Why are Tube Pre-Amps so Expensive?

delkal

I am slowly converting to separates (I now have a great solid state amp) and started looking at tube preamps. Why are they so expensive? The ones I have been looking at seem to go for about the same price (or just a few hundred less) than a similar tube integrated. I get it that a decent integrated or amp uses expensive transformers and power supplies. But you shouldn't need those in a preamp. Why can't you touch a non iffy / non Chinese pre for under $1000?

I want to stay well under $1000 and I am looking for line stage only. I did see some preamps for around $500 but they were really solid state (or passive) with a tube buffer. Plus many of them used surface mounted components (I don't like that but is that really bad?)

F1nut

Good SS pre amps cost more than a grand too.

mhardy6647

It is difficult to make a good sounding and quiet vacuum tube preamp.

That said, this is very reasonably priced and is not bad (indeed, it is not a toy), with two catches.

1. It is battery operated (solves one problem but creates a different one).
2. You have to build it yourself.

https://bottlehead.com/product/quickie-1-1-battery-powered-directly-heated-tube-preamplifier-kit/



The 3S4 tubes it uses (which are, in full disclosure, pentodes, not triodes) are inexpensive and plentiful. They also tend to be microphonic, but they're cheap enough that one may acquire a passel of them and select a couple of nonmicrophonic ones.

I use a passive autoformer volume control and source switch ahead of my (vacuum tube) power amplifier because I rather literally cannot afford a good enough sounding preamp (vacuum tube or solid state) to be worth adding to the system.

tonyb

Good receivers cost over a grand too, most anything with a label of "good" cost more. Also depends on what ya want with bells and whistles. Used markets are where it's at for tubed pre's. Look for a Cary DJH, usually around 5-6 bones. Cary slp 03 can go for about 800. Once in a blue moon you'll see a Joule for under a grand. Dodd is another, Melos, some older CJ stuff, Belles....many good pre's can be had under a grand. New....you'd have to stick to the Chinese stuff.

delkal

I understand the price for something "good" is relative. For some a $1000 pre is unheard of and for others that is the minimum they would have in their garage rig. I wouldn't say a grand is out of the question but I question why a line stage only Pre needs to be that much (and no, I don't need a tape loop either)..........Maybe it does, I just don't see it yet.

mhardy6647 wrote: »

It is difficult to make a good sounding and quiet vacuum tube preamp.

That said, this is very reasonably priced and is not bad (indeed, it is not a toy), with two catches.

1. It is battery operated (solves one problem but creates a different one).
2. You have to build it yourself.

https://bottlehead.com/product/quickie-1-1-battery-powered-directly-heated-tube-preamplifier-kit/



The 3S4 tubes it uses (which are, in full disclosure, pentodes, not triodes) are inexpensive and plentiful. They also tend to be microphonic, but they're cheap enough that one may acquire a passel of them and select a couple of nonmicrophonic ones.

I use a passive autoformer volume control and source switch ahead of my (vacuum tube) power amplifier because I rather literally cannot afford a good enough sounding preamp (vacuum tube or solid state) to be worth adding to the system.

That one is new to me. And if it sounds decent is certainly a bargain at $100. Not sure if batteries are for me though. Looking at bottleheads other preamps another is $500 then it shoot up to $1100 (for a kit).

I might have to start looking at passives too.

tonyb

By Bells and whistles, I mean a phono, a subwoofer output jack, remote. Many tube linestages are bare bones, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. My Joule la-100 has no remote, but I use the volume dial on another component so makes no difference to me.

tonyb

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis930a8-audio-electronics-by-cary-audio-ae-3-tube?refsource=hifishark

http://tmraudio.com/components/preamplifiers/conrad-johnson-pv10al-stereo-preamplifier/

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ele/d/sonic-frontiers-sfc-1/6645797287.html

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649440393-mapletree-ultra-4a-se/

delkal

tonyb wrote: »

