Becoming a Believer

skrol

I've had an issue with my LSi15 where I just couldn't get the bass to sound right. They have the DB840 upgraded subwoofers. Some of it was placement but I think I found another cause, speaker wires. I am ashamed to admit that I have been using basically 16 AWG zip-cord for the 35 feet run. I had been wanting to get some Bluejeans 12 or 10AWG but this is what I had. That length cable can get expensive for something decent.

I recently relocated my main amp, Parasound HCA-1000A to the basement so that the ambient temperature would be lower (I can potentially bias higher as instructed by John Curl) and get the amp a little closer to the speakers. I was able to cut the distance to 25 feet, which meant that the 50 feet of AudioQuest 14AWG cable that I had tucked away would now be long enough. This is still fairly low budget cable. I still wouldn't mind going with a thicker gauge wire for this length.

Low and behold, the bass was no longer flabby. The speakers sound so much more together, transitioning through the frequency range. Mostly the bass is much cleaner. I know that the speaker cable resistance has an impact on damping factor. Is it just the thickness of the cable? Or is there something to the AudioQuest cable design?

F1nut

Stan, adequate gauge is a factor, but the metal(s), geometry and even the dielectric make a difference.

skrol

The difference was much more than I was expecting and should have done this years ago. My question now is, would I hear even more improvement going with the Belden 12 or 10 or Canare 4S11 (paralleled to 11 AWG)?

F1nut

I got away from considering speaker cables by the gauge a very long time ago. I'd suggest looking for reviews mentioning the sound characteristics of whatever cable you're considering.

TEAforONE

Welcome to the “believer” club! Some don’t believe,that’s fine. I think maybe both groups can coexist.

Emlyn

I have a few sets of the Blue Jeans Cable speaker cables based on the Belden 5T00UP cable, aka "Ten White." They have virtually no characteristic of their own that I can tell. Pure signal flow. The easy to use and strong locking banana connectors on these are excellent for making sure speaker cables never pull loose from speakers or amps and are especially good for use with AV receivers that have speaker bindings posts close together.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N6DL8UU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

VR3

Supra quadrax, raw per ft is easily one of the best cables on the market

skrol

Most folks seem to have rather shorts length of speaker cable (i.e. 8ft). For short runs, I can see where the cable design may trump the thickness of the cable. I wonder if that is true for longer runs like 25ft or more? No matter which, all cables have ohms, capacitance and inductance per unit length. Differences in the rate that these three components of the impedance increase over length would become more apparent over longer lengths. Does the resistance become more a factor than the reactance?

I may have to start looking at cable specs and how these components change relative to each other over length. Then, what does it mean for sound.

In the end, I have a very limited budget and I will likely stick with what I got or maybe some modest upgrade. But is may be a good mind (and PSpice) exercise.

jbreezy5

Emlyn wrote: »

I have a few sets of the Blue Jeans Cable speaker cables based on the Belden 5T00UP cable, aka "Ten White." They have virtually no characteristic of their own that I can tell. Pure signal flow. The easy to use and strong locking banana connectors on these are excellent for making sure speaker cables never pull loose from speakers or amps and are especially good for use with AV receivers that have speaker bindings posts close together.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N6DL8UU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

^^^^^This^^^^^

mantis

Audioquest builds all of their cables correctly. They also don't COLOR the sound. They just pass the signals along without changing anything. Cables the TUNE the sound are just colored cables that restrict frequencies from passing correctly and IMO ruining the sound not improving it. Run from these crappy trash designs.

The Reason for your improvements is Gauge and length. The Quality of the Copper, and overall construction all play a very small roll. Length and correct gauge plays a way high roll in signal transfer. It's just physics.

I don't think spending tons more money on high end speaker wire especially if it's from one of those brands who color the sound , will be any improvement, I think they all ruin the sound.
You can buy higher end Audioquest speaker wires but the improvement will be small as you go up the line and then it will top out and then you will be just wasting your money if performance is your goal, you just get nicer cooler named wire after that point.

jbreezy5

skrol wrote: »

The difference was much more than I was expecting and should have done this years ago. My question now is, would I hear even more improvement going with the Belden 12 or 10 or Canare 4S11 (paralleled to 11 AWG)?

I would highly recommend you check out the below video; it may save you thousands of dollars, allowing you to buy more music or better equipment/speakers on your audiophile journey.

I do not necessarily agree with all things by this gentleman, but I’m thoroughly convinced by him when it comes to cables, due to his background.

Also watch the video at 1.5x speed to get through faster.

https://youtu.be/KzwAdwvy9l4

FYI, I have been using Blue Jeans Cables 5T00UP with locking bananas for years, and love them (I went with the gray outer jacket version). Same with using their interconnects and optical cables.

I have alternatively used Philips PXT1000 interconnects also, which are very well designed, and more flexible than the Blue Jean Cable interconnects.

