Dac/pre

jayman_1975

Is anyone using a DAC that also acts as a preamp? I have seen a few different ones and was wondering if it's worth going that route or is a stand alone pre still the best?

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tonyb

jayman_1975 wrote: »

Is anyone using a DAC that also acts as a preamp? I have seen a few different ones and was wondering if it's worth going that route or is a stand alone pre still the best?

I'm not personally, but most people I know who tried it, went back to a dedicated pre. While functionally, a dac as a pre can do the basic same things, just doesn't sound as good. Unless all your going to do is casual background music, that's the only scenario worth considering in my book.

BlueBirdMusic

Here is a new model to add to the list. Its from PS Audio for $1699.


http://www.psaudio.com/stellar-gain-cell-dac/

I have the standalone PS Audio Nuwave DSD DAC which I use with JRiver. It says an improved version of the DAC is in this unit.

Joey_V

I have not compared and I do not have extensive experience with not using a preamp, but there are reasons that I would rather go with a dedicated pre.

One of the pluses to having a dedicated preamp is:

1. Having a unit be a central hub of the system, you can have other sources attached to it.
2. You may be able to tailor the sound moreso to your liking.
3. Potentially, you might have better sound from a dedicated pre because of better power supplies, dedicated units do not share power supplies with the digital/analog sections.

Just my 2 cents.

jayman_1975

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Is this for a 2.1 or surround system? What are you using the DAC for? What type of files? Emotiva makes a BasX PT-100 (pre amp, dac, tuner) for 2.1 channel stereo and it costs $299. Is something like that in your price range? Or, there is the Parasound Halo P5 pre-amp dac and costs $1,095 at Audio Advisor.

It would be as a 2.1 system slightly integrated into my H/T. I was planning to have my Oppo 93 as a source and let the DAC do the converting and send the signal straight to my 2 channel amp (using the DAC as a pre). If I bought one of the DACs that act as a pre as well this should work. All my other sources included the Oppo via HDMI would remain plugged into my Onkyo TXNR 5008 and when I'm watching movies I would just have the DAC shut off and run pre outs for the front two channels to my two channel amp. My PS Audio 200c has DCinputs as well as AC inputs so I figured I could run ICs from the DAC into the DC input on the amp and the ICs from the Onkyo to the AC input on the amp. Not sure if this would work but if it did I would have to be very careful to not have a signal coming into the amp on both inputs at the same time!

One other thing I guess might be a deal breaker, currently I play all my files stored on a USB hard drive that's connected to my Oppo. These files are FLAC files. Would this work to use the Oppo for the source and have it send the signal to the DAC via toslink? I suppose the DAC wouldn't recognize FLAC files. I suppose I could re-rip my entire library to .wav if I had to.

mantis

You can absolutely go that route if all your doing is what the DAC can do meaning the ability to switch sources in Digital.
This also cuts out another signal in your chain so it will actually sound more natural from one point of view.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

You can absolutely go that route if all your doing is what the DAC can do meaning the ability to switch sources in Digital.
This also cuts out another signal in your chain so it will actually sound more natural from one point of view.

In theory.....but it never seems to work out that way. Like it or not, we all color the sound to our preferences, be it with certain gear, speakers, cables, sources.

Jayman,

Any dac will play flac files, so don't worry too much about compatibility. From what I'm reading, it seems like your trying to separate the music part from the HT part within the same system. A journey I'm well acclimated with myself.

Personally, I don't think using a dac as a pre is going to get you where you want to be. It will work for simplicity sake, but will fall short sound wise imho. Add a tubed pre and your listening pleasure will expand.

I simply run the front pre outs from the receiver to my tubed pre, which passes the signal in standby mode to the amp. Music....goes to the dac from whatever source you want to use to the tubed pre taking the receiver out of the equation.

Yes that's more things in the signal path, more cables to buy, but it will be worth it. The old theory that less is more works sometimes, but a lot of times it doesn't too. When dealing with one system for both HT and music, the less is more theory is thrown out the window.

miner

I use a McIntosh D150 for my digital front end hub (MT450 SACD transport & iTouch via UAS A/USB B connection). The is then sent to my MAC6700.

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steveinaz

Tony, Tony, Tony...."Unless all your going to do is casual background music"..did you just really say that? I'm a Benchmark DAC2 Pre user and wouldn't have it any other way. I've been thru alot of nice preamps, I have no desire to go back.

