Before and After with Mr Andrew Jones

halo

As some of you may know, I got in on the preorder for the ELAC UB5 & UC5 pretty early (February IIRC) and I also had the opportunity to hear the UB5 and meet Andrew Jones at AXPONA 2016. At AXPONA, I also got to hear the F6 from the Debut Series and I was very impressed with both sets of the ELAC speakers. Andrew was great to speak with and I'm glad I had the opportunity to meet him and to hear the UB5 before purchasing them. Hearing the F6 was what made up my mind about going with the UF5 > the UB5.

Now, obviously, what I heard at AXPONA is not the same as what I'm hearing at home (different size room, different acoustics, different equipment, etc.).

I've been listening to music since getting everything set up earlier today and I am very impressed by what I'm hearing from the UF5 & the UC5 (I can see someone getting three of them for a seamless front set for HT). I still have some playing around to do with placement to try and get them situated as best I can in my 20' x 15' x 8' living room.

Prior to the ELAC Uni-Fi speakers, I was very happy with the Energy Reference Connoisseur Series RC-70 floorstanding speakers, the RC-LCR center channel, and the RC-10 bookshelf speakers.

Now, the ELAC speakers are taking the place of the Energy speakers and my initial observations are that the Energy speakers weren't bad at all. The ELAC are different, to be sure. The Energy RC-70 floorstanding speakers are much larger than the UF5 floorstanding speakers. It almost doesn't look right; like the UF5 are toy sized in comparison to the RC-70. However, the sound is every bit as full and engaging, if not more so. Energy has a "laid back" presentation that still managed to be detailed. The ELAC presentation is more forward but it isn't harsh or annoying in any way. Surprisingly, the low end response digs just as deep, if not deeper, than the RC-70. How is this possible as, on paper, the RC-70 has the better low end spec (Frequency response: 31 Hz ~ 23 kHz +/- 3 dB Usable Response: -10 dB Anechoic @ 26 Hz) compared to the UF5 (Frequency response: 42 to 25,000 Hz). The RC-70's other specs: Speaker System: Bass Reflex, Rear Vented Recommended. Amplifier Power: up to 250 Watts Impedance: 8 Ohms nominal / 4 Ohms minimum. Anechoic Sensitivity: 92 dB, 2 speakers in a typical room: 95 dB. Components: 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter. 5-1/2" Ribbed Elliptical Surround Midrange. Two 6-1/2" Ribbed Elliptical Surround Woofers. Crossover Points: 600 Hz and 2.4 kHz. By contrast, the UF5 specs are: Tweeter: 1 x 1-inch soft dome, concentrically mounted. Midrange: 1 x 4-inch aluminum cone. Woofer: 3 x 5.25-inch aluminum cone. Crossover frequency: 270 / 2,700 Hz. Frequency response: 42 to 25,000 Hz. Sensitivity: 85 dB at 2.83 v/1m. Recommended amplifier power: 40 to 140 wpc. Peak power handling: 140 wpc. Nominal impedance: 4 Ω; minimum 3.4 Ω

When listening to the tried and true Bass & Drum Intro by Niles Lofgrin the UF5 took everything to a whole new level, a really low level. I was very surprised as the RC-70 never seemed to go that deep with that same level of clarity and detail. I ran through a lot of typical "test tracks" and some seemed to fare better with one as opposed to the other but I believe this has to do with the initial placement of the UF5. The Energy speakers threw out a much wider soundstage but they were also placed farther apart than where I have the UF5 speakers now. I guess it's an adjustment period to get to know the new speakers and my ears and eyes are getting to get wrapped around the sound coming out of these little boxes :cool: I am not disappointed in my decision to go with the UF5 & UC5 > the Energy Reference Connoisseur Series. For an apartment dweller such as myself, these ELAC speakers are the better fit, in more ways than one.

I'm not going to go into further speaker comparisons but I've owned far more expen$ive and highly regarded speakers over the years and the Energy speakers were honestly some of the best speakers that I've owned. The ELACs have the edge on the Energy's in many aspects so that should give you an idea of what Mr. Jones has accomplished with the Uni-Fi series. The Uni-Fi aren't the best speakers that I've ever heard, but they are throwing knock out punches with relative ease.