Aside from resistance, inductance, and capacitance (importance of measurement is in that order, btw), is the jacketing material of cables. For example, GR Research has demonstrated how some cables act as an antenna (cables that have jacketing with a high dielectric constant, such as PVC).

Other cables act as a filter using jacketing with a low dielectric constant, such as teflon (as found on Litz-wire configurations - think Kimber Kable), PE, and foam PE (which the affordable Philips PXT1000 interconnects have foam PE insulation!). You can find GR Research videos on Youtube also.

So your major points with cables are: Resistance (low), Inductance (low), and capacitance (low), RFI/EMI rejection as benefited by low dielectric constant jacketing materials. High purity, low gauge 10 or 12 AWG, stranded silver and/or copper wire (the best conductors of electricity).

Just remember, cables are the simplest part of the entire audio signal, if they are negatively impacting sound quality, it is likely due to poor conductor materials, poor measurements of R/L/C, or RFI/EMI.

One doesn’t have to spend a fortune on these to get great sound.

Gardenstater

Stan try Alpha Core Goertz. It matches the impedance of the cable more closely to the loudspeaker. They are ultra low inductance. I make them myself and it is difficult at first but you can save a bundle. They are not overly expensive from the company that purchased the patent and took over manufacturing. I make mine with thinner but wider copper of a better purity. Here's the patent if you are interested:

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=5393933A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19950228&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

audioluvr

If you try $10,000 speaker cables on a $299 40 year old AVR with $50 speakers you probably won't hear a difference. The purity of the signal upstream is 90% of how speakers will sound. Cable purity probably only accounts for 10% but that 10 % can be huge if you are searching for that heavenly 100%. It's kinda like the difference between seeing the sky getting dark from a near solar eclipse and seeing the epic god like blackness of the sun disappearing, getting goosebumps from the cold, seeing your own breath and the scream of everyone around you.

F1nut

mantis wrote: »

Audioquest builds all of their cables correctly. They also don't COLOR the sound. They just pass the signals along without changing anything. Cables the TUNE the sound are just colored cables that restrict frequencies from passing correctly and IMO ruining the sound not improving it. Run from these crappy trash designs.

The Reason for your improvements is Gauge and length. The Quality of the Copper, and overall construction all play a very small roll. Length and correct gauge plays a way high roll in signal transfer. It's just physics.

I don't think spending tons more money on high end speaker wire especially if it's from one of those brands who color the sound , will be any improvement, I think they all ruin the sound.
You can buy higher end Audioquest speaker wires but the improvement will be small as you go up the line and then it will top out and then you will be just wasting your money if performance is your goal, you just get nicer cooler named wire after that point.

One huge problem with your thoughts on the matter. Audioquest wouldn't make a boatload of different models if the different cable models didn't color and tune the sound to one degree or the other. HELLO!

mantis

F1nut wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

Audioquest builds all of their cables correctly. They also don't COLOR the sound. They just pass the signals along without changing anything. Cables the TUNE the sound are just colored cables that restrict frequencies from passing correctly and IMO ruining the sound not improving it. Run from these crappy trash designs.

The Reason for your improvements is Gauge and length. The Quality of the Copper, and overall construction all play a very small roll. Length and correct gauge plays a way high roll in signal transfer. It's just physics.

I don't think spending tons more money on high end speaker wire especially if it's from one of those brands who color the sound , will be any improvement, I think they all ruin the sound.
You can buy higher end Audioquest speaker wires but the improvement will be small as you go up the line and then it will top out and then you will be just wasting your money if performance is your goal, you just get nicer cooler named wire after that point.

One huge problem with your thoughts on the matter. Audioquest wouldn't make a boatload of different models if the different cable models didn't color and tune the sound to one degree or the other. HELLO!

They make a boat load of different models because they can sell all those different level cables to people willing to spend the money on them. They perfected the signal transfer much earlier in their lines and kept going to not sonically improve but to visually improve. Then they make up those wild stories and cool names ( they have some of the coolest names in the business ) to make people want them.
The DBS system is a load of crap and absolutely does nothing to improve anything. I use audioquest cables because they do make good quality cables . I however will not spend money on any DBS system cables. I have tired so many and they do nothing.
I'd much rather spend my money on better speakers , room treatments or nicer equipment. Not waste it on going up the ladder of cables and not hearing sonic benefits.

F1nut

mantis wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

Audioquest builds all of their cables correctly. They also don't COLOR the sound. They just pass the signals along without changing anything. Cables the TUNE the sound are just colored cables that restrict frequencies from passing correctly and IMO ruining the sound not improving it. Run from these crappy trash designs.

The Reason for your improvements is Gauge and length. The Quality of the Copper, and overall construction all play a very small roll. Length and correct gauge plays a way high roll in signal transfer. It's just physics.

