Home Ownership And You!

Jstas

@steveinaz asked for some pictures a little while ago.

Since I'm sitting here with a respiratory thing going on due to what is likely a reaction to a mold allergy (which I have), I was thinking that maybe I could get some photos together. I have been doing tons of work here so I'm not photo dumping. I figured I'd tell stories and post accompanying photos.

Quick background on the property: In May/June of 2017, went looking at houses with Jackie, the better 3/4ths. We found this property that was pretty shabby but, roughly 4 acres of land, has a lake contained completely within the property line. The property is also very old. Boundary lines for the plot were drawn out in, like, 1830. It was a farm back then supporting the town up the street which was a mill at first and then became a paint factory. Prior to that the land space is tied to a royal grant that goes back to when England acquired the settlement of New Sweden from the Swedish and turned it into a "Proprietary Colony of England" called the Province of New Jersey. The land was part of a royal grant given to Sir George Carteret and Lord Berkeley of Stratton by the King of England after the land was taken from Sweden. The plot was part of a survey for the Province of West Jersey which was eventually sold to the Quakers (William Penn) due to governance conflicts with East Jersey and New York. The house that is on the land was built in 1925, a year after the town was officially incorporated as a town in 1924. Prior to that, the town surrounding the Lucas paint works and the Hilliards Mill was basically there for the workers who worked at the mill and paint factory. So it was a "company town". Hilliards Mill was established by guy named George Matlack in 1714 who owned the mill and surrounding land he bought from the Quakers. He sold it to Joesph Hilliard in 1744. That's who the mill is named after and in 1766, he sold some of the property and the mill to John Matlack, a nephew of George Matlack. John Matlak died and left the property to Hannah Matlack Gibbs, his daughter, who renamed the mill The Gibbs Mill. The Gibbs family rebuilt and expanded the mill on Silver Lake and the surrounding town subsequently expanded and became an unincorporated town in Waterford Township in Gloucester County. In 1812, the Gibbs family sold the 500 acre estate the town and mill were on as well as the mill to John Clement. My property plot is on the edge of that 500 acre parcel which was broken up in the early 1800's and was part of a farm that one of the Gibbs family members ran until it was parceled out even further in 1852 when came to town, bought just the mill and the rest of the parcels were broken up and sold off. The property boundary has been in place since at least 1852. Prior to that when it was part of a much bigger parcel that included the gun club and all the frontage properties as well as the cemetery on my street, it was marked off in surveys as far back as 1766 which were the records used by the new government after the creation of the State of New Jersey. The property parcel actually spans two towns, both of which were incorporated in the early 1900's, long after this parcel's lines were drawn up. So yeah, aside from the lake, this plot of land has been either farm or forest since before NJ was a thing. I'm pretty sure the house is a Sears house too.

The lake is a sluice lake controlled and created by a small sluice dam. Yes, I own the dam. The lake was dug out and dragged in 1929 or thereabouts and the records show the dam in place by 1930 and the lake was created in 1931 and on the list of local waterways.

The lake is part of two tributaries that make up the headwaters of the Cooper River in NJ. So not only is it partial flood plain but it's protected watershed for much of the property. That's important to remember as I get to the stories about the illegal dumping from the previous owner.

The property has 3 neighbors. A frontage property to one side that only goes back about 175 feet. On the other side is a large baptist church. We are separated by a stream, though. Behind me and behind my neighbor is a gun club that owns the property as a "buffer zone" which is A-OK by me. Beyond that is a nature conservancy and then part of a small town and the Wharton State Forest.

So aside from my one neighbor who is a pack of arsewholes I'm on a lonely plot of land with my own lake. The lake has an "island". I use quotes because someone once dug a trench across a pennisula and made an "island". But the previous owner didn't maintain it so it's filled in and has become a bug farm.

We got in to this house because we got it for a song. Mainly because of the condition the property was in. But this isn't beyond my capabilities so I was ok with getting in to it. It's still not beyond my capabilities, there's just a ton of work to do which is, again, fine with me. There's just an aspect here that needs explaining to understand the frustrations.

Previous owner has been referred to as Captain Halfass. Because everything here that has been half-assed has his fingerprints all over it. There's two kinds of problems at this house. Old house problems which I fully expected and am equipped to handle. Then there's Captain Halfass problems. Those are usually stupid stuff added to "remedy" an old house problem that makes things 10 times more difficult than they need to be. Like, for instance, my first set of pictures.

