Diminishing Returns? MIT cables.....

rooftop59

find a good deal on ebay, audiogon, or this forum, and you can recover most if not all of your money. I have never been able to audition anything in a store, just read reviews and buy (and sell) lots of used gear. And its fun to boot...

F1nut

notified wrote: »

Thanks Tony I was perplexed when F1 suggested that it only pertains to zip cord Perhaps he too meant to imply the performance benefits in the equation instead of replying to the basic question asked

When I first got into audio many centuries ago there was only basic zip cord and wire gauge was really the only guideline. As time passed some smart folks started addressing cables realizing there was more to it than gauge alone, that the factors I mentioned previously had a huge impact on the end results. Therefore, judging wire today by gauge alone is pointless. In fact, most of the better cables today don't even mention the wire gauge.

marvda1

tonyb

notified wrote: »

Tony-You make some [obvious] good points to follow! However in many instances the listen before buying scenario cannot be applied. For instance in my town of a little over100000 theres only 1 [franchised] stereo/electronics shop that may be able to order high ended gear. There used to be at least 5 but they've all gone the way of Bestbuy! So unless the retailer allows for exchanges your left with little option but to keep it or sell at a loss. Also its all subjective anyway as its been stated numerous times in this forum that snd is subjective to the listener and a product that snds like a definite improvement in one system may not be so much in another......So whats left-research research research [by what ever means], and the hope that your sending your valuable cash in the best fashion possible!

Yes research is good, however you always run the risk of buying something and it turns out not to your liking. You just never know if it will play nice with the rest of your associated gear. Personally I prefer reviews from those who are not paid, or have a vested interest in the product.This is why most of us are hounds on the used markets for gear or cables....speakers too. This stuff loses value fairly quickly and when you take into account what was high end a year or so ago, today it becomes within reach to normal joes on the used markets.

We still echo that good sound can be had for any wallet size. Just ask....many here have been around the block a time or 2 with various brands and can help guide you into making good decisions to fit your wallet.

dhart86

madmax

notified wrote: »

high grade wire such as monster brand.

Just spit soda across the screen, funny stuff!

F1nut

It's amazing how some simply ignore the cost of R&D, the cost of leasing a building, the cost of office equipment, the cost of materials, utilities, insurance, advertising, taxes, labor, etc. All the things it takes to run a business.

BlueFox

xcapri79 wrote: »

It's called marketing. Take a product that is worth about $10 and with great marketing you can sell it for $100 or more. There are many commodities that are marketed that way. Audio wire and cables are no different. They have some of the highest commodity profit margins in the business.

Unless you can provide the accounting records of cable manufacturers that show your silly statement you are just making something up. Typical nonsense.

lightman1

F1nut wrote: »

It's amazing how some simply ignore the cost of R&D, the cost of leasing a building, the cost of office equipment, the cost of materials, utilities, insurance, advertising, taxes, labor, etc. All the things it takes to run a business.

Huh? I thought they did it for poots and giggles.....
And then collect all our money, laughing all the way to the bank. R&D??? I thought they just put some nice heat shrink on the ends of a 14 guage drop cord and waved magic power crystals over them all while chanting the specs sheet of a really nice amp.?????

Mine eyes are now opened!!!

notified

Madmax-Glad to hear you got quite the humorous kick from my brand example! Curious though, in your entertainment did you take the time to read ahead to see what that comment was in reference too? Or did you just chime in with ignorance to the relevance of the threads previous posts [as far to many on this forum seem to do].For if you did take the time you might have come to realize that I was using Monster brand as example of [may be it through marketing] a standard high grade [speaker wire] or zip as its apparently referred to, and in no way comparing it to high end speaker cable,My bad if their product isn't worthy to use as a reputable respected high grade example of zip type wire.I assumed they used a quality copper oxygen free multi strand design and may include a dialectic braid core as the Acoustic Research [pro 2 series] that I currently use [for budgetary reasons,] In my ignorance I just assumed that among most quality manufactured brands of this type there wouldn't be much variance,Since your obviously knowledgeable in this regard could you offer some suggestions that may make a pronounced improvement over what I'm running now.but remain cost comparative to my current wire?