So, my initial impressions are mostly positive but there are a few things I am not exactly happy about.

The felt on the back of the speaker grills, which is covering the magnets in the grills is coming off and leaving sticky glue residue on the face of the speaker. All of the speakers are doing this, two UF5 and one UC5.

The binding posts on the back will not accommodate my Signal Cable Classic speaker cables terminated with spades. The central "nut" is too wide and the spade doesn't fit. Banana plugs will work fine as I had to resort to some older zip cord with decent banana plugs. I'm sure that bare wire will be fine as well. lol.

There is only one set of binding posts in the back; guess I should have noticed that before as it's plainly visible on the ELAC website. So, if you want to bi-amp or bi-wire these babies, it ain't happening.

I'm glad they were packed well, some of the foam inside the shipping boxes was broken and the speakers had a little "play" in the shipping boxes because they weren't completely secured in there.

So, for those who want to hook up exotic speaker cables to the Uni-Fi, you're going to need banana plugs or some seriously huge spades to hook them up your hi-fi. That said, the zip cord I'm using seems to be working just fine and the sound quality of these speakers is very impressive.

I was using the Energy RC-10 with the RC-LCR for movies and the RC-70 for music. I've consolidated it down to the UF5 w the UC5 for movies and the UF5 for music utilizing the bypass feature on the Jolida and the pre-outs on my Marantz NR1403 AVR.

The meager 50 wpc Marantz is only driving the UC5 and it's doing a fine job of it. The UF5 are being driven by the McCormack DNA-125 @ 200 wpc 4 Ω.

So, here is the before & after...

BEFORE:


AFTER:




Oh, I don't mind the Green Edition Midrange at all.

Thanks to all those at ELAC that made this all possible and to @F1nut for posting about AJ's new concentric speakers. I was perfectly happy with what I had until I read that post Jesse

Thanks to @tonyb for the McCormack amp recommendation, amongst a slew of other recommendations

@heiney9 - thanks for the input on the Jolida Fusion Pre, I'm digging it.

Thanks to you all who had a part in this bout of upgrade-itis. lol!

lightman1

More beer!!! Looking good, Vic!
Never underestimate a well crafted book/monitor speaker.
I've heard some doozies over the years.

halo

lightman1 wrote: »

More beer!!! Looking good, Vic!
Never underestimate a well crafted book/monitor speaker.
I've heard some doozies over the years.

I couldn't agree more Russ! The Dynaudio Confidence C1 Platinum is, to date, the most amazing speaker I've ever heard.

F1nut

Sure Victor, blame it on me......LOL

Thanks for your impressions and the pics, looks good!

EndersShadow

I'm to lazy to look it up but what's the width and depth difference between the two?

halo

EndersShadow wrote: »

I'm to lazy to look it up but what's the width and depth difference between the two?

RC-70: 39 7/8" X 7 3/4" X 15"

UF5: Dimensions (WxHxD) No Feet: 7.87″ x 38″ x 10.75″ - mine have the feet installed. Adds maybe a 1/2"

halo

halo wrote: »

RC-70: 39 7/8" X 7 3/4" X 15"

UF5: 38″ x 7.87″ x 10.75″ - mine have the feet installed. Adds maybe a 1/2"

The only major difference is the depth of the cabinet.

I guess that they look like toys because of the smaller 5.25" bass drivers occupying the space where I was used to seeing the larger 6.5" drivers.

madmax

If they are like the B6 then break-in will make a difference. The B6 got bigger and bolder sounding at around 20 hours, which is about the time I sold them.

madmax

halo wrote: »

Surprisingly, the low end response digs just as deep, if not deeper, than the RC-70. How is this possible as, on paper, the RC-70 has the better low end spec (Frequency response: 31 Hz ~ 23 kHz +/- 3 dB Usable Response: -10 dB Anechoic @ 26 Hz) compared to the UF5 (Frequency response: 42 to 25,000 Hz).