This was how the kitchen was when we took possession of the house. Well, not completely, there were a couple cabinets and an old range hood in the space of bare plaster board above the stove. I can't find those pictures right now, if I do, I'll post them. The reason why is because the kitchen "update" was done without permits and not to code. The stove was too big for the space and it was actually burning the cabinets that were there. Previous owner, instead of listening to the inspector, remedied it with a new electric stove that still didn't pass code. So none of this was inspected until the day of closing. I had to leave the stove off and unconnected to be able to get the ok for the sale to go through otherwise I was gonna lawyer up. I got a 30 days extension to be able to fix the problem before the rest of the fam could move in.





So I had a bunch of fixing to do. Also, those cabinets on either side? They were scorched on the bottom because they hung over the stove top and were too close to range top. The stove was actually burning them. With the state of the electrical behind it, I have no idea how they didn't set the house on fire.

So after getting an electrician friend to come over and help me with figuring out the mess and having a plumber fix the gas line, this is how it looked. What we did was my father and I built new cabinets to mimic the cabinets in the rest of the kitchen that would be code for the new stove. We installed a microwave /range hood as well.



When it was all done, I went and bent up some stainless steel filler panels and made a stainless steel backsplash.



This is all temporary until we get the kitchen redone. It has to be gutted, unfortunately. Captain Halfass didn't remove anything when he put new granite counter tops in and new flooring. So things like the dishwasher are tiled in to place and there's 4 floors underneath that tile. Also, the "refinished" bathroom off the kitchen has none of the plumbing done right and the sink leaks because the vanity and vanity top are not secure to the wall or floor or even each other for that matter. Also, as you can see in the pictures above, the vent duct for the original range hood? Doesn't go anywhere. I'm pretty sure there is a godfosaken hell behind the cabinets because the vent just vented into the space behind the cabinet header. Oh, also, junction and outlet boxes were buried behind the cabinets. That's not only a big code problem but it's a big fire hazard. So yeah. Full. Gut. Job.

Can't wait.

dromunds

Yeah, I had to gut my kitchen, rewire the whole house, but it also allowed me to insulate properly and do everything right. It’ll be a lot of work tho.

steveinaz

Wow, great story on the property.

Jstas

Ohhhhhh....there's plenty more!

Some of it involves forklifts, front end loaders and electrical fires.

Yes, that's right, plural. As in multiple electrical fires.

Just you wait.

audioluvr

Sounds like fun.

dromunds

The name “Captain Halfass” gave me a good chuckle. Hard to believe someone can go through their whole life like that

Kex

Awesome story, and what an adventure! Best of luck with the next chapters. 🍀

nooshinjohn

Have a similar story here as well. Just one example is our kitchen floor was 9 layers of linoleum and glue. It felt like walking on soft sponge. If you stood in one place long enough, you would leave an impression a half inch deep that would spring back over time.

Jstas

So, the other thing that held up our Certificate of Occupancy (there's a whole story behind that too) was the pool.

They said the railing was not to code. The day of the closing the housing inspector was failing the inspection because of it.

Two solutions were possible to not delay the sale and kill my financing agreement.
1.) Drain the pool - this is because of risk to kids getting into the pool and drowning. But apparently a 32 foot by 16 foot by 4 foot deep hole is A-OK safety standard wise
2.) The other option that the state of NJ was ok with was to close the pool until the railing could be brought to code. This option was outright rejected by our inspector.

So we had to drain the pool to get a temporary CoO approved.

So this is what the pool looked like when we got the house.








The biggest problem was this.



That's the liner coming out of the track that holds the liner in place.

The problem with draining the pool is that the liner shrinks without the water weight in it. As it shrinks, that little dip there which is repairable ends up dropping the entire liner out of the track. Then, a $200 service charge to fix it from a pool guy turns into $2000 worth of new liner installation. So the inspector not willing to just let me close the pool until I could fix the railing and gates was causing an even bigger financial problem for me through his own stubbornness and inability to know his job.

