Turntables

kharp1

Was eyeballing a Denon DP-60L for $695 with both tone arms and a Ortofon X3-MC cart...in very good condition, does that seem reasonable? Fair place to start? He sent me a video of it in action. Lives a few hours away and I wanted to verify the condition and working order before I drove 300 miles.

halo

@kharp1 - I started to get "back" into vinyl a few years ago when I was reviewing a table in exchange for the unit itself.

What followed?

Asking a lot of questions to those who know a lot more about record players and vinyl playback than I do.

I did lay out quite a bit of money for record prep & maintenance.

To get the most out of them, you have to clean the records. The best job I've been able to do is by purchasing new records and washing them before I play them.

Initially, I started with a SpinClean kit and then I moved on to a RCM MK III + Shop Vac + TergiKleen + Distilled water + Microfiber cloths. After cleaning, the records should go directly into anti static sleeves. Some older records I've cleaned with this method still have plenty of pops and ticks and I'm going to try the wood glue cleaning method on those next.

Before I play each record, I extract them from the anti static sleeve with a Record Butler. Next, I use a Zerostat to try and eliminate the static on the record. Then, I use a Hunt EDA record brush while the vinyl spins on the platter. After each side is played, I clean the stylus with the Onzow.

A separate, stand alone, phono stage/phono pre is a very good idea. The ones that are built into preamps just don't compare. I tried out a Zphono and liked it quite a bit. I also liked the ART DJ Pre II, but I eventually went with a Bottlehead Reduction + Induction kit assembled by @SCompRacer. I have heard a lot of good things about the Schiit Mani.

Yes, cartridges and styli do sound different. That's going to be a synergy thing with the rest of your setup and totally dependent on what you like. There are no absolutes. Not everyone is going to love the Audio Technica sound nor will everyone love the Grado sound. You honestly have to try a few different things and see what appeals the most to you. Some cartridges support the better styli further up the line so, if you like the sound that brand provides, stick with it and buy some styli instead of different cartridges.

Make sure you have a small level and shims to get your table (the turntable itself; more specifically the platter, level). Isolation is a good idea as well. The more you can dampen the turntable and decouple it from the floor, the better.

You can download protractors for free from vinylengine.com. Invest in a good set of small, precision, screwdrivers and some bent needle nose pliers to make working on/with cartridges easier. You may, or may not, want a record clamp (I use the Clearaudio Clever Clamp).

Purchasing a small digital scale to check the vertical tracking force is a good idea, sometimes the counterweight at the back of the tonearm isn't 100% accurate.

I've gone through 6 turntables in the past 2-years. I've learned a lot but I still have a lot to learn. Many good people here on this forum have offered advice, and so much more, and I cannot thank them enough for that.

I do agree that some things sound better on vinyl. Heaven by the Rolling Stones sounds absolutely wonderful on vinyl and, to me, it sounds sterile and lifeless on digital media.

I got almost all of my turntables shipped to me through the mail (2 were new) and, thankfully, none of them suffered shipping damage. Some had other issues that had to be addressed because of their age or the lack of upkeep by their previous owners.

The most recent addition to my setup is a semi-automatic Technics SL-Q2. It was picked up locally and it was kind of dirty when I got it. I cleaned it up (still am doing some more cleaning to try and make it as purdy as possible) and it's looking good and sounding fabulous. It came with a very highly regarded Shure M91ED cartridge. Now, the Technics SL-Q3 is the same but it's fully automatic. Both feature the quartz lock direct drive. You can operate either one manually if you choose to do so.

Headshells for Technics 'tables are abundant and the plastic overhang gauge (52 mm) for technics turntables makes aligning new cartridges ridiculously easy.

The other thing is the physical media itself. Records are big, bulky, heavy, and fragile. New pressings are pricey and original pressings can be costly as well. There are no shortage of sellers on Amazon or eBay. Goodwill and other thrift stores are good places to look as well. Yard sales, estate sales, etc. You never know when you're going to come across something useful.

FWIW, I consider my vinyl setup to be pretty basic. I have a solid table and a superb phono preamp, a decent method of cleaning new and used vinyl, the tools to maintain my collection and keep it in decent shape, and I have discovered which cartridges I prefer.

halo

kharp1 wrote: »

Was eyeballing a Denon DP-60L for $695 with both tone arms and a Ortofon X3-MC cart...in very good condition, does that seem reasonable? Fair place to start? He sent me a video of it in action. Lives a few hours away and I wanted to verify the condition and working order before I drove 300 miles.

FWIW, my turntable tech thinks pretty highly of the vintage Dual turntables and vintage Rega turntables. I think that some of the vintage Dual machines are within your budget as are Pioneer and Technics.

Dawgfish

kharp1 wrote: »

Was eyeballing a Denon DP-60L for $695 with both tone arms and a Ortofon X3-MC cart...in very good condition, does that seem reasonable? Fair place to start? He sent me a video of it in action. Lives a few hours away and I wanted to verify the condition and working order before I drove 300 miles.