Oh so many times it has been proven that specs cannot tell the whole story.

msg

First, congratulations, good info, and nice review.
Second, re: the green driver - I had to really look for it; hardly noticeable.
Third, has two weeks passed already? Aren't you supposed to be studying?

Glad you're enjoying them.
Looking forward to hearing your impressions as they break in. I imagine they'll just get better and better.

Lastly - re: your note about the spade not fitting - can you get it locked in temporarily by placing one leg of the spade in the wire hole? Pretty sure you can find a quality spade to banana adapter. I just did a quick search and it seems to be a real "thing".

halo

I've been listening a bit more and discovered something in regards to the difference between the two floorstanding speakers (Energy RC-70 & ELAC UF5). The ELAC speakers do not necessarily play deeper, but the bass that they do play is cleaner.

When I am in the area of the apartment where the bass "pools up," the Energy speakers were kind of boomy; not necessarily in a bad way as there was a lot of bass, to be sure, but it wasn't as "clean" as it is from the UF5 (when I'm sitting in the same spot listening to the same music).

I think that acoustic room treatments would balance out any issues with ether set of speakers and bring out their full potential. I'm still experimenting with placement of the UF5 and I hope that resolves some things for me.

So, I don't think that the specs are "off," it's just me getting my head wrapped around what I'm hearing from the two different speakers, analyzing it properly, and processing it appropriately.

After listening to certain pieces of music last night, I thought that I may have sacrificed some bass response in going with the UF5 > RC-70.

I will say that, in regards to speaker efficiency, I don't notice much of a difference in where the volume knob is located on the preamp or the AVR in order for me to drive the UF5 vs the RC-70. I guess that's a good thing. Obviously, I have enough power in the McCormack (200 wpc into 4 ohms) to drive the ELAC speakers and I never had an issue driving the Energy speakers with the AVR or the separates but I wasn't sure what to expect with the ELAC speakers.

halo

Some discussion has taken place about the optimum speaker placement for the UB5 & UF5 speakers over on the AVS forum.

At the AXPONA exposition, the speakers were placed quite a distance from the wall, I would guess it’s at least three feet. However, the general consensus suggests that placing the speakers closer to the wall will increase the level of bass response while, simultaneously, making the bass “boomy” whereas the farther you get from the wall the more the bass response diminishes yet what you do get is more accurate.

So, how is it possible that, at AXPONA, the bass was thumping me in chest if the speakers were so far away from the wall?

What other wizardry is afoot here?

Let’s examine a list of variable and see if we can replicate the results.

The first things we want to replicate are the UB5. Next, the stands – I’m guessing they’re about 24”. Next up are the speaker cables; In looking at the photos, those aren’t your garden-variety lamp cord cables available at best buy. Those cables are connected to the Audio Alchemy DPA-1 amplifier which is connected to the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 which is being fed AC by the Audio Alchemy PS-5. I’m not sure what streaming device was used to supply the music files but Andrew was controlling it with an iPad. Speaking of music files, let’s get a few of the ones Andrew used to demo the UB5: Deadmau5 – ‘See Ya’, Terry Evans & Ry Cooder – ‘Get Your Lies Straight’, Seal – ‘Killer’ (Acoustic Version), Jen Chapin - 'You Haven't Done Nothin'. There was also an orchestral piece for children, something about a monster’s cave?

OK, now let’s look at the room, Westin Hotel, Rosemont, IL., Room 524. I don’t know the dimensions of the room but I’m sure that we can find out this information. There were acoustic room treatments to the left and right of the main listening position placed from the floor, almost to the ceiling, in between the speakers, themselves, and the MLP.

I can’t make out the brand of power cables but I’m pretty sure they aren’t "basic" cables and I believe this applies to the interconnects as well (they look like audioquest to me but i could be wrong).

BTW, I am not for or against cables, I’m just trying to recreate the demo put on by Andrew as much as possible because, if it worked so well for him in a hotel room, maybe it’ll do the same in my home.

Was there power conditioning or AC filtering / conditioning taking place? If so, what components were used? Looks like a big black box on the bottom of the rack is doing something. And what kind of audio rack is it?

Am I leaving anything else out of the equation?