So what I had to do was make a railing system as quickly as I could so that I could get this all passed so my family could move in. I was livid. I had to do this as cheaply as possible because I was pretty much broke and this jerk of an inspector was making me jump through all these hoops like I was a general contractor working on new construction. He wanted quotes from a building supply company even though I was getting stuff from Lowe's. He wanted quotes from multiple contractors that were going to do the work. He even tried to tell me that I was not allowed to do the work myself, I had to hire someone to build the deck for me. At the end of August when every builder is swamped trying to get already started work done before the cold weather hits. I called 9 contractors. Only one actually answered the phone or called me back to tell me he was sorry but he had no time to get to me until November...this was August.

So I ended up calling the NJ state building department and told them my situation. The guy starts asking me what town and what inspector and as soon as I said the town name and the inspector name he just started telling me where to send the complaint. Apparently this is a REALLY common thing for this inspector. They told me what I actually had to do and what I had to file which was 1/10th of what my local inspector said I had to do and they told me I was completely allowed to do the work myself, that's why we have inspectors to make sure it's right.

He also gave me an appointment to have a state inspector come down, look at the pool and tell me what I could do. That allowed me to refill the pool and close it for the winter. The state inspector gave me my permanent certificate and a card to give to my town inspector to call if he had a problem with it.

So what I ended up doing was this.

First I had to repair the railings. The cross beams between posts were pretty shot, half were falling down. The cap pieces were salvageable but needed to be secure down again.




Then, according to the plan I filed, I got 1x2 boards and cut the to 48 inches. With the math I did, I needed about 465 of them. So I bought 235 8 foot boards (had to go to 3 different Lowes to get enough) and got pressure treated boards for $2 a board. I needed half a dozen 2x6's as well. So that was $500 in lumber. Another $90 in nails and screws and a 4x4 post for the gate across the giant staircase. Plus hardware. $650 total. Plus a case of beer and a couple steak dinners for a friend who came a helped me even though I didn't want him to because he had a hernia.






So first I cut up the boards with a jig I made for my cheapy miter saw. It's like a giant slide rule with peg holes to hold the 4x4 stop at common distances from the saw blade. I set it at 4 feet and slammed through all 235 boards and made 470 uprights. Took like 3.5 hours.



Next, I built a jig that would give me the spacing I needed for the upright boards so I could pass inspection for it. A 2x3 and a couple pieces of scrap underlayment and I was in business!



So I started a side at one end. Nailed a piece up to the corner, flush with the corner. Then I hung my jig on the top rail but up against that corner piece. I slid another upright in and ptshht ptshht, it's up. Lift the jig and slide in up next to the one I just put in and ptshht ptshht, up. Just keep going until the side is done. Every so often go fill up the wagon with more and bring them back down to the deck.

Oh, also, built a big wagon for the yard 'cause big ones from the store were expensive. I'll write another post about that 'cause it's a whole system, not just a wagon.

So here's the pictures of the process.










So I got all the uprights up on the rails.

Next thing was I had to put a gate in on the wide stairs. But the stairs were 9 feet wide. That gate would be WAY too big. So I got a 4x4 post and bolted it to the header panel on the top of the stairs. 3 carraige bolts, offset pattern to minimize twisting. Put one panel in, made it semi-permanent. Can be removed quickly with a screw gun. The other side is a gate that latches in the center.







Once all that was done, I called the inspector back and he failed me. Three reasons.
1.) The small stair case gate "opened the wrong way". Despite the rules saying the gate had to be a certain direction within a certain distance of the pool, he said it was the wrong way even though it was outside of the "certain distance" and not subject to that rule. So I had to remove the hinges and make the panel "look permanent"

2.) The uprights on gate panels were 3/4ths of inch apart, not 1/2 of an inch. Despite 3/4ths or narrower being actual code, he failed me because I listed 1/2 inch in the plans. State of NJ said that was horse**** and not something he could fail me for.

3.) The pool filter was too close to the pool. That was never mentioned in his original inspection. (I fixed it but I'll make another post about that whole pile of absurdity later.

I lost my poo on him. Jackie was there and she pushed me away before I killed the guy 'cause, ya know, you get the feeling that somebody is just **** with you because they can instead of giving you a good faith break. All he said was that I did a ton of unnecessary work, I could have just screwed plywood up and been done with it.

Jstas

So yeah, I went and fixed everything and had him come back out. I was as nice as could be but I know I was giving off one hell of a murderous vibe. He was uncomfortable and actually got dizzy looking at the pool railings because of how it now looks like it's floating.

