Is Apple making a big mistake....

tonyb

That was my solution also. Just give it to apple, let them do what they need to do in privacy, hand over the info and everyone is happy. Almost everyone, because this isn't about just one phone as some suggests.

megasat16

I have a question to all the phone privacy guys. Other than your credit cards info and the pictures (or video) of the hot chick you were with last night, what other things in your cell phone are so important to protect from your wife or from the interest of the National Security of this country?

I am not saying Uncle Sam is always right and they have not already over reached into our private life. But preventing another 9 - 11 comes before the lame excuse that Apple is using.

EndersShadow

megasat16 wrote: »

I have a question to all the phone privacy guys. Other than your credit cards info and the pictures (or video) of the hot chick you were with last night, what other things in your cell phone are so important to protect from your wife or from the interest of the National Security of this country?

I am not saying Uncle Sam is always right and they have not already over reached into our private life. But preventing another 9 - 11 comes before the lame excuse that Apple is using.

Here is a better question.... Do you TRUST the government to act appropriately and NOT overstep their boundaries? Do you REALLY think this will be a ONE TIME deal.... Or is it just a precedent to force it to become commonplace for this to be done? Just look at all the stuff they ALREADY do without asking (mass collection of all phone records without a warrants)?

Do you "really" think there is actually going to be anything on that phone worthwhile? And in exchange we give up one more piece of ourselves to the government.

And as pointed out by others, if the company, which is a GLOBAL company and does business EVERYWHERE is forced to that for US... Well I'm sure China would like some of that... and they also have the leverage to force Apple to comply...

So then cell phones become something that is basically bugged and controlled and listened to at any point by the government... And who knows if the people in charge will make the right decisions later on as to what to do with that data.

Next thing you know we are living as portrayed in 1984...

And maybe I'm paranoid, but from what we've seen lately, I'm afraid I'm not and most people are just to lackadaisical to notice their privacy getting slowly chipped away bit by bit.

mhardy6647

Is the alternative perhaps a world where no nation's government has sufficent leverage to enforce compliance by a for-profit company answering only to its shareholders?

That scenario makes me a little nervous too (maybe I'd feel better if I owned some Apple stock?).

maximillian

Careful what you wish for. What does "enforce compliance" mean? There are limits on what the government can force you to do, and for a good reason. The government can force you to turn over evidence under reasonable suspicion of a crime. However, can the government force you to help them accomplish this task?

It's one thing to force turning over evidence with a court order. However, should the government force Apple to spend man-hours to create a tool to help them with their own investigation. Those are two separate things.

Here's something sort-of related: can the government force YOU (an individual) to unlock your phone's passcode if they have reasonable suspicion you committed a crime? Does this constitute something analogous as in turning over a key to a safe? Or is it a protection to remain silent via the 5th amendment? There has been some courts ruling that "no, you do not have 5th amendment protection" to passcodes whereas others have ruling the opposite. It looks like the majority are leaning towards that it is a 5th amendment protection, but I am not sure it is accepted universally state-to-state.

Yes, Apple is not the one being accused of a crime so there's no 5th amendment issue in their case. However, the outcome of the Apple issue may have some ramifications on individuals and the 5th amendment. Losing that privileged should make you nervous. It may extend to even allowing the police to search your phone even for a routine traffic stop.

BlueFox

While an interesting thread, I think the doom and gloom being proposed if Apple has to access this one phone is getting pretty far fetched. Personally, I would be more worried if the government wanted the key to decipher the encrypted messages being sent to/from any phone.

[Deleted User]

I really don't understand this pro and con stuff. What does the FBI want?

They want a special iOS so they could unlock this phone. Okay. I get that. But how the eff are you going to install it without the password for permission to install in the first place?

Then. Every call or text, placed or received is in the phone company carriers records.

So. What's all the fuss about again?

halen

kevhed72

Again.....they went before a judge and were granted a warrant to "search" this phone first, correct? Why is Apple above the law in this case....and how does unlocking one phone put every phone in danger of becoming unsecure, especially if Apple handles the unlocking end of things and hands the data over to law enforcement.

BlueFox

I wonder the same thing about installing it. Personally, I would bet that Apple can already do this, and has done it for development and testing purposes. If they can't then they have hired dummy engineers, and I don't believe that.

kevhed72

EndersShadow wrote: »

megasat16 wrote: »

I have a question to all the phone privacy guys. Other than your credit cards info and the pictures (or video) of the hot chick you were with last night, what other things in your cell phone are so important to protect from your wife or from the interest of the National Security of this country?

