Turntables

kharp1

After chatting with a fellow Polkie recently I decided to post here in hopes of getting some solid info on Turntables. Having never had a "quality" TT setup, and, having not had one for 30 years I'm not really sure where I need to start, and, with what equipment I need. I know some of the basics...a TT, phono stage and an album...beyond that is where it gets a little confusing. At what point does an "entry level" TT become a waste of money. At what price point is the best to look to get a solid starting setup so that future expenditures aren't backtracking and covering the same ground thereby wasting money. Are most cartridges interchangeable? Is there a VHS/Betamax thing that happens with cartridges? I know that stylus can run in to the thousands and that's a place I don't want to go, so, what is a good stylus that even a TT "snob" could live with? Are stylus like tubes in that each will give you a different sound and that some are better suited to certain tables than others?

What accessories are critical? What type of cleaner/cleaning products are must have?

Is direct drive better/worse than belt drive? From what I've seen in my research it looks like most everything (at least in a price point I'm looking at) is belt drive. I've read about belt slippage on certain units...is this a common thing?

I've looked at Music Hall, Rega, Pro-Ject, Shinola, VPI. EAT and Clearaudio with prices form $250 up to $2500. I wouldn't be comfortable spending $2500 on a TT, but, if I spend $250 and then have to spend another $1000-$1500 within a short period of time to get the sound I like I'd rather spend the $2500 upfront.

The way I feel now a TT wouldn't be my main listening source, however, I know there are albums I hear and my mind tells me "I bet this would sound great on vinyl" and I know the potential risks of saying "never."

Any info that table owners can add would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Kerry

nooshinjohn

Warning!!! This is the deepest rabbit hole in the audio forest. All I can offer quickly tonight is for a used budget of 2k or less, you can get most of what you are looking for. Getting new equipment, not so much. I will sleep on some suggestions for you and post again in the morning.

pitdogg2

Rabbit hole fully opened. Back when i had a TT and a good LP collection say about 1992. I used to say something very similar.
I bet that would sound awesome on Compact Disc.
Good luck Ryan on your endeavor.

Oh yea better snatch up that clamp...lol

Wardsweb

My first suggestion is finding dealers, friends and friends of friends within driving distance where you can hear as many different table as possible and talk to them about the setup. This is part of the learning curve to get you up to speed on the different types of tables, the terminology, the cost and ball park sound. I say ball park because each system's synergy with affect the sound to a degree. For instance, you can buy the better table you may have heard but not buy the same phono stage and realize the sound changed some. Keep in mind, only you can determine how good is good enough. One last thing, your vinyl is going to play a big part in the sound and your listening enjoyment. Play old dirty or scratchy records and you get noise, pop and clicks. Play clean vinyl and you get only music.

SCompRacer

Basically….

Belts can stretch and flex. The stylus does not see a steady force in the record groove, it varies based on frequencies recorded. Using a speed checker with needle in the groove is the only way to measure speed accurately. If you see speed variances, depending on severity, it can affect sound quality.

A light belt drive platter is easier to slow and quicker to accelerate to speed. A heavy platter is harder to slow and harder to accelerate if slowed.

Direct drive and idler drives have more torque and can plow through grooves without varying speed. However the high torque motors can put vibes into the turntable that must be addressed. Direct or idler drive in a hollow thin plastic or wood chassis will not sound as good as one in a heavy wood or damped plastic chassis. It’s all in the engineering.

If you choose a direct drive get one that is quartz locked. TT manufacturers used various terms to describe it, like PLL, servo, etc. That is the platter speed is monitored and constantly adjusts the motor to maintain correct speed while record is playing.

Different stylus types get deeper in the groove of record but cost more. Better cartridges extract more info and cost more.

Basically, two types of cartridges, MM or Moving Magnet and MC Moving Coil. There are high and mid output MM cartridges, like 3mV, 5mV. There are high mid and low level MC output cartridges. Low output, like .3mV, require much more gain than a 5mV cartridge.

Cartridges require high amplification. You are dealing with mV or milli volts. Average MM phono pre amp is ~40 to 45dB of gain. MC is 50dB and higher.

MM will have a replaceable stylus. MC, replace entire cartridge or send for re-tipping.

You have P mount cartridges which are plug and play onto the arm. The other is ½” mount which requires proper placement with either a gauge to position stylus properly in head shell or with a protractor where you align cartridge to hit null points on the protractor.

It's all about overhang. That is the stylus in relation to center of spindle. That is determined by the arm manufacturer. The thing is not all arms will swing over center of spindle so you can't do the overhang adjustment on all tables. That is what the head shell gauge or protractor does.

There are different alignment methods. Examples, Stevenson, Baerwald. It's all math to reduce IGD or inner groove distortion as the pivoted arm moves closer to spindle. Again, determined by arm manufacturer. P mount cartridge, plug and play....

