A challenge to the king: Audio Research 5se vs Cary SLP05

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,415
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  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,157
    I hope you don’t sell the Cary. I sure like going back and forth to the Cary and joule. Best of both worlds and hard to find any longer.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    The Cary is being let go
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    Nailed that one.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2019
    ...and you're sure the tube compliment of each didn't have something to do with one being preferred over the other and not the differences in units?

    I didn't take the time to look what each uses where, but in your reviews and conversation there is no mention of tubes used or rolled or if they were the same, etc, etc. or even what each was running. Sort of a huge omission when comparing tubed gear, IMO.

    Tubes are extremely important in a pre-amp as they can make or break the sound..........profoundly in some cases.

    Just curious

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,962
    F1nut wrote: »
    Nailed that one.

    Yep, AR has a reputation for "clean", and Cary "warm". For me....I'll take warm over clean any day and twice on Sundays.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,496
    edited February 2019
    Congrats Joey. The 5SE was on my upgrade list but I stopped at the Ref 3. Definitely bypass the 5.

    I sure don't feel cold listening to the 'clean' sound versus warm and soggy. Some of you guys make AR sound like a really bad choice. It isn't. Period.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,157
    Joey, If you sell the pope's. Let me know. Thanks
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    I think AR is a great choice. I was just curios about the tubes used in both and if any experimentation was going on. It's weird to me to review 2 tube pieces, but never touch on the tubes. Even just naming what tubes were used for each.

    It's great when you can re-discover your system all over with a new/different piece of gear. it's one thing that makes this hobby so much fun!

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    Can we assume stock/factory provided tubes in both?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Can we assume stock/factory provided tubes in both?

    I suppose, but there are some better, more musical choices out there. What comes stock?

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    No idea.
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  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,157
    The cary slp05 come with stock electro-harmonix 6sn7's
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited February 2019
    Hey guys

    So in all actuality, the Cary 05 has the advantage of home field. It has been tweaked as best as I could over the 4 years that I've had it. The stock tubes are ElectroHarmonix 6sn7, but I have rolled so many tubes through it including Sylvanias, RCA, and new stock Tung Sols.

    The best I could find are actually the extremely rare Pope 6sn7 tubes from Upscale which they do not sell to the freemarket. I bought them for approximately $500 for 6 tubes.

    I have tried 6 Popes in all the positions, and settled on EH in 2 of the positions and Popes in 4 of the positions.

    This gave me the best combination of warmth and speed and imaging density.

    Power cord is the best AQ (not counting the new triple braid series) WEL at approximately $4K/1meter.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2019
    Like I said, just curious as a conversation point. Not being critical or even questioning his choice.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    The ARC 5se comes with stock tubes. The power cord is a Shunyata, I am not exactly sure which model but it is one of their top tier.

    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    Joey, If you sell the pope's. Let me know. Thanks

    That will be a hard thing for me to sell... the Popes cannot be found and I might always need a 6sn7 for something...
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Hey guys

    So in all actuality, the Cary 05 has the advantage of home field. It has been tweaked as best as I could over the 4 years that I've had it. The stock tubes are ElectroHarmonix 6sn7, but I have rolled so many tubes through it including Sylvanias, RCA, and new stock Tung Sols.

    The best I could find are actually the extremely rare Pope 6sn7 tubes from Upscale which they do not sell to the freemarket. I bought them for approximately $500 for 6 tubes.

    I have tried 6 Popes in all the positions, and settled on EH in 2 of the positions and Popes in 4 of the positions.

    This gave me the best combination of warmth and speed and imaging density.

    Power cord is the best AQ (not counting the new triple braid series) WEL at approximately $4K/1meter.

    Ah, yes I remember you talking about the Pope's. Great Euro 6SN7.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    tonyb wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Nailed that one.

    Yep, AR has a reputation for "clean", and Cary "warm". For me....I'll take warm over clean any day and twice on Sundays.