I told him I didn't care.

The inspector said, because I was glaring at him, on his last visit for the pool inspection "You scare me."

I said "Why's that now?"

He says "You have a look in your eye...it's unsettling."

I said "Good."

He was also so late on the inspections in the spring time that I ended up having to wait another month to get the pool opened. I finished this work in April, 3rd week of April 2018. He didn't set up an inspection until May 8th and then failed me and didn't come back out until, like May 20th. So, because I needed that liner repaired, we ended up having to wait until the end of July to actually get the pool opened because all the service companies were already booked up. First chance I could get anyone out was 2nd week of July, two days after my birthday. Then it took a week and a half to fix it because I had to drain the pool completely again to re-stretch the liner. Then refill it. But I also had to replace the filter because it was cracked and leaking so bad it wasn't filteirng anything.

So $1500 later, we got about 4.5 weeks of pool usage our first year in the house.

I hate our local inspector.


Also, all this is temporary which is why my "fix" looks shabby. Temporary at least until I get time to rebuild the pool deck completely. I have a feeling the pool is going to need significant repair so I'm pretty much holding off on rebuilding the deck until I have to replace the liner and get a structural assessment of the pool. It would change the height of the pool walls, most likely, so I rather do a ton of work once instead of twice.

Upstatemax

dromunds wrote: »

The name “Captain Halfass” gave me a good chuckle. Hard to believe someone can go through their whole life like that

One of my good friends is Commander in Chief Halfass, it drives me nuts.

The worst part, the last few years he has been “flipping” houses. It shocks me when he is actually able to sell a house. My wife asked me why I get mad about the sale actually going through. I told her I get upset because it highlights how much the “inspection” system fails the average home buyer. Not a single home he has sold should have passed an inspection.

Thankfully he has realized to stay away from homes where structural work can come into play and focus on simple, cosmetic flips.

jeremymarcinko

Man that sucks. What’s the quote? “Be weary of ignorance in a position of authority” or something like that.

We’ve had some similar experience with our township trustees and inspectors. Uneducated, inexperienced, self serving people grabbing money for their own interests and not the interests of the community.

steveinaz

Nice work man, I know it seems exhausting..but its gonna be worth it. That's a cool property.

steveinaz

The cattle ranch in Oregon that Bev was raised on was built by her grandfather. I remember replacing the bathroom vanity fixture and noticing the insulation on the supply wires literally CRUMBLING in my fingers as I tried to make connections. I let her Dad know immediately, that the house needed to be re-wired, and it has been. Spooky.

Jstas

OK, so, the yard trailer I built.

So I have a little, green, steel yard wagon. It's useful and I use it a bunch because it rolls easily over uneven ground.

However, it's small and only holds a few hundred pounds. So, it's limited and you'll see in the pictures the difference.

So when we got the house, there was a ton of work that I had to do around the yard and I needed to move stuff that wasn't necessarily heavy, just large and awkward. I decided I needed something bigger. I went looking and everything was several hundred dollars and I just wasn't willing to spend that and have to put it together myself anyway.

I went, instead, about designing my own wagon set up. What I really wanted was a dump body but I needed a flat bed right away. So I devised a modular system for my wagon. I built a ladder frame from 2x4's and a wagon axle kit I got for about $100. The wagon axle kit was only rated to 800 pounds but that's 'cause the tires had a 200 pound max load rating. So I replaced the tires/wheels with ones that have a 380 pound weight limit (hooray Harbor Freight!). So it's now just over 1500 pounds. But as you can see in the picture here, the frame has two long slots in it.



Those slots are there to accept bars that are attached to the bottom of whatever body I build for it. In this case, the flat bed. You can see the bars on the bottom in this picture.



I built the flatbed frame from a 4x8 sheet of plywood that I cut down to 3 x 6.5 feet because 4 feet wide was too wobbly for the narrow track. I used a narrow track because the trailer, despite the size of the flatbed, will fit in tight spots and handles rough terrain better. I screwed the 3/4" sheet to a 2x4 frame and then carriage bolted it though the 2x4 bars on the bottom.



Then I added the stake pockets.

Next, I had to stiffen the ladder frame because it liked to twist. But I didn't want to rebuild the ladder frame with different bracing and I needed a 1/2 inch in height to clear the handle neck (hind sight's 20/20) so I took another piece of 3/4" plywood I had laying around and I screwed it to the ladder frame while I weighted it down to flatten it out. Once that was done, I cut the slots with a jig saw.