Good receivers cost over a grand too, most anything with a label of "good" cost more. Also depends on what ya want with bells and whistles. Used markets are where it's at for tubed pre's. Look for a Cary DJH, usually around 5-6 bones. Cary slp 03 can go for about 800. Once in a blue moon you'll see a Joule for under a grand. Dodd is another, Melos, some older CJ stuff, Belles....many good pre's can be had under a grand. New....you'd have to stick to the Chinese stuff.

tonyb wrote: »

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis930a8-audio-electronics-by-cary-audio-ae-3-tube?refsource=hifishark

http://tmraudio.com/components/preamplifiers/conrad-johnson-pv10al-stereo-preamplifier/

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ele/d/sonic-frontiers-sfc-1/6645797287.html

Thanks for the suggestions and the links. I will have to start researching them.

decal

Here ya go................
http://www.schiit.com/products/saga

Clipdat

As a Saga owner, I wouldn't really consider the Saga a "tube preamp" in the traditional sense of the phrase.

Yes, it uses a single 6SN7 as a buffer, but it imparts little to no tube characteristic in my experience. I can switch back and forth between passive and buffer while listening and I cannot perceive any difference. This is when using a vintage Sylvania chrome dome tube.

decal wrote: »

Here ya go................
http://www.schiit.com/products/saga

decal

Well, that's what it's advertised as.

Clipdat

I've never seen it "advertised" anywhere though!

decal wrote: »

Well, that's what it's advertised as.

decal

A website is not advertising? That's a new one on me.

delkal

I was looking at the Schiit Saga. The general consensus is the tube does very little (if anything). Reading up on it it is less clear what it sounds like and if it would be a "good" preamp. Seems like most of the reviews are from the digital / computer guys and they say nothing about sounstage, imaging, etc.


Thanks everyone for some of the recommendations. I was not familiar with some of the pres mentioned. Looks like I have a lot of research to do!

mhardy6647

The Saga doesn't, AFAIK, have a gain stage. It is an attenuator, source selector, and a switchable buffer. The Freya seems to be a full-fledged, active preamp (although I am not 100% sure). If nothing else, it has more tubes in it than the Saga It is "made" in the USA -- although read their fine print.

Made in USA. Really.
By “made in USA,” we mean made in USA. The vast majority of the total production cost of Freya—chassis, boards, assembly, etc—goes to US companies manufacturing in the US.

The electrical parts in it are pretty much the same as in everything else you would buy today. You're paying relatively more for the chassis, board(s) and physical assembly, so you're also paying relatively less for the stuff you're going to hear. It's a zero sum game.

The Freya is also not really inexpensive -- at that price, I'd be looking at other, better established options.

Bottlehead stuff is good IMO/IME -- but their kits do get pretty expensive pretty quickly. There's actually an unbuilt original Foreplay preamp here -- but that's another story entirely.

Battery power is attractive because it eliminates the AC power supply as a source of hum and noise. In a low current drain application (preamps, phono preamps) it may be ideal, although, of course, the batteries will need maintenance.

heiney9

Look for an Eastern Electric Mini-Max. Not real common as most people keep them. It's one of the best (used) sub $1K tube pre-amps going. Extremely responsive to tube rolling. Uses tubes that won't break the bank (12AU7/ECC82). Solid build and it sounds like a unit almost twice its price.

I thoroughly enjoyed mine when I had it, only got rid of it to move up the higher end Eastern Electric Avant tube pre.

Keep in mind tube rolling is a must (IMO) if you are going to get the best results, so figure that into the budget as well. Also IMO, don't bother with tube gear if you are going to leave the stock tubes in. In general they are not close to tubes from the good 'ole days as far as longevity and especially that magical tube sound.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/easternelectric_minimax.htm

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0503/easternelectric.htm

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/eelectric/preamps.html

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/minimax_pre_e.html

http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/minimax.html

https://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Preamplifier-Tube/Eastern-Electric/MiniMax/amp/61551.html

Just a couple links to whet your appetite. Lots has been written and lots of user impressions all over the web, get your learn on.