Stereophile, who BTW doesn't exactly review affordable equipment, said of the Benchmark DAC1 performance used as a pre "it doesn't get any better than this." That seems a far cry from "it's OK for background music."

Come on now. I'm not defending my ugly baby, I just think your observations are waaaaayyyyy off on this one.

tonyb

miner wrote: »

I use a McIntosh D150 for my digital front end hub (MT450 SACD transport & iTouch via UAS A/USB B connection). The is then sent to my MAC6700.

The 6700 has a pre amp section, so your not really using the dac for that function. Some pre amps too you don't need a dedicated HT bypass function to use them in a HT system. Most tubed pre's with a standby feature will do the same thing.

If I was to just use a dac as a pre though, I'd make sure it was a very good dac and probably one that was tubed.

tonyb

Steve,
LOL....allow me to rephrase that. Unless your going to use a "very good" dac....Your Benchmark 2 is a tad above the run of 500 buck dacs out there. Still, I wouldn't go that route and don't know many who would. You can however, to see if it's your cup of tea....but for me, naah....I'll stick with pre amps.

After all, if all dacs that had that pre amp function sounded as good as dedicated pre amps.....we'd see a lot less pre amps being sold wouldn't we ?

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mikeyb128

I used a benchmark DAC2 as a pre, and isn't even in the same stratosphere as my Cary SLP 03. I have A/B'd them several times.

But I have to defend the DAC2 as doing a very admirable job as a preamp. The DAC section is outstanding for the money.

A dedicated tube pre though.... they are super sweet! I Will take a tube pre any day of the week over solid state, I believe you have to spend a lot of money on solid state to equal a tube pre for lesser money.

I know the concept is to reduce items in the signal chain.. blah, blah, blah... get some nice cables in the mix and call it a day.

steveinaz

I'll defer to the "Disappointed in 24k speaker" thread....sometimes stuff is just more expensive, well, because.

Joey_V

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I used a benchmark DAC2 as a pre, and isn't even in the same stratosphere as my Cary SLP 03. I have A/B'd them several times.

But I have to defend the DAC2 as doing a very admirable job as a preamp. The DAC section is outstanding for the money.

A dedicated tube pre though.... they are super sweet! I Will take a tube pre any day of the week over solid state, I believe you have to spend a lot of money on solid state to equal a tube pre for lesser money.

I know the concept is to reduce items in the signal chain.. blah, blah, blah... get some nice cables in the mix and call it a day.

I agree with this. You have to spend more on a SS pre to equal a cheaper tube pre. It's like a cheat code.

Up up down down left right left right....

jayman_1975

Ok so what I'm getting from all of this is a pre is mostly the best. So I need to buy a pre and a dac. Ok. I would like to be able to play the odd sacd that I own as well so if I'm correct then I need a dac that can handle dsd? Let's say $1500 total for a pre and dac. What are your suggestions? First off, my speakers lean a tad to the bright side but my amp is nice and smooth (PS Audio 200c) so it's a pretty good match there. Also, if a tubed pre is the best option then please suggest some that will allow to be used in the configuration I'm looking for.....ht bypass or the standby mode equivalent please.

jayman_1975

Oh and it would be sweet to have subwoofer out on the pre too.

tonyb

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your wanting to spin SACD, the OPPO can do that. Also, are you looking for 5.1 music or 2 channel ? Most separate dacs are for 2 channel with the exception of a few.

Also, I was under the impression the OPPO can do DSD by it's digital inputs, so you want to continue using the OPPO as the source correct ? If so, why do you need a separate dac then ? Is there something in the sound of the Oppo your not liking ? If so, I'm guessing it's more the receiver than the Oppo.

I'm not aware of any tubed pre's in that price range with sub outs, or any price range. A tube integrated would, but not a stand alone 2 channel tubed pre. Might be hard in that price range for a tube integrated, 1500 would buy a decent 2 channel pre with no money left for a good dac.

Maybe a different approach to all this is swapping out the receiver for a dedicated HT processor of higher caliber and sound. Anthem....Cary cinema 12 come to mind but then you'd need to add more amps for those other channels. More costly for sure. Just a thought....

