My personal experience: Acoustic Zen Sartori speaker wires

13

Comments

  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    edited December 2016
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    @K_M

    Last I recall is that you were fed up with this forum and had decided to leave. What changed your mind?

    I assume you must have found some redeeming value to this forum and I am curious what that is.

    I find that there is still a lot of good information overall.

    Me, saying I see mistakes and wrong info alone is not a reason to hate a forum or a person posting in it.
    I pick and choose, what I enjoy, what I agree with or disagree with.
    No reason to call people trolls or get all worked up over disagreements with a person on an audio forum.

    FYI, never said there was no redeeming qualities. I realized something. No one ever wants to be wrong, and usually do not like being told they are wrong.

    I have enjoyed many of your posts, including those I do not always think are correct or agree with. The thing is to try to not get all mired in being right all the time.

    Happy Holidays!!

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  • Paradoxex
    Paradoxex Posts: 189
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    @K_M

    Last I recall is that you were fed up with this forum and had decided to leave. What changed your mind?

    I assume you must have found some redeeming value to this forum and I am curious what that is.

    By the way, I think most people here understand that disagreement does not equate to trolling, just as being hungry does not equate to gluttony.

    Not sure who this is to, but in my post I was denoting xcapri as the troll. You were just feeding him in a thread that has little to do with you and his personal relations.

    F1, thanks for your contribution. You don't know me, but don't let that stop you.

    I was trying to keep us on topic. I did not realize that was considered hostile around here.
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  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,830
    edited December 2016
    *deleted*
    probably going to disappear sooner or later anyway

    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,962
    Have to admit, I'm a bit curious on this wrong information posted. I'd like some specific examples.

    Audio isn't about who's right or wrong, it's a personal journey that each decides where it stops. Not everyone on that journey is familiar with the tools and gear available to them and what synergizes with what better than others....how to take that next step upward on that journey.

    Many of us who have been on the forum for awhile can see the negativity when it comes to higher end audio. Most opinions only rests with what one is accustomed to, or wallet size. Anything above where their own journey stopped, is snake oil, hogwash, disinformation.

    What we do around here is share experiences, offer advice based on those experiences. You decide your own journey and where or when it should stop or grow. However continuously bashing cable threads does not work into what audio is all about, nor this forum. Just my opinion obviously, and we all may not agree on things, but some need to find a better way of approaching those discussions without the bashing, name calling and innuendos.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    lightman1 wrote: »
    0rpa2xuzhqia.jpg

    I like that we can count on @lightman1 to bring the comedic relief. We'll done, again, sir.

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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    I'm not one to post much, or, get involved in others spats, but, the thing that concerns me is often times in matters of opinion or personal taste, such as this, the flaming starts and the thread gets hijacked in to a circle of hell previously unfounded.
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  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    edited December 2016
    tonyb wrote: »
    Many of us who have been on the forum for awhile can see the negativity when it comes to higher end audio. Most opinions only rests with what one is accustomed to, or wallet size. Anything above where their own journey stopped, is snake oil, hogwash, disinformation.

    This happens on all audio forums. Nothing new.
    No one is biased or wrong or does Blind testing, so it is all anecdotal experiences.
    Take them with a grain of salt!

    I do notice, when someone has praise for high priced cables, they are applauded for their view.
    When someone disagrees or feels they make no difference, they are attacked and called out as a troll.

    A different set of standards are applied, to 2 people coming to opposite conclusions and with the same exact amount of proof, which is zero.
    Post edited by K_M on
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited December 2016
    K_M wrote: »
    No one is biased or wrong or does Blind testing, so it is all anecdotal experiences.
    Take them with a grain of salt!

    If they are all just anecdotal experience, why do naysayers go to extreme lengths to refute them?
    K_M wrote: »
    I do notice, when someone has praise for high priced cables, they are applauded for their view.
    When someone disagrees or feels they make no difference, they are attacked and called out as a troll.

    I have posted lots of reviews where a high priced cable or piece of electronics underperformed or didn't make a difference, or made a negative difference, and no one has ever accused me of being troll.

    A couple of examples:

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/153769/shunyata-anaconda-zitron-power-cable-first-impressions

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/74472/the-ai-1-dreadnought-project-pt-1

    However, I fully understand you only seeing what fits your anti-audiophile agenda. Carry on.

    As others have stated, the delivery makes a difference. A cashier can plop your change and receipt down on the counter and yell "Next!", or they can smile, place your change and receipt in your hand while making eye contact and saying "thank you for shopping with us". In either case, you get your merchandise, change, and receipt, but the former experience is going to make you question whether you want to shop there again.
    K_M wrote: »
    A different set of standards are applied, to 2 people coming to opposite conclusions and with the same exact amount of proof, which is zero.

