Northern CA Wildfire

nooshinjohn

I just left our local fire house, stopping in to thank them for all their hard work. They told me that the EPA had crews in Bell Canyon working to assess the radiation and toxicity levels at the SSFL site as the fires were burning up there. One guy told me the EPA said nothing, but the expressions on their faces were not comforting. They were in full MOPP gear as they were running their tests, and conducting surveys. Several detection and sensor equipment were set up and left behind, along with a couple of drones that will monitor the area remotely.

nooshinjohn

motorhead43026 wrote: »

You can't put transmission lines underground.

Then they should be set up on land that has been properly cleared and turned into concrete parking lots in areas that can burn, and that can be taken off-grid within a nanosecond of a problem being detected. They should also be built in areas that afford rapid response to a failure. Part of prevention is being prepared to fight.

motorhead43026

^^obviously you have no idea what a transmission line is, so I will leave it at that. But yes, they do need to keep those areas clear of vegetation as much as possible. The problem is these areas tend to be very remote,

I sell that stuff for a living, 30 years now.

nooshinjohn

Explain why they can’t be set up in such a way as to minimize risk. That’s all I am saying here. If we can put a man on the moon, we should be able to reduce risk of horrible fires if a transmission line fails.

nooshinjohn

@motorhead43026 ... looks like you are wrong on transmission lines, btw. They can be placed underground, and that is a preferred method in large cities. The reasons it is not done is COST, and ease of maintenance. Environmental concerns, such as damage done by trenching are another reason.


Google is your friend.

tonyb

Darn google, gonna be the end of bar fights as we know it.

PSOVLSK

Viking64 wrote: »

I just want to lounge around the see-ment pond with Elly May.

Viking64 wrote: »

I had a 1971 Buick Skylark and the transmission lines dragged on the ground.

Probably not the best thread for your jokes.

motorhead43026

Hey John, sure you can do underground transmission in urban areas, it is armored cable. But the main line will come in overhead from the source and then transition to underground in the urban area.

No different than underground distribution. It will come in overhead and transition to underground in new housing developments of the last 25 years. Thus the reason for no lines. But there is always a overhead service outside the area that feeds the underground.

You want to be able to afford electric, correct?


Keep to babysitting, you are way out of your league.

Viking64

PSOVLSK wrote: »

Probably not the best thread for your jokes.

Not the best thread for arguing either, but as always, hypocrisy runs rampant around here.

mrloren

All of these fires are way crazy. I pray for the people who lost everything. Very sad.

#1 Reason for transmission lines not being under ground is environmental. Any time they try to do it lawsuits go crazy. They were trying to do it in San Diego's back country and wound up having to go above ground.

Other than my time in the Army and vacations I've lived in San Diego County. Back in the day they did controlled burns in the winter. Fire breaks were made. people could clear land as they saw fit. We didn't have crazy fires then.

Now there is no more controlled burns, fire breaks are no longer made. To clear land more the 100' from your home requires a permit that is always denied. I do have a couple friends that live in the back country. All of them say screw permits and clear land as they see fit. One who didn't lost his house in 2007 fires, all the rest didn't. Guy that lost his home was hit with a restraining order for clearing his land 200' away a few years earlier.

I like nature and protecting the environment. I do think some of the laws and groups pushing the laws have gone way too far.

Viking64

tonyb wrote: »

Darn google, gonna be the end of bar fights as we know it.

NO JOKES!!! Oh, wait. John approves.

nooshinjohn

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Hey John, sure you can do transmission in urban areas, it is armored cable. But the main line will come in overhead from the source and then transition to underground in the urban area.

No different than underground distribution. It will come in overhead and transition to underground in new housing developments of the last 25 years. Thus the reason for no lines. But there is always a overhead service outside the area that feeds the underground.

Keep to babysitting, you are way out of your league.

Google's gonna get you every time....
https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-energy/how-electricity-grid-works#.W-8xj_ZFx3Q

Every site I go to tells me the same thing... for every foot of line, the cost is up to TEN TIMES more expensive to bury it as opposed to above ground. Digging a bit further, it would be more dangerous to use the underground method here in California because a moderate or large earthquake would take forever to find the problems and fix them. Above ground offers far easier access, cheaper construction costs and better system integrity in areas like California, due to it being more resilient in an earthquake.