I don't think spending tons more money on high end speaker wire especially if it's from one of those brands who color the sound , will be any improvement, I think they all ruin the sound.
You can buy higher end Audioquest speaker wires but the improvement will be small as you go up the line and then it will top out and then you will be just wasting your money if performance is your goal, you just get nicer cooler named wire after that point.

One huge problem with your thoughts on the matter. Audioquest wouldn't make a boatload of different models if the different cable models didn't color and tune the sound to one degree or the other. HELLO!

They make a boat load of different models because they can sell all those different level cables to people willing to spend the money on them. They perfected the signal transfer much earlier in their lines and kept going to not sonically improve but to visually improve. Then they make up those wild stories and cool names ( they have some of the coolest names in the business ) to make people want them.
The DBS system is a load of crap and absolutely does nothing to improve anything. I use audioquest cables because they do make good quality cables . I however will not spend money on any DBS system cables. I have tired so many and they do nothing.
I'd much rather spend my money on better speakers , room treatments or nicer equipment. Not waste it on going up the ladder of cables and not hearing sonic benefits.

Just wow!!!

Polkitup2

I just replaced my Audioquest Robinhood speakers cables with Thunderbirds. I can tell you the Thunderbirds provide a significant improvement in bass response and just overall sound better to me than the Robinhoods did in my system. Both cables use the same metal and technologies but have different geometry and gauge. According to their website , "While the Mythical Creatures are all-out assaults on the state of the cable art, the Folk Heroes use all of the same technology with fewer conductors".

Is the Thunderbird new price worth the additional price compared to the Robinhood? For me I would say no but since I got a good deal on mine used I am happy worth what I paid and what I got in increased performance. The performance of the Thunderbird is better than the Robinhoods.

The guy in the video is an idiot. He belongs with those knuckleheads on ASR forum who believe your ears are not a reliable indicator of sound quality and that everything that matters in sound quality can be measured by their tests. I browsed through the video and nowhere did I hear him actually talk about what they sound like, just what they measured. As far breaking the banana, he's a rookie.

nooshinjohn

I run all Audioquest in my rig, with a double bi-wire run of Meteor speaker cables and WEL from my preamp to the amp. Everything else is low level Cinnamon XLR. I don't think I need anything else.

skrol

Oookay...I think I'll stay with the AudioQuest cables... I think.?.

audioluvr

25' is a LONG run! I'd be using 10 ga. or better with whatever brand you go with.

odcics2

Interesting information from highly regarded Roger Russell of McIntosh Labs...
He was a wealth of knowledge.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

F1nut

odcics2 wrote: »

Interesting information from highly regarded Woger Wussell of McIntosh Labs...
He was a wealth of knowledge.
(Link removed on purpose)

He was an idiot and if you buy what he sold, then you are too.

odcics2

Why a personal attack??
You don't agree with his research, so be it.
Did you read it all or just dismiss it?

audioluvr

odcics2 wrote: »

Interesting information from highly regarded Woger Wussell of McIntosh Labs...
He was a wealth of knowledge.

Damn it! You mean this whole time I could have got away with 22ga. Speaker wire???!!!

odcics2 wrote: »

Why a personal attack??
You don't agree with his research, so be it.
Did you read it all or just dismiss it?

I read it. The problem with that article, in regards to speaker wire anyway, is there really is no findings on how it sounds. Mr. W.W. could be tone deaf for all we know. I was once told by an audio tech that amplification is all the same. Just different designs to achieve the same end result. I don't use him any more.

F1nut

odcics2 wrote: »

Why a personal attack??
You don't agree with his research, so be it.
Did you read it all or just dismiss it?

Read it many years ago, it was BS then and it's BS now. The guy is among other things a hypocrite.

That was no personal attack.

odcics2

F1nut wrote: »

odcics2 wrote: »

Why a personal attack??
You don't agree with his research, so be it.
Did you read it all or just dismiss it?

Read it many years ago, it was BS then and it's BS now. The guy is among other things a hypocrite.

That was no personal attack.

Guess that's your opinion.
It was a personal attack against Roger, may he rest in peace...

I took no offence myself. I've been around too long to take internet stuff seriously!

In the past, I have done A-B comparisons with interconnects and speaker wires with buddies.
Briefly, one can spend a lot for no apparent sonic benefit.

To each their own. It keeps folks working and the owners get rich!!

F1nut

Absolutely an attack on him and well deserved. Total hypocrite.

In my solo experiences and those with audio friends the differences in the sound qualities of cables has been bloody obvious.

TEAforONE

Just like,”all pizza tastes the same”?

nooshinjohn

TEAforONE wrote: »

Just like,”all pizza tastes the same”?

I prefer cryogenically treated pizza vs Domino's/pizza hut/papa johns...

skrol

Ok I decided to upgrade to heavier gauge gold plated.

odcics2

F1nut wrote: »

Absolutely an attack on him and well deserved. Total hypocrite.

Can you further explain?