H9

dromunds

Yeah, the price of (good) tubes has risen dramatically but tube rolling is a must to get the best results.

heiney9

dromunds wrote: »

Yeah, the price of (good) tubes has risen dramatically but tube rolling is a must to get the best results.

Yeah, they have. Especially "holy grail" type tubes. I am also finding certain tubes just aren't for sale as much as 3-4 years ago.

Although the 12AU7/ECC82 and equivalents are still relatively inexpensive compared to other signal tubes. But they have increased a lot.

Atleast with the Mini-max you can buy single tubes since each slot is a different part of the circuit so no need for pairs.

H9

Dawgfish

Another good option is a YS Audio Symphonies + R tube preamp. They are a handmade by a gentleman in Hong Kong with really nice build features such as a tube rectifier and point to point wiring. Very good quality parts are used in its construction. It's remote control to boot and can be had new in the $800-900 range and used in the $400-450 dollar range.

I own one of these and still use it in a backup system. The sound is excellent and it punches way above its weight. I find it to sound superior to a modified Anthem Pre-1L that I have (another great budget tube amp). I also compared it to a friend's Conrad Johnson PV-10 for several days in my system. The YS Audio preamp completely curb stomped the CJ and both were using quality NOS tubes. I was really shocked at the results. It was the pre in my main system for years before just recently being replaced by a Joule Electra LA-100. The JE is superior to the YS Audio in two areas, bass definition and absolute detail. Other than those two areas the YS Audio is right there with the Joule. It's a sleeper of a tube preamp.

Msabot1

Why?? simply put,nice things cost money..always have..always will...

Clipdat

Looks like they are "advertising" it as a "passive/active remote preamp", versus a "tube preamp".

As mentioned, it doesn't use tubes in the gain stage. It's a well implemented buffer that doesn't color the sound, but could be beneficial in situations where long cable runs are required.

decal wrote: »

A website is not advertising? That's a new one on me.

tonyb

Msabot1 wrote: »

Why?? simply put,nice things cost money..always have..always will...

Yep, just a fact of life.

That Counterpoint for a tad over 5 bones is a steal posted farther up. Good call on the EE mini-max from Brock also. YS Audio is no slouch of a company either. So many good choices, flavors, under a G note, pick your poison, dive in.

Clipdat

I like everything about it except the fact that it has a balance control on the front panel.

Dawgfish wrote: »

Another good option is a YS Audio Symphonies + R tube preamp.

tonyb

Most 2 channel pre's have a balanced control, why would that turn you off ?

Clipdat

I'm just not a huge fan of balance or tone controls on preamps.

marvda1

let's just say you don't have the ideal room, one speaker is close to a corner and the other opens out to the kitchen.
what do you do?????????????? balance control.

pitdogg2

Clipdat wrote: »

I'm just not a huge fan of balance or tone controls on preamps.

no one says you have to use them. Many have a switch that take them out of circuit as well.

Viking64

pitdogg2 wrote: »

no one says you have to use them. Many have a switch that take them out of circuit as well.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqJgCUmP6DQ

Clipdat

If the tone controls are defeatable with a physical bypass toggle, or a soft "pure direct" type toggle, then I'm OK with that.

I've never seen a defeatable balance control.

pitdogg2 wrote: »

no one says you have to use them. Many have a switch that take them out of circuit as well.

kharp1

delkal wrote: »

I understand the price for something "good" is relative. For some a $1000 pre is unheard of and for others that is the minimum they would have in their garage rig. I wouldn't say a grand is out of the question but I question why a line stage only Pre needs to be that much (and no, I don't need a tape loop either)..........Maybe it does, I just don't see it yet.

Obviously, you haven't priced quality parts lately. Good quality capacitors can cost in the hundreds for a single cap. That's not counting any wiring, resistors, jacks, etc. Then, there is the design phase. My labor cost on the Joule upgrade was equal to the parts, and, I think he was very conservative on his time logged.

TEAforONE

Take a look at Aric Audio. Well under a grand if you don't want/need a phono stage. I own the Unlimited,and love it! Also take a look a Mapletree Audio. I've never heard one,but they seem to be highly regarded.