Turntables

mhardy6647

kharp1 wrote: »

I've read several different blogs and articles about entry level tables and they all have fairly high praise for the Music Hall, Pro-Ject, Rega, Clearaudio, and Sota as being able to hold their own especially considering the money spent.

They're all pretty polarizing -- actually, the amount of vitriol that folks generate about this or that (typically, modern) tt model or brand is kind of distressingly impressive

I think the Regas are OK (FWIW) -- with all of the above-mentioned brands, one gets into pretty serious $ pretty quick; levels of expenditure that could purchase (arguably) much better (or, at least, more broadly admired) hardware (new or vintage).

I mean, face it, the Lenco/Thorens TD124/Garrard 301/401/R-O-K/Fairchild fanboys ain't a-gonna be impressed by any of the current entry-level crop (and not without some good reasons).

FestYboy

Ok @mhardy6647, if you had $5-600 budget, where would your money go and why?

Actually, this question is for all of you TT buffs.

For the time being, the source will be attached to my NAD which has an internal phono preamp, then on to my RTA 11ts, so let's just focus on the table and stylus.

mikeyb128

I would buy a used music hall table, those tables are very good for the money (they use all project parts). I have zero experience with vintage tables. I have always wanted a technics sl1200, so that would be a great option as well. Then later on down the road slap a jelco sa750 on it.

motorhead43026

Audio Advisor has some killer deals on Project TT's.

nooshinjohn

Minty clean Yamaha PX-3 would be a great table on the used market. Linear tracking arms are amazing, and for the dollar, I found it very hard to beat.

FestYboy

There's a Sony linear not too far from me...

Maybe it's just me but I always thought that a linear would wear one channel more than the other based on it's inherent design...

mhardy6647

FestYboy wrote: »

Ok @mhardy6647, if you had $5-600 budget, where would your money go and why?

Actually, this question is for all of you TT buffs.

For the time being, the source will be attached to my NAD which has an internal phono preamp, then on to my RTA 11ts, so let's just focus on the table and stylus.

Interesting question.
Mind you, I am far from expert on the topic. Far from expert.

Personally there's nothing new I would recommend in that price range, unfortunately.

If I could find one, I'd buy a midline vintage Technics DD turntable in excellent condition (& local!) and spend the rest of the budget on a cartridge.

Technics made & sold zillions of good to very good DD tts for a reason... well built, decent levels of performance and excellent values.

My first thoughts are something basic: SL-D202 or SL-D2 (although they're a little plastic-y). I like the earlier models, too: SL-1300 or SL-1600. I am particularly enamored of the SL-1100; don't know how prices run on them, though.

I like the quartz-locked SL-Q2 and its kin, too. Heck, I've used one for years. A notch better built than the SL-D2 but the quartz lock may be a mixed blessing if one "wants" (or, perhaps even needs) variable pitch.

I'd avoid the SL-1200 for a plethora of reasons (but there's nothing wrong with the SL-1200, even for "audiophile" uses, despite some claims to the contrary, I'd opine!). The big problems with the SL-1200 family, to me are that they're too expensive (too much name recognition) and many (maybe even most) have been, as they say, "rode hard and put away wet".

The Technics DDs are rugged and will give good performance (good enough, I'd opine, to whet one's appetite for "vinyl" if one indeed has such an appetite to whet!) with minimal fiddling.

The other massmarket Japanese DD tts were generally fine, too, and some of the better ones from, e.g., Denon & JVC were danged nice -- but the prices tend to be high on the nice ones. At 'affordable' (coupla hunnert bucks), by and large, Techics ruled the roost. One exception would be one of the 'concrete base' Kenwoods. Nice tts at reasonable prices still today. I don't have a specific model number: the KD-500 is the one I was thinking of, but it looks like that precise model was sold sans arm.

Thorens would be my other serious consideration, but one's looking at a completely different philosophy, a higher price (again, used/vintage) and considerably more fiddly-ness. Still, they made fine and very serious record players at reasonable prices: Look for a good used TD-145, TD-160, TD-165 or their ilk.

Cartridges? Mmmmmm -- this gets hard because subjective taste in sound may trump any objective assessment. E.g., I don't like the A-T cartridge sound. Haven't heard one yet that I liked. Doesn't mean they're bad cartridges -- just means I don't like 'em.

If a LOMC could be accommodated, the Technics arm is (barely) suitable for a DL-103. A DL-103R or DL-301ii would be better (albeit pricier) choices. I think Denon still sells one reasonably priced HOMC(?) -- is it the DL-160? Might be worth a look.

Otherwise, I'd say "pick your Grado and pick your price point". The Grado moving iron cartridges give much of the lusciousness of a good MC but at a range of price points and with replaceable styli! The only caveat -- I don't know for sure if the (unshielded) Grados exhibit the dreaded "Grado hum" with a Technics DD (never tried the pairing -- to date).