Common TT arms are pivoted, then there are linear tracking arms.

You can hand clean and micro fiber dry records. Best is wash and vacuum clean records. Regarding micro fiber towels, they can be damaged by harsh detergents and drying with too much heat. I wash my micro fiber towels for the car and house with special soap and air dry them. The fibers close up if dried too hot, no fixing them.

A stylus force gauge is a good thing to have. Just watch where you buy as electronic ones sold by audio places are usually marked up higher just cause it's audio gear.

Protractors and head shell gauges are usually lost. You can download protractors. Best are the ones that have a scale you can measure after printing. If the scale does not measure properly, it was printed incorrectly.

For best results, you want to use a protractor with the alignment method designed for the table. You can experiment with other alignment methods, but usually best to stick with the TT or arm manufacturer recommended method.

Regarding your budget, you can put together a real nice sounding setup for $2500. Remember though, you need a table, cartridge and phono pre amp.

You can beat depreciation and get higher in the TT chain by purchasing used, but as always buyer beware. Buying used or demo through a dealer can be less risky than from a private seller.

[Deleted User]

Don't do it!

Msabot1

Kerry...just a couple of words...I have a number of TT's that go back to the late 60's to current production...Zero 100... 1229... MMF...Sota..Rega..The one thing they all have in common though is the ability to handle your vinyl well..Never scrimp on equipment...always make sure the tonearm,platter,motor,is up to par...Your vinyl is an investment..poor tracking and tracking weight will destroy grooves in just a couple of spins...Do your homework..and you will be enjoying your LP's far into the future...just a thought..

soundfreak1

Here's my suggestion: find an technics sl1600/1700/1800 used should run from 25. To 300 depending upon condition and servicing. Good direct drive Motors reliable with a decent tonearm. Then find you a Denon dl-110 MC cartridge should be able to purchase for 200 or less the high output Denon doesn't need a head amp so for 500 or less you're all set to begin. try this setup for a while until you get accustomed to it and see if you want to stay with vinyl. Then it's just a matter of how much money you want to spend the setup will sound exceptional on the right speakers and amp combinations. If you find like most of us do you can't live without it then you can upgrade the turntable for a better tone arm, then you can upgrade to a low output MC cartridge and then a real good phono preamp and you're Off to the Races this allows you to kind of dip your feet in the water first before you spend crazy money and find out you just don't like jumping up and down changing records. Personally the sound quality I'm getting I don't mind jumping up and down every 15 minutes. Also with this setup gives you the ability to sell it later if it's not for you for what you paid for it that way there's no harm no foul if it's not for you.

[Deleted User]

Vinyl has outlasted 8 track, cassette, DAT.
Reel to Reel is great but not common. New reel to reel tape cost $400.00 each.
CD may go the way of the Dodo bird as well...

Vinyl outperforms CD often on my system. It just sounds better.
I have a modest TT and Pre amp (relatively speaking)

There is price to pay of course.

mhardy6647

FWIW I think it is easy to seriously overthink vinyl reproduction -- i.e., playin' rekkids.

My canonical advice for a tyro, whenever possible, is find a good solid used direct drive Japanese turntable (e.g., a Technics SL-D2, entry level but it does everything right and nothing seriously wrong), put a good modern cartridge on it, get a few decent quality (new or used) record albums containing, ideally, music that the person really loves -- and give it a go.

One caveat, since record players do have precision moving parts, there is stuff to wear out. That's the one drawback/risk to buying used. Were you (the OP) to go that route, do yourself & the poor old turntables of the world a favor and buy local. 97.4% of all sellers in the world today* have utterly no clue as to the proper packing of a turntable to survive 21st Century shipping.

Alternatively, if a person has an OCD streak, so to speak (and I don't mean to be glib or facetious, believe it or not!), go the full vinyl monty and obsess about everything. Sort of like the sports of golf and fly fishing, there are nearly infinite opportunities for improvement in the reproduction of sound on a vinyl (or shellac, for that matter) record.

FWIW, I slowly drift towards the obsessive with playing rekkids -- but mostly I just like to play 'em and listen to 'em.

____________
* As an aside, it may be worth noting here that 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Msabot1

If you are looking starter...Pioneer PL518... Durable and handles records well..If you can find a decent one..and suitable cartridge...

motorhead43026

Technics SL1350, another solid performer.

mikeyb128

Definitely buy used gear. And I have to agree this is the deepest rabbit hole in audio, but it's fun, tinker with everything, and get rewarded with great sound. It's definitely not for everyone and takes some serious dedication. I tried vinyl once and gave up, took a break, and bought a nice dac and streamer. Came back to vinyl, invested a nice chunk into it, and I love it.

kharp1

Lots of great info here, thanks guys. @SCompRacer you may have sufficiently scared me off . In all honesty, it may be more work than I want to put in to it at the present time. I had vinyl from my past at my parents house, but, I don't know if it's still there or not. I've looked around and I know there are a few albums I would want that I've seen in EP. I know they're pricier, but, my thinking is "so what?" Tubes have been a learning curve and require more attention than SS equipment, obviously, and I'm not sure I'm ready to take on the responsibility of maintaining a TT after hearing all that's involved.

