - Can you expand on that? What types of construction and materials would make a difference?

Emlyn

There are lots of approaches with speaker cables. Look into the technology used by MIT, Audioquest, Nordost, etc. Also look into materials selection with higher end Kimber products including the termination methods and connectors, insulation, types of metal in the cable itself, time to construct, etc.

Of course some argue that all cables sound the same regardless of materials and construction and someone would have to have miles of cable to measure any audible differences. I don't subscribe to that.

Nothing wrong with Blue Jeans or entry level Kimber products. In my experience they do a very good job. Kimber tends to look better doing it though. I use Kimber Hero and BJC RCA cables interchangeably and have never noted a difference between them in what reaches my ears. The Kimber Hero cables do have locking WBT RCA connectors though which is cool.

I'll also add that I really do believe someone can have an outstanding audio experience while only using "generic" or low cost cables as long as they pass a signal cleanly.

VR3

Emlyn wrote: »

Looks like the Supra Quadrax is currently about $8.50 a foot on Ebay. Getting a pair of speaker cables that's factory terminated more than doubles the cost. One of their vendors says just use them unterminated anyway. They're made of tinned copper wire so unterminated makes sense even if it is less convenient for making connections than using banana plugs.

Unterminated is the way to go

Emlyn

I've been really impressed with balanced cables from a company that does business on Amazon as "Worlds Best Cables." Very similar in concept and price to BJC except they use Mogami wire in addition to Neutrik XLR connectors. I was getting a significant amount of hiss with my new turntable but once I put a pair of their cables in place of formerly expensive PS Audio cables from the phono preamp to the preamp the hiss is virtually gone. I also use a bunch of them in my home theater.

I wouldn't call them Best. They're more like Worlds Most Adequate Cables.