Yes that price is in the ball park, especially since it has both tone arm tubes. Most of the time they are missing one of the tubes. I personally like the fact the "S" arm has a removable headshell. One can have different carts premounted on different headshells which makes swapping carts out a snap if you want to experiment with different carts. The DP-60L is a highly regarded deck and easily competes with modern decks in the $2000 range. The only negative is availability of parts if something should go wrong.

Add a good quality phone pre, record clamp, and record cleaning machine and you're set. I'm a big fan of the Jolida JD-9 phono preamp. You can find modded units for $300-$600 and they sound fantastic! Another plus of the JD-9 is it's highly adjustable and compatible with virtually any cartridge you care to pair it with.

kharp1

My thoughts are to use the Carver C-19's phonograph stage and see how it works out. I have a few different 6dj8 tubes to play with on it.

What the heck am I getting in to here?????

dromunds

We all pretty much used the internal phone stages in our receivers/preamps back in the day and were happy. That said, the zphono external phono stage can be had very reasonably (less than $100 used shipped if you are patient) and is a significant step up for little cash, others are bigger bang for maybe more buck. My advice would be patience is a virtue. Take your time and research TT's and cartridges. One of my favorite bang for the buck cartridges is the Denon DL-110 recommended above. Every once in a while one will pop up on the forum for $75 used. I also agree with the advice regarding a good used Technics direct drive TT, excellent bang for the buck, but make sure its a good everyday worker. My college roommate says his Dual 1229 is still his favorite TT. I wouldn't pop for some expensive TT right out of the box. I mean I guess you could probably flip it for little or no loss later, but in my experience you'll be learning as you go so why blow a big wad immediately? Some of the expensive tables never did it for me anyway, but I'm a cheap azz. Lol. I currently have a Denon DP72L table but I put a Jelco 750 arm on it. Much better than the stock Denon arm which is their weak point IMHO. Its a bit more advanced I suppose in some ways to mod an arm onto a plinth but just exemplifies the possibilities you'll encounter on the vinyl path. If you are patient one of the forum members will have something for you at a Polkie price. Personally, I prefer a refurbed or minty everyday worker vintage table over much of the current production stuff. That being said, though, I have a current production Jelco 750 arm, so its hard to generalize.

msg

kharp1 wrote: »

My thoughts are to use the Carver C-19's phonograph stage and see how it works out. I have a few different 6dj8 tubes to play with on it.
What the heck am I getting in to here?????

Too late.

pitdogg2

C19 has a good phono section no sweat there.

Mikey081057

Still love the Music Hall mmf 5.3se and the Soundsmith Carmen with my Budgie.

SCompRacer

My friend Carl has a Denon DP-59L. Very nice table and sounds great in his system. You'd have to research pricing on that 60L. Audiokarma and vinyl engine are great places to get the skinny on vintage tables and prices paid. You can research ended auctions on ebay, but I think folks pay too much for stuff there.

It was more than a few years ago, a friend lusted for my Nottingham Space 294. He had a nice table, but wanted a better one. After I built my current turntable, I took the Space 294 there and put his cartridge from his table on it for a more even comparison. There was a noticeable improvement so he bought the table. He had a Music Hall pa1.2, which is not an expensive phono stage.

SCompRacer

Mikey081057 wrote: »

Still love the Music Hall mmf 5.3se and the Soundsmith Carmen with my Budgie.

I love the wood on that!

ALL212

@SCompRacer "It's all about overhang." True dat...

Stay away from the Technics SL1300 MK2. Lifter cylinder is normally blown. Good TT but the lifter won't work - ever.

Love my TT - someday I'll bump up but for now the Music Hall mmf-5 is working for me.

halo

ALL212 wrote: »

@SCompRacer "It's all about overhang." True dat...

Stay away from the Technics SL1300 MK2. Lifter cylinder is normally blown. Good TT but the lifter won't work - ever.

Love my TT - someday I'll bump up but for now the Music Hall mmf-5 is working for me.

Well, I cannot use a fully manual 'table. Got to be semi-auto or full auto for me. I like the "vintage" 'tables from the 70's & 80's > new production. YMMV. Glad you're digging the mmf-5!

kharp1

Seems there's been a lot of turntable talk on the forum lately and there's been a lot of great info shared. It's a little overwhelming with all that's involved with the setup, care and maintenance of both the table, and it's components, as well as the vinyl. I'm going to stay on the sidelines a little longer and keep researching and picking up information until I get to a level where I feel a little more comfortable with what I'm getting in to. Realizing that even then that it'll still be a learning curve. I read DarqueKnight's post in the "Electronics" section, as well as a few of the other posts on TT's, and I'm blown away by the progression of the "madness" and how far you can go with it. I'm going to research tables further and learn what I can about carts/styli and their general characteristics. as well as other matters TT, before deciding where I'm going to jump in.