notified

I'd liKe to add my apologies for altering the coarse of this thread when I posted reference to audiohokics site as a information source for the original poster's question of "will a long spk cable run incur any significant signal reduction".The inquiry intrigued me enough to ask the google bar and glancing over their web page they seemed to have a good write up of various topics relating to spk wire and a link to the topic that technically explained the question asked,I neglected to read the opening comments that suggested disregarding the marketing hype of high end cable and quickly glanced through the rest to find the recommendation stating that with increased gauge fairly long runs wouldn't incur any transmission loss [in what I assumed was referred to be standard high grade multi strand copper wire.] I there by naturally assumed this principle would apply in the use of high ended cable too.[no reference to snd performance with increased gauge was ever implied or mentioned] Again my apologies if this was misinterpreted and misleading to the use of high end cable as logically there must be some percentage of noted performance gain if audio stereo professionals and high end audiophiles are using it to get the maximum performance from their high dollar investment.However I do subscribe to the concept that despite the R/D and manufacturing expenses,and business expenditures the ultra high dollar examples still represent the most profitable mark up in the audio marketplace

tonyb

X,
I find it a tad hypocritical that you use Monster cable, the brand that started the marketing hype, over Monoprice or straight Home depot wire. If you actually believe what you say, you wouldn't.

Sometimes in Audio, peoples opinions follow the size of their wallets. This is especially true when it comes to cables.

notified

Tony no offense but through your replies I'm beginning to suspect you have a problem following what your reading.Please re-read the post to which your referring. At no time did I say I use monster brand! I even definitively stated the brand I'm currently using and the reason for it!! Monster was used as a example of a zip cord brand of decent quality FURTHERMORE I said it may be considered as such through marketing!!Sometimes in life people have to remove their heads from their **** to fully comprehend the world around them!,My apologies for being so forward but given the circumstances I can see no other option

pumpkinman

I think if you read Tony's post it starts with X

tonyb

I was responding to XCapri. Though to be fair, the wife says I have a hard time following her, mainly because I'm not listening. lol

notified

Tony-my sincere apologies the x seemed rather vague especially when everyone does the high lite thing so I assumed you were referring in sequence to my last post Again with all humility incurred my humble apology!!!

tonyb

No problems pal, happens a lot around here. Rock on...

pumpkinman

@notified
Careful I'd hate for you to be shunned. LOL

notified

forgive me I'm Irish

tonyb

notified wrote: »

forgive me I'm Irish

Irish/Italian myself, god knows I've had to use that as an excuse many a times. lol

heiney9

xcapri79 wrote: »

notified wrote: »

Tony-Again I'm a newbie layman on the technical aspects and obviously quite low on the learning curve and haven't done the research pertaining to these mega dollar high end wires,But is it safe to assume then that thru new materials and manufacturing aspects that current still cant be carried efficiently by a smaller gauge wire that equals that of thicker gauged [standard] high grade wire such as monster brand.If so wouldn't the same basic gauged to length recommendations apply? And in the manufacturing of high end quality wire wouldn't they use some sort of testing equipment to assist in the R and D or do they just make it and say ok guys give this a listen and tell me what you think,then try something else to see if there's a improvement

It's called marketing. Take a product that is worth about $10 and with great marketing you can sell it for $100 or more. There are many commodities that are marketed that way. Audio wire and cables are no different. They have some of the highest commodity profit margins in the business.

I hear this a lot in cable debates....................except I've never seen any proof. And as F1 said, what about all those costs. How do you price and idea or a concept? Who decides what the intellectual property is worth? Bruce Bisson who started MIT had some idea's about cables, who decides what his ideas are worth?

If multi hundred dollar cables aren't for you, then don't buy them and go on your merry way.

Why does every cable crusader feel they have to save everyone from themselves? I don't get that. Are you dealing with some sort of inferiority or shortcoming in your life so you feel the need to do this?

There are far, far, far more worthy causes to be saving people from then what you perceive as overspending on audio cables.

Get a life............

H9

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

[Why does every cable crusader feel they have to save everyone from themselves?
H9

LOL, sad but true. Not just with cables but audio in general. All amps sound the same, cables don't matter, tubes are old technology, dacs all sound the same, all digital transmission is the same, etc.

Like I keep saying, most of this comes from those who feel a need to justify why they won't venture into more expensive things. The same way some try and justify a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus isn't worth the money. Designer clothes, shoes, appliances, you name it. They'd argue a 300 buck GE oven would cook the same as a Wolf.