On no site did I find the reason given as being due to not being able to handle heat, nor do they list any other reasons other than it being easier and cheaper to keep things up on poles and transmission towers. Perhaps you can send me a link to some further reading and I can get my learn on....

tonyb

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Hey John, sure you can do transmission in urban areas, it is armored cable. But the main line will come in overhead from the source and then transition to underground in the urban area.

No different than underground distribution. It will come in overhead and transition to underground in new housing developments of the last 25 years. Thus the reason for no lines. But there is always a overhead service outside the area that feeds the underground.

Keep to babysitting, you are way out of your league.

You have a valid point, but lets get real for a second. While transmission lines do have to come from above ground to enter say an underground area like a sub division or city, that point of them being above ground is more stout than your typical subdivision pole. They are usually on steel towers, made to withstand natures elements. One can usually see them line the countryside outside major metro areas.

There's pro's and con's to both, above or below ground. Major metro areas though, can't afford to lose power during storms, and for safety concerns, so they bury them when possible. Surprisingly enough, less than about 20% of all transmission lines are underground. Costs can range from 1-3 million per mile to bury them. Obviously being underground, the maintenance is killer, and makes them exposed to flooding. Even though the cables themselves are coated, and water won't necessarily affect them, you just never know if there is a break somewhere else that can electrify flooded chambers.

I use to install and test underground chambers, grounding grids and pipes to run these lines, For a suburb here called Naperville, pretty darn big suburb. They have their own electric company, pretty impressive for a suburb. Ohare airport here in Chicago has a major transmission line buried feeding the whole airport. That line is filled with oil and has a special coating on it. If you so much as scratch that line, it's a min. 1 million bucks to repair. Electric company supervisors did their best to inform me of that, while watching me dig around it.

The dago in me thought....what a great place to bury a body, nobody would dig on top of a transmission line looking for one.

[Deleted User]

tonyb wrote: »

Btw....feds own something like 45.8% out in Cali. Here's a map too. If you notice, the fires are not even on federal land. Paradise is just on the cusp of it with federal lands to the east. Chico, is west of Paradise. Same thing with the fires in Malibu, roughly. That said, does one seriously think, government.....state or Federal, is going to manage forests very well ? Especially given the size and scope we have all over the country ? They can't run a post office or DMV for Pete's sake. Fires need to be addressed on the state level, just like Hurricanes are addressed in Florida. Make it a priority out there.

I like this Tony guy. He doesn't create facts and try to back them up with selective data that supports preconceptions. We could learn a few things from him.

motorhead43026

tonyb wrote: »

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Hey John, sure you can do transmission in urban areas, it is armored cable. But the main line will come in overhead from the source and then transition to underground in the urban area.

No different than underground distribution. It will come in overhead and transition to underground in new housing developments of the last 25 years. Thus the reason for no lines. But there is always a overhead service outside the area that feeds the underground.

Keep to babysitting, you are way out of your league.

You have a valid point, but lets get real for a second. While transmission lines do have to come from above ground to enter say an underground area like a sub division or city, that point of them being above ground is more stout than your typical subdivision pole. They are usually on steel towers, made to withstand natures elements. One can usually see them line the countryside outside major metro areas.

There's pro's and con's to both, above or below ground. Major metro areas though, can't afford to lose power during storms, and for safety concerns, so they bury them when possible. Surprisingly enough, less than about 20% of all transmission lines are underground. Costs can range from 1-3 million per mile to bury them.

I use to install and test underground chambers, grounding grids and pipes to run these lines, For a suburb here called Naperville, pretty darn big suburb. They have their own electric company, pretty impressive for a suburb.

Tony, I was not comparing the two. I was just pointing out to John an example that he might be able to see in his own backyard. Same principle, one is trans and the other being distribution.

Transmission is from the source, ie dam, nuclear plant, coal fired plant. The transmission travels to the nearest substation where it is stepped down to a distribution voltage. I sell Transmission structures, both metal and the wood pole H Frame designs. I sell everything between the transmission source to and including the meter on the back of your house.

motorhead43026

Tony, you know were Mattoon, IL is?

tonyb

Yep Motor, thanks for that clarification as some may not realize the difference. The voltage also in above ground TRANSMISSION lines is also greater than distribution lines. Part of the problem with above ground T lines is arching/heat/emp, they could easily start a fire if brush isn't cleared around them. That's why when you see them, they are usually high up in the air, right ? Least in my neck of the woods they are. If Cali has them on the ground, someone needs a spanking.