But, heck, I like the sound and generally unfussy demeanor of the Shure M97xe (tho' many folks don't).


So, there you go. A bunch of opinions.
YMMV.

mhardy6647

FestYboy wrote: »

There's a Sony linear not too far from me...

Maybe it's just me but I always thought that a linear would wear one channel more than the other based on it's inherent design...

No. Exactly the opposite, at least for those with servo-controlled arms.
A Marantz SL-10 or the family of Rabco arms might have some tendency towards this, especially if in poor working order.

The biggest (potential) issue with linears (or swinging "active" arms, like the Sony BioTracer series) is -- there's a lot to go wrong. I used a b&o TX-2 for a few years. I liked it (still do), and the aforementioned Yamaha linear (and, e.g., the Pioneer PL-1000) are very fine record playing platforms. But -- there's a lot to go wrong.

Conversely, there's a lot to be said for simplicity and good basic engineering (e.g., the venerable SME 3009 family of arms that spawned hundreds of mostly Asian imitators).

dromunds

^^^ Good advice above. Lots of good advice here actually if you look back from the start of this thread. If you're heading up to Chicago-land anytime soon, try to give halo a shout and see if you can listen to his Technics SL-Q2. If you can find a really nice used Technic like those mentioned in this thread that would be a good way to get your feet wet on vinyl for under two hunny and WAY less in some cases. Try to get your ears on some other TT's in person if you can. I really like the Denon tables, always have, since I had a DP-75 platter back in the day with a SME arm, but the Denon tables have really gone up in price, they're like double what they should be now IMHO, not that they are not worth that. If a really nice one came up, I would try to pick up a DP59, DP60, DP72 with an eye to removing the arm in the future and upgrading to a Jelco 750 or something like that. I also really like the Denon High Output Moving Coil (HOMC) carts, DL110 or DL160, fantastic bang for the buck on the used market but make sure it has low hours, like buy one from a Polkie you can trust. Watch for one. The Shure M97XE is really affordable as well, depends on your tastes, I think the Denon DL110 smokes it personally, of course you'd be getting a used Denon for the price of a new M97XE basically, but if you get a used Denon DL110 at a good price from a trusted buyer so what if its used? The problem with buying a used TT is sometimes you have to take it with a cart you don't particularly want and then you have to shell out more for a cart. Sometimes you get a really good cart basically as a throw-in bonus, that's what you want to look for if possible. There used to be a saying that your cartridge was 90% of your sound quality. Don't know for sure how true that is, but carts are very important part of the equation no doubt about it. If you can find a refurbed Dual 1229 for $300-$400 that might be a good avenue to go down as well. Lots of guys have had their Duals refurbed by FixMyDual or whatever and if you can find someone who's selling one of those it should be good to go for a long time. There's a stereo salon near me that refurbs vintage turntables and they told me they sell about 3-5 per week. They recently had a Kenwood KD500 mentioned above by Mhardy ("concrete" base) and that's a good TT also. The shop wanted $500 - so private sale would presumably be less. There's lots of good vintage tables out there, you just want to make sure they have been gone over by a professional or you purchase from a trusted source so you don't have to have expensive repairs done right away or have the unfortunate situation where parts are hard to acquire. I have a Thorens TD-160, its super sensitive to vibrations and will skip if people walk by, I don't even use it anymore, but my friend has a Thorens TD-150 and he absolutely loves it. Again, I'd put a different arm on it. I would try to avoid shipping turntables, too many shippers don't know what they're doing, but some do. I've had a few shipped to me by Polkies and they were very well packed, but I've had some shipped from flea bayers who said they were experienced that were just thrown in a box with foam peanuts, platter not even removed or tonearm locked down. Take your time, be patient and get your learn on is the best advice you can get.

FestYboy

@mhardy6647 as much as I'd love a more vintage table, CL just isn't very forthcoming with appropriate examples

Ok so let's say I have a table, and the stylus is shot due to age/abuse. I've read that there is an interaction between the head and arm, how would one go about matching a new head to the arm? What do you look for? And what swings your vote between a MC and MM?

I know, that's a butt load of questions... I've just gotten to the point of having a couple hundred albums and no way to play them for so long, I've got the itch!!

machone

I decided on a new Pioneer PLX-1000 for $700. Not complicated, easy to setup, looks great and sounds fine to me. I have no complaints. It is an Technics clone and a lot of aftermarket parts (kabusa.com) will fit it.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4

mhardy6647

The arm mass and the compliance of the cartridge/suspension/stylus should "match", in the sense that an appropriate combination yields a "system" resonant frequency that's (Goldilocks-wise) just right: not too high, not too low.
Too high, and rumble (or other LF signal or noise on a record) can excite resonances; too low, and the system can be over-sensitive to footfalls. The ideal range for the arm/cartridge system resonance is traditionally considered to be 8 to 12 Hz.