    I have bench tested lots of cables where there were clearly measurable differences in the cables that were well within the range of audibility. Sometimes I heard a difference and sometimes I did not. Sometimes I didn't hear a difference in one system or application and heard a difference in another. Sometimes the differences only became apparent when a different type of music was played (eg. vocal vs. instrumental, etc.).
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,830
    K_M wrote: »
    This happens on all audio forums. Nothing new.
    No one is biased or wrong or does Blind testing, so it is all anecdotal experiences.
    Take them with a grain of salt!

    I do notice, when someone has praise for high priced cables, they are applauded for their view.
    When someone disagrees or feels they make no difference, they are attacked and called out as a troll.

    A different set of standards are applied, to 2 people coming to opposite conclusions and with the same exact amount of proof, which is zero.
    If I were a mod on this forum, I think I would have the words "blind testing" and "proof" censored. Like many of the other words you can't use here, these two
    are also useless and irrelevant.

    And 99/100 times, the ones who disagree or feel that they make no difference are
    going by their own expectation bias, not actual testing or experience.

    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    polrbehr wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    This happens on all audio forums. Nothing new.
    No one is biased or wrong or does Blind testing, so it is all anecdotal experiences.
    Take them with a grain of salt!

    I do notice, when someone has praise for high priced cables, they are applauded for their view.
    When someone disagrees or feels they make no difference, they are attacked and called out as a troll.

    A different set of standards are applied, to 2 people coming to opposite conclusions and with the same exact amount of proof, which is zero.
    And 99/100 times, the ones who disagree or feel that they make no difference are
    going by their own expectation bias, not actual testing or experience.

    Exactly. They do not say cables don't make a difference because they tried the TOTL MIT, Shunyata, Chrystal Cable, etc in their system with no improvement. No, it is always cables make no difference because they expect it to not make any difference.

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    Boy this thread blew up....
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,010
    edited December 2016
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Boy this thread blew up....

    Are you surprised? Talking cables should be banned like religion talk. I'm kidding but it always leads to this.
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  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    edited December 2016
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Exactly. They do not say cables don't make a difference because they tried the TOTL MIT, Shunyata, Chrystal Cable, etc in their system with no improvement. No, it is always cables make no difference because they expect it to not make any difference.

    "Very little difference and are not worth it"

    Thats the real argument....
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Boy this thread blew up....

    Are you surprised? Talking cables should be banned like religion talk. I'm kidding but it always leads to this.

    Yeah man... didn't know it was this polarizing.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,283
    So I guess when we start a cable thread we need to disclose a list of names that an OP does not want responses from or any inclusion in the thread????
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    K_M wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Exactly. They do not say cables don't make a difference because they tried the TOTL MIT, Shunyata, Chrystal Cable, etc in their system with no improvement. No, it is always cables make no difference because they expect it to not make any difference.

    "Very little difference and are not worth it"

    Thats the real argument....

    While subjective, that is a valid opinion, and in that case one does not need blind testing, or whatever. However, that rarely, if ever, is what is presented. Rather it is an ultimatum that cables make no difference. As has been mentioned, how someone spends their money is their own business. Personally, I would never spend 5 figures on a single cable, and think those that do are foolish, but have no problem accepting that it most likely will make an audible difference.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    BlueFox wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Exactly. They do not say cables don't make a difference because they tried the TOTL MIT, Shunyata, Chrystal Cable, etc in their system with no improvement. No, it is always cables make no difference because they expect it to not make any difference.

    "Very little difference and are not worth it"

    Thats the real argument....

    While subjective, that is a valid opinion, and in that case one does not need blind testing, or whatever. However, that rarely, if ever, is what is presented. Rather it is an ultimatum that cables make no difference. As has been mentioned, how someone spends their money is their own business. Personally, I would never spend 5 figures on a single cable, and think those that do are foolish, but have no problem accepting that it most likely will make an audible difference.

    I used to think anyone spending more than $100 on cables was a moron.

    Then... well you know what happened.

    I probably would not spend 5 figs on a pair of wire... but boy am I glad I landed that deal. No regerts.... I mean regrets.

    I am still trying to wrap my head around the 50K+ Odin2 or Magnum Opus.... must have a pretty resolving system for those but I'm sure they're out there.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited December 2016
    Everything is proportional. If my take home pay was around $300K a year then I might try $50K cables. My $4K Shunyata Zitron Anaconda speaker cables are my most expensive. However, I have at least $30K in the two channel system covering power and cables. And that doesn't cover the two channel hand me downs that are now in the HT, or garage. LOL
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Everything is proportional. If my take home pay was around $300K a year then I might try $50K cables. My $4K Shunyata Zitron Anaconda speaker cables are my most expensive. However, I have around at least $30K total in the two channel system covering power and cables. And that doesn't cover the two channel hand me downs that are now in the HT, or garage. LOL

    LOL....

    dang bro... I'm glad I don't subscribe to your take home pay:cable proportion.. I'm really not stepping up to the plate in that case.