Distribution lines above ground still pose some of the same problems, but to a lessor degree and are more prone to bear the brunt of mother nature. Like I said pro's and con's to each way, but most the time....towns just don't want to spend the money because it is costly to bury.

Looking at a fire scene, and saying why aren't those lines buried....as I've heard on social media lately, is pretty misguided.

motorhead43026

On this day in 1936, harnessing the power of the mighty Colorado River, Hoover Dam begins sending electricity over transmission lines spanning 266 miles of mountains and deserts to run the lights …

Could you imagine the cost to bury these transmission lines.....LOL.

nooshinjohn

And Motor.. I agree with you on that. The cost to bury them would have been astronomical, likely more than the cost of the dam itself... my point is that the lines COULD be run underground, but the COST to do so is so prohibitive as to make it ridiculous to consider.

kevhed72

The idea of allowing private ownership of public lands, and allowing business to "manage" forests by cutting down unhealthy trees, which helps healthy trees grow, is clever marketing and PR created by timber and paper companies long ago.

pitdogg2

For the record I brought up the heat factor. I've seen the local transmission lines coming in to Bloomington Illinois sag in the summer months when the power needs are much more. Those lines were raised this year another 60 plus feet because the area that was scrub land in the 50-60's is now housing and businesses. It was very noticeable that the sag was too close for comfort. Ameren took down the old 4 legged towers and put these huge hexagonal type of towers to replace them. Call me crazy but I for one do not want to live under those lines. The buzz that is there 24/7 is insanely loud in the summer. In fact there were times you could stand outside with a 4' fluorescent tube and that sucker would glow a bit just holding it in your hand. No amount of power conditioning would remove that noise I'm betting, i could be wrong it won't be the first or the last;)

BlueFox

pitdogg2 wrote: »

In fact there were times you could stand outside with a 4' fluorescent tube and that sucker would glow a bit just holding it in your hand.

When I was the Navy we would verify the radar in the F4B was working by holding a flourescent light bulb and see if it lit up. That hasn't affected me in any way. LOL.

Back to the fire. The air is still unhealthy in the Bay Area, and is expected to stay that way into next week. This is the start of the rainy season, and so far nothing.

pitdogg2

Mud slide season will not be far behind.

mrloren

When San Diego Greed and Extortion was planning the "Sun Rise Power Link" They wanted to put some of it underground. This is the main line from AZ to SD. The environmental lawsuits lined up. It's all above ground now.

Weather Channel say's Rain in the bay area on Wednesday and we might get a bit down south.

Clipdat

The firefighters have made it to the half way point, the Camp Fire is now 50% contained.

Unfortunately the death toll has increased to 71, with a whopping 1,011 people missing.

Air quality is still listed as "Very Unhealthy" in the bay area, and I can confirm that.

There's not much of a smell to the air now, as I believe the larger carbon based molecules that smell like burning have somewhat dissipated or dispersed. Unfortunately there's now an ultra fine white haze in the air. This is the tiny particulate matter that's especially damaging even though it doesn't "smell bad". The particles are so tiny that they bypass some of the body's natural filtration capability, and go straight into the deepest part of your lungs.

The air is getting to my wife and I and we're starting to feel health issues as a result. Chest pain, eye and throat irritation, and a general feeling of being unwell like malaise or fatigue.

Clipdat

I'm not a religious man. AT ALL. But, I'm even at the point where I'm saying a few "Our Fathers" (the prayer I know by heart thanks to my Grandma when I was a kid) for all the firefighters putting their asses on the line right now.

I encourage you to do the same, if you please.

BlueFox

While the firefighters are certainly deserving of any and all respect and appreciation, I would save the prayers for humanity in general. We have created this mess with our pollution, and now we have to somehow save ourselves.

nooshinjohn

I’m sorry, but I fail to see how pollution has anything to do with this? It is dead brush and trees that should have been properly managed in the first place, combined with what appears to be a failure of some PG&E equipment that created the mess up north. Pollution at the site of the SoCal fire has made a bad situation worse, but unless there was another uncontrolled meltdown at SSFl, pollution didn’t start that fire either.

SIHAB

I heard on the radio that Cal. uses inmates to fight fires. They work right along side the experts. They work together. A dollar a day plus a reduced sentence. The state saves millions of course. Bravery takes many shapes.

afterburnt

Who says you can't ? https://www.tdworld.com/intelligent-undergrounding/ladwp-completes-construction-largest-underground-transmiss