As an aside: The Thorens issue mentioned above could be arm/cartridge mismatch, but more likely reflects imprecise suspension tuning or some issues with the Thorens' suspension itself. As I said, they're finicky-ier than the basic Asian DDs of old

Most arms today are medium mass and like medium compliance cartridges. Most modern cartridges will be happy enough with most modern arms. The extremes are mostly vintage (or, if you will atavisms) -- e.g., the aforementioned DL-103 (introduced in 1962 and in production ever since) and the ultra-high-compliance cartridges of the 1970s (e.g., some of the AKG models, the Sonus cartridges and their ADC progenitors, some of the fine cartridges from Grace, the Shure V15 family, etc.).

There's a database of most of the relevant information at www.vinylengine.com (although calculating the theoretical resonance for any given arm and cartridge isn't always straightforward).

This is a pretty good, simple synopsis (at a quick glance):
https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency

Ortofon, interestingly, makes some really fine (really fine) cartridges, and others not worthy (IMO) of a second glance. Their (LOW-compliance) SPU cartridge family members are superb -- but demanding & pricey.

mhardy6647

MC vs MM (or MI)? Let your ears be the judge.
Bear in mind that, compared to an MM/MI or high output MC cartridge, a low output MC (LOMC) will need either a high gain phono preamp (ideally, also, one with adjustable loading parameters) or a "head amp" (pre-preamp) or a step-up transformer (SUT) to provide sufficient drive for a preamp, integrated, or receiver input.*

___________
* I kinda "finessed" that comment! Obviously (I hope!) an MM, MI or HOMC cartridge needs a high gain preamp/EQ (as well as loading resistance and capacitance appropriate any given cartridge) to produce a normal line-level signal. The "mag phono" inputs found traditionally on preamps, receivers and integrated amps is usually (more or less) appropriate for MM, MI, HOMC sources. Additional gain is needed for an LOMC. Most LOMCs have an order of magnitude (10 dB) or less output than "normal magnetic" cartridges. That's where a higher-gain preamp, head amp, or SUT comes in. Also, the ideal load for most LOMCs is somewhat different than normal magnetic cartridges.

HOMC's I have much less experience with. In theory, they're meant to be "plug and play" with a normal mag phono input -- but the devil's in the details

mikeyb128

https://player.vimeo.com/video/62377436
Here's a great video by peter ledermann from soundsmith, it's a lengthy video but has a lot of great info in it for newbies.

dromunds

High Output Moving Coil (HOMC) carts can be used with your normal MM setting on your preamp/receiver or external phono stage. Low output moving coil (LOMC) cartridges will require a step up to boost their low output. Some internal/external phono stages can be adjusted (or switched) to MC type settings to accommodate LOMC's - but some phono stages can only utilize MM-type carts (which include HOMC) so if you are going to use a LOMC cart it may require a separate device (SUT) to step up the signal (SUT).

Regarding the Thorens mentioned above, both my TD-160 and my buddy's TD-150 had the same suspension-type issues. It wasn't an arm/cart compliance issue. Maybe a suspension tuning issue in both cases but I know some guys who mount a turntable base on the wall so as to avoid floor-based vibrations with their Thorens. Good tables but just a hassle I didn't want to deal with anymore so it hit the closet, plus my Denon DP72L was a superior table IMO anyway.

nooshinjohn

I would jump on this one if I was in the market. There are a few o. EBay right now. Looks like it could be related to the Revox tables in some manner.

Technics SL-M3 Very Rare Direct Drive Linear Tracking Turntable

mhardy6647

dromunds wrote: »

High Output Moving Coil (HOMC) carts can be used with your normal MM setting on your preamp/receiver or external phono stage. Low output moving coil (LOMC) cartridges will require a step up to boost their low output. Some internal/external phono stages can be adjusted (or switched) to MC type settings to accommodate LOMC's - but some phono stages can only utilize MM-type carts (which include HOMC) so if you are going to use a LOMC cart it may require a separate device (SUT) to step up the signal (SUT).

So, the HOMCs are set up for 47k ohm/220 pF loading like a generic MM cart?
I mean, it wouldn't be hard to do -- I just didn't know.

Regarding the Thorens mentioned above, both my TD-160 and my buddy's TD-150 had the same suspension-type issues. It wasn't an arm/cart compliance issue. Maybe a suspension tuning issue in both cases but I know some guys who mount a turntable base on the wall so as to avoid floor-based vibrations with their Thorens. Good tables but just a hassle I didn't want to deal with anymore so it hit the closet, plus my Denon DP72L was a superior table IMO anyway.