    For me to buy $50K cables.... I'd have to be making $2,000,000/year.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,962
    The naysayers always elude to the higher priced cables. 10K -50k cables most of us can't afford but that doesn't mean they don't have worth to those who can.

    Lots of real estate between 100 bucks and just 1000 bucks, many cables available with varying degrees of sound quality. This thread is proof that opinions usually run along side wallet sizes. Could also be some don't consider cables a part of their system and it's over all sound quality. If you fall into that category, stop posting in threads of others who do consider cables a part of their system. Nobody will benefit from your remarks and you'll just invite a crap storm.

    Every member here has their own audio path, if your fine with where you are on that path rock on and chill out, but stop denying others the opportunity to explore a higher path by craping on cable threads. It's as simple as that gents.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • befuddle
    befuddle Posts: 126
    edited December 2016
    IMO a cable debate based in decorum can prove to be potentially informative!
    While one based on criticisms and insult can prove to be Juvenile, counter productive.interesting and comical!
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  • muncybob
    muncybob Posts: 3,042
    Part of this thread title is "My personal experience"....I'm not a bona fide audiophile but I'm totally lost on how anybody can comment(pro or con) on the OP's experience if they have not personally shared in that experience....and since I think it's fairly well known that different systems can(and often do) sound unlike each other with the same cables I am again lost as to how anybody can make a comment(pro or con) about said cable having never been in their system.

    I doubt I can ever afford any of the higher priced items discussed in this forum but I do enjoy reading about the experiences of the members that go on these various audio adventures. If I read something that interests me maybe I'll try it and maybe I won't, but I certainly will never say a product is junk if I've never tried it. If I took that approach to things that I enjoy in life I would still think all tequilas taste like gasoline...and I'm happy to report that they don't :)
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
    Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 10,716
    edited December 2016
    High fidelity audio is an academic exercise.
    There, I said it.

    Thanks to the OP for posting his experiences. :)
    Here is a chance to end the debate once and for all;
    http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=332
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  • befuddle
    befuddle Posts: 126
    Rednedtugent I clicked your link and am not quite sure what point you were trying to convey other than MIT consistently marks up this particular brand of their cable by more than $18,600 since its safe to assume that they are not selling them at a loss!
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    So I guess when we start a cable thread we need to disclose a list of names that an OP does not want responses from or any inclusion in the thread????

    Nah I'm cool with all the responses.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    rednedtugent wrote: »
    High fidelity audio is an academic exercise.
    There, I said it.

    Thanks to the OP for posting his experiences. :)
    Here is a chance to end the debate once and for all;
    http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=332

    High fidelity is an exercise of how to optimize a system without going broke.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,830
    Well, this thread certainly got sanitized today. B)
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
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  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    muncybob wrote: »
    Part of this thread title is "My personal experience"....I'm not a bona fide audiophile but I'm totally lost on how anybody can comment(pro or con) on the OP's experience if they have not personally shared in that experience....and since I think it's fairly well known that different systems can(and often do) sound unlike each other with the same cables I am again lost as to how anybody can make a comment(pro or con) about said cable having never been in their system.

    I doubt I can ever afford any of the higher priced items discussed in this forum but I do enjoy reading about the experiences of the members that go on these various audio adventures. If I read something that interests me maybe I'll try it and maybe I won't, but I certainly will never say a product is junk if I've never tried it. If I took that approach to things that I enjoy in life I would still think all tequilas taste like gasoline...and I'm happy to report that they don't :)

    None of those things were said in this thread though.......??

    No one told the OP he was wrong, called him names, or hinted he was silly or trashed his review,.
    Nor did anyone say any product was junk, nor even commented directly about the particular cables he mentioned.
    Cable threads seem started to express excitement and elicit agreement.

    The O.P. was quite cordial, and I did really enjoy his ruminations and thoughts!!

    Things tend to derail, as some are unable to hear anything other than agreement.
    If you guys have been on other audio forums, some do not allow cable threads, some laugh at them, some insist on proof or more than an anecdote or thoughts.
    Some allow any claim etc...

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,962
    Totally not true KM, nobody on the positive side of the debate says you MUST believe me. However we do encourage people to try for themselves and judge....like we do with most things audio related.

    Like I keep saying, this forum is about sharing experiences, not everyone has the same ones or same results either.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 10,716
    My point was that instead of two orders of magnitude $ I'm willing to spend on
    speaker cable it is now only one. Surely if the TOTL is bought by cable
    naysayers and "tested," we could put the cable arguments to bed for good.
    Anything other than that is saber rattling on part of (youknowwho) and a bore.
    befuddle wrote: »
    Rednedtugent I clicked your link and am not quite sure what point you were trying to convey other than MIT consistently marks up this particular brand of their cable by more than $18,600 since its safe to assume that they are not selling them at a loss!

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