I am not saying Uncle Sam is always right and they have not already over reached into our private life. But preventing another 9 - 11 comes before the lame excuse that Apple is using.

Here is a better question.... Do you TRUST the government to act appropriately and NOT overstep their boundaries? Do you REALLY think this will be a ONE TIME deal.... Or is it just a precedent to force it to become commonplace for this to be done? Just look at all the stuff they ALREADY do without asking (mass collection of all phone records without a warrants)?

Do you "really" think there is actually going to be anything on that phone worthwhile? And in exchange we give up one more piece of ourselves to the government.

And as pointed out by others, if the company, which is a GLOBAL company and does business EVERYWHERE is forced to that for US... Well I'm sure China would like some of that... and they also have the leverage to force Apple to comply...

So then cell phones become something that is basically bugged and controlled and listened to at any point by the government... And who knows if the people in charge will make the right decisions later on as to what to do with that data.

Next thing you know we are living as portrayed in 1984...

And maybe I'm paranoid, but from what we've seen lately, I'm afraid I'm not and most people are just to lackadaisical to notice their privacy getting slowly chipped away bit by bit.

This 1984 scenario really got started right after 9/11....unlocking one iPhone is a drop in the ocean compared to what privacy rights we gave up under the Patriot Act.

[Deleted User]

BlueFox wrote: »

I wonder the same thing about installing it. Personally, I would bet that Apple can already do this, and has done it for development and testing purposes. If they can't then they have hired dummy engineers, and I don't believe that.

Those that don't know continue to not. You are right. How will they install a temp to do anything without a password.

Regardless. I know with absolute certainty that companies mine data. That is a fact.

Halen

tonyb

kevhed72 wrote: »

Again.....they went before a judge and were granted a warrant to "search" this phone first, correct? Why is Apple above the law in this case....and how does unlocking one phone put every phone in danger of becoming unsecure, especially if Apple handles the unlocking end of things and hands the data over to law enforcement.

We've explained it a couple times over.

BTW, this isn't the first phone Apple has refused. This isn't about unlocking one phone, if it was there would be no story here.

Apple can also make a case that writing code is a form of free speech, thus protected.

motorhead43026

The best analogy I can come up with for this Apple situation is, like burning down the whole house to rid it of one bedbug. How about the FBI do it's job and thwart these situations before these happen. Or do we change the FBI to the AFBI. The After the Fact Bureau Of Investigation.

kevhed72

tonyb wrote: »

kevhed72 wrote: »

Again.....they went before a judge and were granted a warrant to "search" this phone first, correct? Why is Apple above the law in this case....and how does unlocking one phone put every phone in danger of becoming unsecure, especially if Apple handles the unlocking end of things and hands the data over to law enforcement.

We've explained it a couple times over.

BTW, this isn't the first phone Apple has refused. This isn't about unlocking one phone, if it was there would be no story here.

Apple can also make a case that writing code is a form of free speech, thus protected.

I get all that....I guess I'm calling BS on Apples stance on this. What they are using is fear and far fetched what if scenarios to scare people onto their side. Similar to what other groups do....scaring people to achieve their end. Writing code is not free speech...its Apple wrapping itself in the Constitution. When we start giving, or when we started, giving companies the same protections as corporations as individuals.....we are screwed. Just another side of things....

tonyb

motorhead43026 wrote: »

The best analogy I can come up with for this Apple situation is, like burning down the whole house to rid it of one bedbug. How about the FBI do it's job and thwart these situations before these happen. Or do we change the FBI to the AFBI. The After the Fact Bureau Of Investigation.

Haha....gotta steal that.....AFBI. LOL

Sad but true. It's not just the FBI, but local law enforcement also plus various other agencies. Most have their hands tied from lack of will to enforce our borders, immigration, profiling directives, racial considerations, etc. Seems to me the only thing hampering the FBI's abilities are it's own bosses higher up the chain.

Just like a boat with a hole in it. You wait until the water has flooded the cabin before plugging the hole ? If you wait too long, your only option is to abandon ship.

They all have a tough job to do, no doubt, but I don't think it's Apple making their jobs tougher. National security has become a catch phrase to do things government normally couldn't do. The definition is so broad as to cover anything, to trump anything, that your rights can easily be thwarted.

motorhead43026

They all have a tough job to do, no doubt, but I don't think it's Apple making their jobs tougher.