The good Denons are fine tables (pricey, though, as you said). The sensitivity of the Thorens (and the Philips tts with similar suspension designs) is certainly exacerbated in buildings of certain kinds of construction. I (FWIW) never had trouble with a Philips AF877, but it was mostly ensconced in a basement (on a slab). Many folks went to wall mounting (or suspended shelves, e.g., from the ceiling) -- so, again, no debate that the Thorens are finicky. Note that, at this late date, I really wouldn't recommend the Philips tts. In their time, they were the "poor person's Thorens" (light, straight arms, belt drive, suspended drivetrains & platters, and Euro-design) -- but today, on the used market, might as well go straight to a Thorens if that's the kind of tt that one wants. Truth be told, with most modern cartridges, the belt-drive Thorens of the 1970s and into the '80s aren't going to be great matches for the low-mass arms, any way.

... and, at the other end of the spectrum entirely, there was/is the TD-124 family
Superb turntables of the "high-maintenance, trophy wife" kind.

Thorens TD-124 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

(my photo, but not my tt, unfortunately)

mhardy6647

thorensisotrackbrochurefragment by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

kharp1

I almost grabbed a Denon DP-60 but backed off. I've seen it mentioned a couple of places that they're great tables but parts are scarce. I don't want to buy something 30 years old and have to pay huge money for parts, or worse, end up with an expensive paper weight.

Was a beautiful table with both arms and a cart, though not a Denon cart. Priced fairly I thought. Seen them go for quite a bit more. Idk.

SCompRacer

msg wrote: »

Only you, Rich, only you

Well, thanks!

The Linn stand parts were made of re-purposed components. A broken table lent 4 legs and some leftover conveyor parts were used for framework. Some measuring, cutting, a little MIG action and some yellow paint. At the time I didn’t know where to buy black paint….…lol

SCompRacer

Thanks for the kind words on the Lenco. Done properly, you can achieve results comparable with turntables you can't afford. IIRC it's around 60 pounds.

From 6 moons..."The L75 differed from its competitors though because the idler wheel didn't drive the outer rim of the platter like other turntables. It drove the underside of the platter - and a very heavy platter at that (8lb).In addition to the benefits of this unique drive method and the heavy, speed-stabilising platter, the unit was fitted with a very high-quality, high-speed, cogless motor."

Stick it in a thin plinth like what happened with many idler drives and you got bad results. A heavy plinth is needed to absorb vibes. Adjusting the motor end play is critical as too tight or too loose will cause vibration.

Jean Nantais from Canada is credited with making the Lenco idler drive into a contender with the high dollar idler drives folks couldn't afford. He shared his work in a long thread at Audiogon, building high quality turntables at the home despot...lol.

Then you have the Lenco forum. Lots of folks from around the world there sharing their builds. Some in their garage, some in the back yard or house/apartment with not many tools available. A fellow in Hong Kong lived in a high rise building. He bought saws and Baltic Birch and cut/assembled it in a stairwell. If you need DIY inspiration, start there.

kharp1

Reading these posts I realize I have sooo much to learn about tables. I want to jump in and start enjoying vinyl, but, I don't want to damage albums while I'm learning, especially at the price of new vinyl. Way more about tables than I could have ever imagined. Good info here.

mhardy6647

Decent arm (good bearings), good stylus, correct VTF (which is almost always not the "lowest VTF of the recommended range"! high end of the recommended range is almost always better!), reasonably close alignment and VTA -- and the rekkids will be fine.

Take good care of the rekkids themselves, too.

Heck, many my purchased-new in the 70s rekkids have been played hunreds (if not thousands!) of times and most are pristine.

Now, getting the most information out of the grooves to your ears whilst minimizing the noise -- that can take some investment, and some finesse...

codycatalist

I have a Pioneer PL510 (not 510A) but I never learned enough to maximize it's performance. Still got the sucker but it never gets used anymore unless to amaze my 6 year old with "ancient" technology ha!

Funny enough I did find a PL510A when they were cleaning out my Great grandmother's house after she passed, what's the chances.

dromunds

Mhardy: I found the instruction manual for my Denon DL-160 cart. Under features it indicates output voltage comparable to MM carts, which can be connected directly to the MM position of the pre w/o SUT. I've always used the 47kohms setting with the DL110 and DL160 with good results. Real bang for buck carts.

SCompRacer

SCompRacer

Just curious, have you thought about vertical vinyl?

https://youtu.be/T8OjlcJjSEE

dromunds

dromunds

Mhardy: Not sure why that portion of the DL160 manual didn't come through with my post up above.

SCompRacer

My Lenco with linear air bearing arm at warp speed...

https://youtu.be/YYD9CIWJELc