Then I fit the flat bed to the frame and drilled holes through the rails and the slots for hex bolts to be able to bolt the flat bed to the frame. To remove it, all I have to do is undo the hex bolts and the flat bed lifts right off the frame. Then whatever other body I build for it can slide right in and use the same bolts to hold it in place.



To get an idea of the size difference here, this is the green wagon on top of the flat bed.



Next I built stake panels from 2x3's and 1x4 boards. I loaded the 2x3's that I cut down to 28 inches and put then in the stake pockets.



Then I measured the lengths of the sides and cut the needed 1x4's to the necessary lengths. I started at the bottom of the stakes and secured the first row.

Then, using a 1x4 as a spacer, I secured the next set of cross bars.



I did the same for the top row and left the stubs sticking up as they are useful for securing stuff that needs to be tied down and can also keep things from shifting around.

I secured a magnet to the front stake panel to hold the handle up when not in use.



I can't find the pictures right now but last summer, after using the trailer for a year and a half and beating it up good, I sanded it all down. I coated the flat bed entirely in rubberized bed liner paint. Then I stained and spar varnished the stake panels. You can kinda see it here in this picture:



That was moments before the trailer actually breaking. Well, the handle twisted because the trailer was not loaded in a balanced way and as soon as the front left tire hit so soft ground, it sunk in, bound up and the whole trailer tipped over, bending the handle and it's mount.

So I have to take the front assembly apart and fix it while replacing the handle.

But to get a cart for the yard that would hold 1500+ pounds, I was looking at anywhere from $600 to $1000 and it wouldn't be anywhere near this big or versatile. I think I have $350 in to this now what with having to get another handle assembly to replace the broken one.

But this thing has been great for moving tools around the property, moving yard waste or other materials like dirt, stone and lumber and I was even giving the kids and their friends rides around the property with it.

I have plans to upgrade the under carriage with beefier wheels, tires and axles and I am going to get a hydraulic ram to build a dump body around to make it easier to move materials without having shovel them in then shovel them out.

Additionally, I wanted the size because I am building scaffolding that can be disassembled and stored flat so I can get large things up to the 2nd and 3rd floors of the house.



Right now, that big bay window on the 2nd floor above the porch is the only way to get anything larger than a dresser up to the 2nd floor. To get it there, people have to perch themselves precariously on the roof while others pass whatever it is up to them.

So I'm working on a modular scaffold system to support a track that I can use my 12K pound winch to string up to that window through a snatch block. That will then be brought back down to a 4 foot by 8 foot cart that will ride on the track. Then, whatever big thing needs to go upstairs gets loaded on the cart and the winch drags it up the track and stops at the top where people safely inside can drag it in through the window. Nobody has to be on a roof or perched precariously on a ladder and I could probably move stuff myself with the contraption if need be.

So the flat bed needs to be big enough to hold the scaffolding pieces 'cause I'm not lugging the panels all over the place by hand when I have a wee beasty of a tractor to do it for me.

msg

John, you're a friggin' maniac! Cool stuff!

txcoastal1

So wrong

mhardy6647

@Jstas has the coolest lawn tractor on the planet.

I do like the modular cart design, too!

Jstas

Look, I made this thread so I wouldn't destroy everyone else's threads and I had a place to share stuff with steveinaz 'cause he's asked several times now.

You shenanigans are dumb and counter-productive. Quit it and I'm going to ask Alma to remove your garbage posts.

xschop

It's nice when you can look back in 10 years and see all your hard work, that's if you can locate your old thread...
Nice work.

steveinaz

That is one sturdy wagon. Those things are priceless when you have land. Such a cool house.

Jstas

Honestly, if it wasn't wooded, I'd just use my truck. But there's not enough space to be able to drive a truck around all the trees. With the lake there too, there's lots of soft, marshy land. So a truck would sink pretty quick.

I actually have a beat up lawn tractor that a friend dropped off and gave to me. Need an engine and I have to fix the transaxle because it seems to be jammed up but the plan is to box the frame in with 2x3 square tubing and mount plates on the front and back to hold the winch and tow hitches so I can use that tractor to get the winch in places that I can't get a truck. I'll have to re-rig the winch to be able to dead-man it with a tree because a 400 pound tractor is no match for dragging a 10K pound tree out of the lake.