The problem here is going to be your subwoofers. Using them for both HT and music from 2 separate sources is going to be tricky.

tonyb

I'm thinking you might need a Y splitter for the subs. You connect the Oppo by analog outs to a tubed pre, the sub out on the Oppo to your sub Y splitter. The HDMI out on the Oppo goes to the receiver for movies. Sub out on the receiver goes to the Y spitter for the subs. Listening to music just requires you switch audio outputs on the Oppo.

That removes the receiver from the equation with music, lets the Oppo act as the dac, and a tubed 2 channel pre. The front left and right from the receiver goes to one of the inputs on the pre so when listening to movies it passes along to the amp.

That's my take on it, but this does not include 5.1 music unless you still want to use the receiver for that.

jayman_1975

I'm not really interested in 5.1 music. But I do like to listen SACD in 2.0. My speaks do a fine enough job on their own now that I have my amp. The Onk isn't great at bass management for 2.1 which is why I wanted to add a good 2.1 pre. My Onkyo is awesome at h/t and pretty darn good at 2.0 Music. I run it in 2 channel from the Oppo right now via hdmi. I have tried going the analog route and everything falls apart, stereo imaging is horrible when the Oppo is doing the decoding. This being said I have just realized that it could also be the Onk that is a terrible pre.....hard to tell for sure. unless I had a different analog source to try, which I don't.

Maybe I'm not understanding the whole dsd thing. If I have a dac and feed it 2 channel sacd via toslink from the Oppo, does the dac not have to be dsd capable? Sorry for the ignorance I'm really new at the 2 channel game.

And for the record I just have the one sub

jayman_1975

Ok I hooked the Oppo up straight to the amp via analogue interconnects. Same horrible stereo imaging. HDMI to the Onkyo is WAY better. So using the Oppo as an analogue source is not an option.

tonyb

LOL....having a pre in the mix is always a better option to my ears anyway. Your results though, hard to tell. One way you had the Oppo doing the conversion, the other way the receiver was using it's conversion and dac.

Did you try the analog outs of the Oppo into the receiver ? That way your using the Oppo's dac and the receivers pre amp section.

The whole DSD thing, I could be wrong but it's my understanding that any dac can't do DSD over toslink or digital coax, it needs to be USB or HDMI. If your using a separate Higher rez storage device, or a USB stick for your files, you can bypass the Oppo altogether and just use a stand alone dac into a pre......as long as that dac is DSD capable.

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jayman_1975

tonyb wrote: »

Did you try the analog outs of the Oppo into the receiver ? That way your using the Oppo's dac and the receivers pre amp section.

Yes I tried that initially and got the same results.....stereo imagining totally fell apart. Like the lead vocalist's voice that should be centred between the speakers ends up soinding like there's a vocalist coming from each speaker. When the Onkyo is doing the converting there is pin point accuracy and soundstage is huge and deep.

My Oppo 93 is great at video but never really was meant to be much of an analogue player.

Joey_V

Trust your ears. Sometimes a cheap pre is no better than just having everything integrate and work with each other.

mikeyb128

For his budget I would grab a parasound P5 and pick up a Auralic Aries mini. Would sound pretty good for the money in my opinion.

jayman_1975

Well I went back and looked at the settings on my Oppo for analogue audio processing. Turns out I had the front left speaker set to 15ft away and the right to 11ft. Geez I can't believe I missed that. I haven't made any changes to those settings cause I really haven't used the analogue outputs at all. Now that that error is adjusted the analogue playback is very good. I'll have to do some tests now to see if it's improved vs the hdmi to receiver option. At the moment I have the Oppo analogue out directly to my Ps Audio 200c and am using the Oppo as a pre as well.

steveinaz

Sounds like you need a swiss army knife of a pre......hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I know a pre/dac that has sub-outs, HT bypass, accepts analog inputs, does DSD, blah...blah...blah; of course, it's only listenable at background music levels and It's measured performance was... (only) "simply superb" per John Atkinson.

jdjohn

You might consider a Peachtree Audio novaPre hybrid. It has a built-in DAC with two digital coax inputs, optical toslink, a USB input...and an analogue input. It has a single tube inside that can be toggled on/off. It has two pair of pre-outs on the back, so one for a power amp, and the other could be used for a powered sub or another amp for the sub.

I have one of these, and as my digital source, I use a Logitech SqueezeBox Touch as really just a transport, if you will. Using the digital coax connection, the D/A conversion is done within the novaPre, not in the SBT.