Exactly

westmassguy

la2vegas wrote: »

Breaking news. The FBI has finally gotten a third party to crack the code on the San Bernardino terrorists iphone. However the FBI declined to disclose what information they were able to retrieve. After All the hoopla and the posturing by the feds I doubt there was any worthwhile information there to begin with.

The FBI was simply trying to use this traggic event to further the erosion of the freedom that makes this nation great. I have nothing to hide but don't trample on my constitutional rights in order to fulfill their agenda through the guise of national security snd hysteria.

Something tells me they had that already, but wanted to force Apple to build an OS with a back door anyway.

EndersShadow

Yup, they were attempting to set a precedence... which they did not....

So yeah......

tonyb

Apparently, it was the Israeli's who helped them. With all our tech guru's, it took a small nation out in the desert to figure this out.

Problem of course is, now that info is in our governments hands and what will be done with it going forward is anyone's guess.

mhardy6647

tonyb wrote: »

Apparently, it was the Israelis who helped them. With all our tech guru's, it took a small nation out in the desert to figure this out.
...

A small nation (with quite a bit of agriculturally valuable land, a "Mediterranean" climate and not just desert), but with a huge national interest in/stake in, security issues. :- ) (EDIT: and a longstanding and deliberately cultivated leadership role in science and technology matters of many kinds).

Long ago, I worked for a biotech company which was developing anti-cancer drugs using the profoundly toxic lectin (carbohydrate binding protein of nonimmune origin) called "ricin". Ricin is found in castor beans. It's a fascinating toxic enzyme. Because its toxicity derives from its enzyme activity, it is incredibly toxic -- one molecule of ricin can kill a cell.

At the time, the world's largest producer of pure ricin was -- a company in Israel.

As George Carlin said, "You don't have to be Fellini to figure that one out."

westmassguy

Intel also tasked their Israeli division with creating the CORE processor. Lot of smart people over there, for a small country.

mhardy6647

They (Israel) go out of their way to make themselves viable as a country. Can't imagine why they'd be nervous about their viability ;- )

In all seriousness, Israel's a longstanding major player in my line o' work (glycobiology), too.

Mikey081057

I guess where you stand on this juxtaposes your position on this:

If you are Pro Apple you are applauding their not giving in to the Feds.

If you are not Pro Apple you might say: So now their crypto is broken and that it can be broken and that it is not safe again. If I was was Apple I would not like that some other entity broke my encryption. The can put a happy face on it from a political level but from a tech perspective this is the worse case scenario. It is never good when you say something won't or can't be done and somebody else comes along and does it.

Nightfall

Apple has already been working on new encryption

Nightfall

http://9to5mac.com/2016/02/25/apple-working-on-stronger-icloud-backup-encryption-and-iphone-security-to-counter-fbi-unlock-requests/

Mikey081057

Nightfall wrote: »

Apple has already been working on new encryption

So now they are vulnerable until they patch their encryption.

motorhead43026

I am not pro Apple, but I agreed with their stance.

Nightfall

Technically. If you know how to dial up Isreal. I think they (Apple) saw this coming, that article was a month ago.

EndersShadow

motorhead43026 wrote: »

I am not pro Apple, but I agreed with their stance.

The same

Nightfall wrote: »

Technically. If you know how to dial up Isreal. I think they (Apple) saw this coming, that article was a month ago.

Yeah, but some of the possible ways they went about it are not for the faint of heart, IE your basic computer hacker. The guess is that it was a physical hardware thing, not something you could do with JUST software through the web.

mhardy6647

Mikey081057 wrote: »

I guess where you stand on this juxtaposes your position on this:

If you are Pro Apple you are applauding their not giving in to the Feds.

If you are not Pro Apple you might say: So now their crypto is broken and that it can be broken and that it is not safe again. If I was was Apple I would not like that some other entity broke my encryption. The can put a happy face on it from a political level but from a tech perspective this is the worse case scenario. It is never good when you say something won't or can't be done and somebody else comes along and does it.

Apple's corporate spin is that the San Ber'dino phone was only successfully hacked/cracked because it was an old phone. The current iPhone "technology", they strongly imply, is uncrackable. Something about an additional on-board computer that protects the encrypted data, at least according to NPR this morning.

So... as long as you buy a new iPhone every time Apple burps up a new one, you're golden.

Apple's marketing strategy, as usual, appears to be impeccable.