Here are the photos:

lightman1

See the curtains bundled up behind the speakers? They act kinda like a bass trap.
Keeping the corners from loading up and, I'm guessing, second reflections.


This is an anechoic chamber. Dead as a doornail. Room treatment like a mo fo.
Same principle but to a higher level.


Low Hz is a bear's arse to tame. He just did it by folded curtains and a little tap dance with the stand placement. And from what I can gather, presented that "punch" on the low end.
My .02.

lightman1

...Aaaaaand...his concentric drivers aren't green. His speakers won't sound as good as yours.

halo

@DSkip - The wall located behind my speakers is a firewall/fire barrier wall which is made of concrete/concrete blocks. If I am not mistaken, the ceiling is also made of this same material.

The speakers are currently 13" from the wall behind them. The ELAC owner's manual suggests 12" - 24" between the back of the speaker and the wall behind it as a starting point. It also suggests following along with the equilateral triangle that is formed between the speakers and the main listening position (mlp). Toe in is also suggested if the sound isn't focused with a clear / distinct center image.

The soundstage seems to be opening up a bit as I play more music through the speakers. Bass response varies depending on the material (duh) and the location of where I am in the apartment. In the mlp, it's ok. When I'm not in the room, the bass is stronger without a change in clarity. I had the same issue with the Energy RC-70 speakers, even though they produced what seems to be more bass.

The RC-10 bookshelf speakers did not dig as deep as the RC-70 but their sound was more uniform throughout the apartment. Bass response seemed to be very similar whether I was in the mlp or in another room.

I am contemplating GIK and some acoustic panels or bass traps but, because I live in an apartment, I am limited in how much I can do and I don't want to permanently mount anything. Whatever I do should be able to follow me to my next apartment. Since most of the dealers at AXPONA had room treatments that weren't permanently attached to anything, I think this is possible for me in the apartment. Also, the acoustic treatments at AXPONA were minimal but effective which is what I'm looking to replicate.

halo

So, is it possible to have buyers remorse and sellers remorse simultaneously?

I have noticed that a 5 - 10db increase makes for a huge difference in the way the UF5 sound when listening to music. I usually like to have 80 db peaks when I'm listening as I live in an apartment. But if I take it to 85 db or 90 db peaks, it seems like I am listening to a completely different, a better, set of speakers.

I have been playing with placement and, in pulling them away from the wall from 13" to 24", the bottom end disappears. Toe in really helps to focus the image and made the sound stage wider.

The overall bass response on the UF5 is weaker than that of my Energy RC-70 speakers (listening in the same position to the same tracks - the Energy digs deeper). However, I do hear more details in music I thought that I was familiar with on the UF5 > RC-70. I guess it's a series of trade offs - detail or deep bass? Which is more important? Sure, you could add a sub but then you should go with the UB5 > UF5.

The brushed vinyl finish on the UF5 is AWFUL. It is far too delicate and it isn't even remotely durable compared to black ash vinyl wrap. This was a major flub up for ELAC and a huge downside for me.

erniejade

In the pics, it looks like he has the speakers firing into the corners. Even though they are away from the walls a bit, they look to me like they are corner loaded. In your pictures, it looks more like wall and not corner loading. when I actually had 2 real corners of a room ( when I had the basement) I got the most even bass results 3 feet from the side and back... basically corner loading.

In your room I cannot see how far from the side walls the speakers are? Are they equal distance to the side walls?

halo

erniejade wrote: »

In the pics, it looks like he has the speakers firing into the corners. Even though they are away from the walls a bit, they look to me like they are corner loaded. In your pictures, it looks more like wall and not corner loading. when I actually had 2 real corners of a room ( when I had the basement) I got the most even bass results 3 feet from the side and back... basically corner loading.

In your room I cannot see how far from the side walls the speakers are? Are they equal distance to the side walls?

Not equidistant but nowhere near the side walls. Corner loading isn't possible here.

madmax

halo wrote: »

So, is it possible to have buyers remorse and sellers remorse simultaneously?

Someone sounds a little unhappy.

halo

madmax wrote: »

Someone sounds a little unhappy.