Having said that, if anyone here sees or hears of a good starting setup please hit me up with a PM.

nooshinjohn

Don't forget about the bottomless pit we warned you about. Fortunately I found bottom here, but I can assure you, many fall even deeper than I did.

kharp1

Is that a Triangle Art? That's a pretty sick bottom. I can't afford to get that sick.

tonyp063

dromunds mentioned a Dual 1229 as being a good table to consider.
I'm going to concur on this as I have one that was a craigslist find.

Sent it to Bill at fixmydual.com so he could work his magic on it & I'm *quite* satisfied with the results.

It perfectly suits my setup & my ears for not a lot of coin.

Dawgfish

Nice John! See you got an outer ring. Whatcha think?

nooshinjohn

You guys should drop by and take her for a spin. I think it is amazing.

[Deleted User]

You don't have to spend more than $1000 to get a decent vinyl setup. Not the pinnacle of analog reproduction but a very listenable TT.

K_M

My idea on vinyl. Very simple.

Do not expect "too much" from it. Many vinyl lovers will kinda overly push vinyl due to being a bit too excited about it.

But on the other hand, to not believe those that say it is problem riddled and noisy and crappy either.

It takes a lot of work, time, patience, and money to get it to sound pretty decent.
It is fun, can be work and can be frustrating all at the same time.

The variance between equipment can be huge in comparison to digital playback devices.
We inherited some stuff a while back, got it all going and had a blast with it. Some records are/were mastered better or simply sound better maybe due to the age of the tapes being much older today or mastering or a few reasons.

mikeyb128

"Overly Push vinyl from being too excited about it" lol

I don't push vinyl because it is expensive. And most do not have the patience for it. Vinyl is like a relationship, you have to start off slow, get to know it, you can't dive into a marriage first day and expect great results.

K_M

mikeyb128 wrote: »

"Overly Push vinyl from being too excited about it" lol

I don't push vinyl because it is expensive. And most do not have the patience for it. Vinyl is like a relationship, you have to start off slow, get to know it, you can't dive into a marriage first day and expect great results.

looking back, I mean I like it in some ways for sure, but if he had not inherited it, I would have never bought into it, if that makes sense?

[Deleted User]

There is just as many crappy sounding LPs as there are crappy CDs. The thing is that the crappy sounding might be the music you enjoy. You really have don't to listen to audiophile recording you don't really like just because they impress your friends.

tratliff

K_M wrote: »

My idea on vinyl. Very simple.

Do not expect "too much" from it. Many vinyl lovers will kinda overly push vinyl due to being a bit too excited about it.

But on the other hand, to not believe those that say it is problem riddled and noisy and crappy either.

It takes a lot of work, time, patience, and money to get it to sound pretty decent.
It is fun, can be work and can be frustrating all at the same time.

The variance between equipment can be huge in comparison to digital playback devices.
We inherited some stuff a while back, got it all going and had a blast with it. Some records are/were mastered better or simply sound better maybe due to the age of the tapes being much older today or mastering or a few reasons.

Not sure I really agree. I am a lover of all things audio media. Be it redbook, sacd, digital, vinyl... Hell even AM/FM for that matter. And really considering moving into reel-to-reel.

I have many sacd's that sound the best on my system, but I also have many lp's that sound the best. The thing that keeps me interested is finding the right media for the right music and using that media to maximize system performance.

Do I push vinyl. Not really. I listen to many systems in many different environments. My goal is best sound reproduction.

As you stated vinyl can be frustrating. I don't disagree but it is also very rewarding.

I find the variance in equipment is no different in whatever media flavor you choose. I have 3 digital sources and all 3 have different characteristics. I have 2 cartridges. Both have different sound signatures. Not much different than tubes vs. SS, cables, amp vs. amp, pre vs. pre and speaker vs. speaker.

The point is vinyl is a great source. The expense is whatever you want to put into it. But I would recommend staying in the same class as the rest of the system. A $10k turntable is not a wise purchase for someone who has a budget consumer grade system. But a sub $1k turntable would be a great investment.

nooshinjohn

Question for the day... is there any thread K_M can go to without crapping in it?

tratliff

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Question for the day... is there any thread K_M can go to without crapping in it?

That would be a big "NO"!

motorhead43026

^^The answer is no. Just follow the shet stains.

K_M

TForan wrote: »

You don't have to spend more than $1000 to get a decent vinyl setup. Not the pinnacle of analog reproduction but a very listenable TT.

My favourite, is made by DUAL, and from the early 80's.
It is the 1228 but it is a changer, we use with the small spindle for one record at a time, and it has the Ortofon cartridge.

Warped records Always play on this one quite easily, and it has a very smooth nice sound.
Something can be said of nice vintage stuff!

It does not really quite equal the detail of our newer better ones, but has a great sound and appealing look.

We also have an antique Garrard, that sound wise, is a bit iffy, Think it needs some work, a lot or Rumble when playing stuff, but it is over 50 years old.
Plus its arm feel quite heavy compared to the newer ones, scared to ruin records with it.

Really love the more antique ones, as far as asthetics and fun.

mikeyb128

Doesn't sound like a KM post to me? ^^ second personality maybe?