    I am not sure where "clean" has become a bad thing.

    I would say the ARC is clean in that I believe it has a more even FR than the Cary 05. But the imaging is better, the imaging is denser, the imaging is actually more in line with the singer's mouth (not vertically tall unnaturally).

    The bass is stupendous.

    THe treble is extended but not harsh (which is weird that I would say the Cary has a slight hardness to the upper treble by comparison, which I noted to have been ameliorated to a great degree by tube rolling and the Wel speaker wire).... but I had always noted a hardness to my system sound in years past.

    I would say that if you take everything into account, the ARC 5se sounds more real and smooth like butter.

    To me, it is a no contest deal for the Boulder pairing. The ARC 5se is simply a showstopper for my system and my ears.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    Joey_V wrote: »
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    Joey, If you sell the pope's. Let me know. Thanks

    That will be a hard thing for me to sell... the Popes cannot be found and I might always need a 6sn7 for something...

    Not to rain on WagnerRC's parade, but if you don't need to sell them, hang onto them since they are so hard to find. You never know when you might get another piece of gear the uses them.

    I have several (as in about 20 pairs) rare/ultra rare tubes I will never sell unless I have to because I either got a screaming deal never to be gotten at that price again or they are just too rare to part with.

    Just my .02c

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    Joey, If you sell the pope's. Let me know. Thanks

    That will be a hard thing for me to sell... the Popes cannot be found and I might always need a 6sn7 for something...

    Not to rain on WagnerRC's parade, but if you don't need to sell them, hang onto them since they are so hard to find. You never know when you might get another piece of gear the uses them.

    I have several (as in about 20 pairs) rare/ultra rare tubes I will never sell unless I have to because I either got a screaming deal never to be gotten at that price again or they are just too rare to part with.

    Just my .02c

    H9

    Yeah, Bob's a great guy and he lent me Acoustic Zen gear in the past and even bought Emma some goodies.

    But it took me ages to land the Popes..... I mean, it was not easy to find them. If I were to sell it though, it will go to him for sure.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,157
    I agree keep them Joey. I just wanted to make the offer if they went up for sale.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,496
    edited February 2019
    With the 5SE, your choices are somewhat limited. 6H30 ~ $36 each. IIRC the 5SE uses 6H30P reflector ~ $179 each and an upgrade would be the 6H30P-DR Reflector, 1990 production, ~$299 each.

    The 5SE takes five 6H30 and one 6550. The 6550 and one 6H30 are for power supply, four 6H30 for the pre.

    Some folks that didn't like the 5SE paired it with low impedance input amps. AR says 26,000 minimum though some folks claim it performs better with higher amp input impedance. Joey's amp has 400,000 on balanced IIRC. Mine has 47,000.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    But I believe the Cary still wins for piano.

    Just not the lower registers.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    With the 5SE, your choices are somewhat limited. 6H30 ~ $36 each. The 5SE uses 6H30P reflector ~ $179 each and an upgrade would be the 6H30P-DR Reflector, 1990 production, ~$299 each.

    The 5SE takes five 6H30 and one 6550. The 6550 and one 6H30 are for power supply, four 6H30 for the pre.

    You are the master sir.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    Scomp - can you look at the Audio Research 40th Anniv. What tube complements do you see?

    rsz_209_audio_research_40th_4.jpg
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,496
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Scomp - can you look at the Audio Research 40th Anniv. What tube complements do you see?

    rsz_209_audio_research_40th_4.jpg

    Eight 6H30P dual triodes, plus two each 6550C and 6H30P in power supply.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,496
    Joey_V wrote: »

    You are the master sir.

    Nah, I just read and lust alot...lol
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Scomp - can you look at the Audio Research 40th Anniv. What tube complements do you see?

    rsz_209_audio_research_40th_4.jpg

    Oooo..la..la.

    Gorgeous....

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    I would need approval from the missus for the 40.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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