There are no dealers within 75 miles of my house. I would have to travel to Indy or Cincinnati to find a dealer, and I'm not even sure about that. I know no one in my area that uses a TT so that leaves me out in the wind there. That's why I'm picking your brains here.

Will keep doing my research and keep an eye out for one of the tables mentioned as a solid starting point without committing too much in case it's not for me.

Keep the info coming, I'll take all I can get while I'm pondering.

SCompRacer

kharp1 wrote: »

Will keep doing my research and keep an eye out for one of the tables mentioned as a solid starting point without committing too much in case it's not for me.

Good call.

To scare wasn’t my intention. Maybe TMI based on 52 years of invested ownership?

Good luck in your quest!

kharp1

Just the right amount of proper fear...respect maybe? Know enough to know I don't know enough yet.

SCompRacer

mhardy6647 wrote: »

97.4% of all sellers in the world today* have utterly no clue as to the proper packing of a turntable to survive 21st Century shipping.

.

The horror....





Then again, there can be beauty...it's just a tool, but some are beautiful.

An early Nottingham Spacedeck I once owned.



A Linn LP12...

kharp1

I just looked at one of these on US Audio Mart. Also looked at a Denon DP-60L

txcoastal1

kharp1 wrote: »

Just the right amount of proper fear...respect maybe? Know enough to know I don't know enough yet.

DSkip wrote: »

Kerry your thoughts are similar to mine. Vinyl scares me because of ignorance and the cash outlay to get it right and build a library. I would like to be in vinyl at one point but I feel like I need to focus on digital and get all that right before tackling another source. It seems both fields are constantly evolving.

It's another audio drug...and Kerry, you're OCD like me on taking everything to the next level

Just have the mind set of $1k on the TT, $500 cart, $500 preamp $500 cables
$800 cleaning, etc

kharp1

You guys are responsible friends...here I want to jab the needle in and push the plunger and you're staging an intervention of sorts.

I say, as of now, that I wouldn't want my entire listening experience to be vinyl. I do know some recordings scream to me that they are meant for vinyl. I'm thinking of some of the thick, lush 70's rock (Fleetwood Mac Rumors stands out among others, Pink Floyd, etc) that needs to be heard on good vinyl. I don't think I'd ever want to fully give up digital as I like a lot of the digital I have, particularly the ease of use. But, I do recognize that I have a somewhat obsessive personality with a side of addictive tendencies. Not a good recipe for soup.

Plus, it doesn't address my desire for heirloom amp and possible speaker switch. I wonder if I have an audio form of ADD?

mikeyb128

It's possible I stumbled upon system synergy with my dac, I feel that was pretty easy. Vinyl seems more tricky, but maybe because there is so much to learn, the arm + cart matching is now coming to me (I have the formulas memorized), as a newbie myself it can be confusing. As Mhardy said, don't over complicate things, which I agree many do. My system is very sensitive to changes, so vinyl sounded like **** at one point, but once I learned how to match and tune everything it has been a lot of fun. Who knew you could clean a record and be rewarded with a black background, almost no pops and clicks.... zero fuzzz, just great sound.

Manticore

I'm sure this is real helpful...

voltz

Check out the prices of New vinyl and you will runaway!

funny how a $500 TT will set you back 1-2k a year.

[Deleted User]

"will set you back 1-2k a year."

One to two thousand LPs?

msg

Kerry, repeat after me...
"I can quit anytime I want!"

It's just something you'll want to practice a few times in the mirror. You know, so it sounds believable.

SCompRacer

You get what you accept. While my vinyl may appear complicated, vinyl playback is no fuss. All the hard work was done building it right. Ask anyone that has been here. Select record, put on platter, turn the table on, dry brush, drop the stylus. Sometimes, turn it up to 11. Dip the stylus in the Onzow Zerodust stylus cleaner after every side. When it looks like a teenagers forehead, clean the Onzow.

Clean the record, and handle by edges. Stick it in a VPI record sleeve. No Cheetos or pizza rolls while handling records. Simple.

I guess with dealers so far away, used record stores are the same?

SCompRacer

I see you starting like.....




and ending up like...

pitdogg2

Kerry's teetering on the edge of the abyss.
This will be fun to watch.
Nudge nudge

SCompRacer

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Kerry's teetering on the edge of the abyss.
This will be fun to watch.
Nudge nudge

LOL

Our cat is into vinyl too....

pitdogg2

With a cat like that i wouldn't argue too much.
He is one kool cat Rich

FestYboy

As all cats do: they fits, they sits!