Well, Max, based on the way the UB5 were presented at AXPONA, the UF5 are falling short in my room.

It could be due to the fact that we were in a smaller room with better acoustics (thanks to the acoustic treatments) and, as Ern points out, they were corner loaded. However, when I heard the F6 at AXPONA, they were not corner loaded and there was minimal room treatment and the Jolida integrated had less than half the power of my McCormack. That said, both rooms were playing at loud(er) listening levels compared to me in my environment.

A little disappointed, yes. I'm trying to fill a big room with sound. I understand that Andrew is now promoting the UF5 at THE show in California and I'm curious about his demo material, room treatments, position, etc. People have said ELAC needs a bigger room next year due to the popularity of the Uni-Fi line; maybe a bigger room would defeat/diminish the speakers impressive show/exhibition results.

madmax

I see you have them sitting with the entertainment center between them. They may not like having anything sitting between them.

halo

madmax wrote: »

I see you have them sitting with the entertainment center between them. They may not like having anything sitting between them.

That's a possibility but I don't have anywhere else to put them. Andrew had an audio rack between them at AXPONA and they didn't seem to mind.

@DSkip said there may be issues with concrete walls. The wall behind them is concrete but the RC-70 had more bottom end response, in the same location, and they were almost two feet from the wall behind them, whereas the ELAC are 13" from the wall now. At 24" the bass disappeared.

madmax

halo wrote: »

That's a possibility but I don't have anywhere else to put them. Andrew had an audio rack between them at AXPONA and they didn't seem to mind.

Except that they were quite a distance from the rack and also sit out in front of the face of the rack. I noticed you had the Energy speakers sitting much further out than the ELAC. The Energy were also further apart because of the RC10s sitting between the rack and the floor standers.

madmax

It could also be that you need a brittish guy standing out in front of the setup.

halo

madmax wrote: »

halo wrote: »

That's a possibility but I don't have anywhere else to put them. Andrew had an audio rack between them at AXPONA and they didn't seem to mind.

Except that they were quite a distance from the rack and also sit out in front of the face of the rack. I noticed you had the Energy speakers sitting much further out than the ELAC. The Energy were also further apart because of the RC10s sitting between the rack and the floor standers.

It could also be that you need a British guy standing out in front of the setup.

lol. Well, the Energy speakers needed more room to breath. If I put them closer to the wall the bass would be boomy and muddy - even the bookshelf speakers were a good distance from the wall. I know that the speakers are supposed to be in front of the plane set by the AV rack & the TV but if I pull the ELAC speakers forward, the bass disappears completely. Any farther than 13" and it goes to he!! in a hand basket. I tried moving them away from the back wall and it just doesn't work for them. They need to close to wall when they can't be corner loaded and they need a good amount of toe in to achieve a focal point and a wide sound stage. I can try to move them 10" or less from the back wall, I'm just thinking the bass is going to get sloppy.

madmax

It sounds like you have no other choice, you must either move or get a small musical subwoofer.

halo

We will move, eventually. I really don't want to add a sub. If I were to do it, what is a musical sub? What brand(s)? Model(s)?

Perhaps i need to consult GIK and provide them with the dimensions of the room. I'll need portable solutions. I would think corner bass traps can be moved from one location to another without issue.

madmax

Maybe something like this. http://www.musicdirect.com/p-98697-rel-t-zero-subwoofer-black-demo.aspx Demo model for $400

halo

Thanks Max, says it's designed for "small rooms"

I bet I could put that money to good use with GIK. If my room has standing waves or nodes or cancellation, will a sub work? The RC-70 had similar issues but they put out more bass overall compared to the UF5

erniejade

Do you have a few more shots of your room besides that wall ?

erniejade

Also how far away is your listening position? Have you put the speakers in your listening position and basically do a sub crawl walking around the room and see where the bass is more prominent but then stoop down to listening position?

My horrible room no bass but I go in the hallway and I have a ton of bass. I have gone through a lot of equipment trying to get this room figured out. A sub maske a huge difference since you can put the speakers where they project right and the bass where it sounds right.