The common denominator is always the wallet. Which is fine, not everyone can afford nicer things, but good sound doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg as we keep preaching. There is, or seems to be, an illusion to audio that dictates spending more money isn't worth it and those that do are silly and need to be saved from their evil ways of supporting excessive profits.

I will never know what it feels like to drive a Ferrari, doesn't mean I can't appreciate what it is though and those who can afford it. Doesn't mean I'll compare it to a Ford Taurus either and claim it does the same thing for less money.

We all live within our means, or try to anyway. No matter what those means are, you can up your game in audio for not a lot of scratch, if you listen to those who have been there, done that, with a variety of gear and cables. Like I said, on the internet everyone has an opinion, but only those opinions based with something tangible behind them should carry any weight.

tonyb

Point taken X, but to elaborate more.....Freedom to make the choices, absolutely, but if you make no choices you aren't gaining anything. If you don't explore your options, you won't discover anything. If you don't do a bit of trial and error, you'll go nowhere.

Did science make leaps and bounds by accepting the status quo of the times ? Hardly not right ? If one is happy in their audio as is, stop and enjoy the tunes. If one is curious, maybe wishes to improve their audio, spread out and experiment a bit within your means. Not such a hard concept to follow. Life is too short to live in a box of viewpoints.

BlueFox

xcapri79 wrote: »

Bluefox is certainly in error with his comments.

My comment was you have no proof that cable manufacturers are overly inflating their prices. If I am in error then please provide the proof. Otherwise your posts on this subject just appear to be your usual unsupported opinion that is constantly stated as fact.

nooshinjohn

tonyb wrote: »

Like I keep saying, most of this comes from those who feel a need to justify why they won't venture into more expensive things. The same way some try and justify a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus isn't worth the money. Designer clothes, shoes, appliances, you name it. They'd argue a 300 buck GE oven would cook the same as a Wolf

I will never know what it feels like to drive a Ferrari, doesn't mean I can't appreciate what it is though and those who can afford it. Doesn't mean I'll compare it to a Ford Taurus either and claim it does the same thing for less money.

I have driven a few Ferrari, but I would opt for the corvette instead for the maintenance costs alone. I am also told I should have just bought a ford instead of my Jaguar and saved the money. Truth is I never buy new and I could not have bought a new entry level Kia for what I picked up my XJ8 for.

With audio, I agree on budgetary concerns, but it also comes down or how you shop as well.

tonyb

I didn't say or imply ALL possibilities. I said "within ones means". Bad experiences are just as useful as good ones, that is how we learn, not just in audio but many things in life. Nothing ventured nothing gained, you can't be afraid of failure in anything.

There's lots of real estate between 1000 buck cables and Monster cable. Many brands, many price points, it's not simply a matter of cheap vs. expensive as some like to frame it.

mikeyb128

If the problem here is over inflation of cables. You should see the mark up on car parts, and clothing.

tonyb

.....and I'll post my response from that thread too.

they've been measuring that for some time, it's nothing new and many cable builders take that all into consideration and much further still.

I don't see what test can compare anything to human hearing as like we say, the human hearing part is a moving target. I know of no test, measuring instrument that can graph soundstage width/height/depth, place instruments on a stage, measure the tone of the notes or air around them.

This really is a subject that one has to experience for themselves. Once you start with "Here's something on the net", your already behind the 8 ball. Go get your ears on a variety, you don't even have to buy anything. Hi-fi shops, Polk members who host little get togethers. Ask on the forum who's close to you, put aside a couple hours to chew the fat and listen. Get signed up when we do demo rounds of cables or other gear. Only cost ya shipping as a way to get your ears on stuff.

I might add that getting the signal from point a to point b is the goal of any cable. Getting it intact is another story. Many different ways to do that, along with different materials, quality and designs. Those different ways also leave different sound signatures because of the varying processes used.

tonyb

Same can be said about pre-amps, amps, dacs, etc. A percentage of gain can be small to large depending. When added up though, can be absolutely huge. Talk to folks who have evolved their systems from just 3 years ago and ask them if all the changes they made sums up to just a small jump in SQ from where they started.

There is more to building a system than just any one component, just like building a race car. You don't take a stock car, throw a big engine in it and call it a day.

motorhead43026