My dad keeps telling me I bought a boy scout camp and that's honestly what it feels like. Hell, I've been saving trees that were cut down or fell down, bucked the logs and stacked them in case I need them to build erosion dykes to keep the yard from washing in to the lake. I already have to build a dredge to clean up the lake...which is another fun story of dumb to share.

msg

Hey John, you might look for a geotech or concrete testing lab in your area. They’re always getting rid of untested concrete cylinders, which are 6” x 12”. They’re great for bulkheads and erosion control. The ones I used to work for were happy to offload them to people monthly because they just dispose of them anyway, and it saves on their disposal fees.

Jstas

I have to take some pictures to show what I'm talking about there's a spot where Captain Halfass really messed up the lake by trying to drive a front end loader in. The one neighbor told me about it and they were intending to dredge the lake that way. But the 20K pound machine essentially sunk in the much up to the frame rails and they had to get an asset recovery company to come out and remove it. It's filled in and full of muck now because he never cleaned it up right. The water level got so shallow there that there's all kinds of bushes growing out of it.

So I was going to dig it all out again with a small excavator and fill in the odd, sunken spot with rocky fill and then sand to make a beach and a boat dock to haul canoes or a pedal boat or the johnboat up on. concrete cylinders would be good for that.

For erosion dykes, though, I think I'd want the logs because the point there in conservation efforts is to restore the hillside. It erodes because all the good dirt has been washed away and the hard, poor soil that is left doesn't really let anything take root before one good rainstorm washes it away.

So what we use to do in the scouts at the camp was dig a trench across the hill face and the stake in either logs or old railroad ties to make a terrace on the hillside. Then fill it in behind the log/railroad tie and plant stuff to stabilize it. If it worked well, you'd end up with a terraced hill and as the wooden **** rotted away, it would eventually return the hillside to the it's natural state and stop the erosion. Using concrete tubes would work for that but they'd be permanent and cause other problems down the line.

But, sinking some 6" pipes vertically into the ground and filling them with stone or concrete would make a really good bulkhead support for a dock wall!

Jstas

This is what makes it worth it.

Storming like crazy all day. Finally passed. Sun is out, winds died down. I have two does I watched grow up from fawns chewing on the lawn just to the left of this picture. Out by the pool are a mating pair of geese who just recently hatched 3 little yellow puffballs of goslings. It's hard to see in the picture here because of glare o the water but there's 3 painted turtles basking in what's left of the sun for the day. There's a myriad of song birds tweeting away and the spring peepers are just getting ready to go nuts for the night.

And I'm just sitting here with a beer on the porch, posting this and reading a book.

Clipdat

A myriad? That's a lotta song birds.

mhardy6647

. . . . .

Upstatemax

When it rains, it pours!

My daughter tried to burn my house down by basically setting fire to waffles in the microwave (don’t ask me why she was microwaving waffles) and that started as “we need a new microwave” to my wife feeling like “we need a new kitchen”.

Then, my hot water tank bit the dust tonight.

The real kicker, I was THIS close to being in a new house a week ago!

We backed out of a contract when the sellers turned crazy. If everything went to plan, I would have signed all this over to someone else!

I’m going to self medicate with music and whiskey...

audioluvr

Upstatemax wrote: »

When it rains, it pours!

My daughter tried to burn my house down by basically setting fire to waffles in the microwave (don’t ask me why she was microwaving waffles) and that started as “we need a new microwave” to my wife feeling like “we need a new kitchen”.

Then, my hot water tank bit the dust tonight.

The real kicker, I was THIS close to being in a new house a week ago!

We backed out of a contract when the sellers turned crazy. If everything went to plan, I would have signed all this over to someone else!

I’m going to self medicate with music and whiskey...

Damn! Good choice

xschop

I finally got some time to install the four GX53 LED pucks under cabinets. Hardest part was trying to fish the wire through the wall to outlet boxes. I swapped in the Outlet/Switch combo receptacles to run them.....

mhardy6647

^^^ Nice! Is that a pantry in the corner or something else?

We have LED strip lighting under the cabinets in the kitchen; I like them a lot. Indeed, they're usually all of the light we (I, at any rate) use out there. Turning on all the lights makes it looks like an operating theater in the kitchen.