Is Apple making a big mistake....

nooshinjohn

Nice straw man there...

I don't want to get into politics here, but I will say this much. I don't want the government anywhere near my home or my wallet. I don't think they have any business doing 90 percent of what they do, including spying on every day Americans. It is illegal and unconstitutional, PERIOD!

It is also illegal to be a terrorist, and one of the government's only responsibilities is to protect us from harm, both at home and abroad. If there is information on that one phone that can save a life, the government's duty is to use that data to save it. A company that prevents access to such data would be rightly accused of treason, if this conversation was taking place in WWII.

Make no mistake here, we are at war, and no quarter (safe haven for those in Rio Linda) should be afforded the enemy. Apple keeps their proprietary iOS, and the methods to extract such data top secret, and in their sole possession. They only use it under court order and provide only the data to authorities. What is wrong with that?

mrbiron

I still can't fathom why anyone would ever side with Apple in this scenario? They killed innocent human beings. If your mother, sister, wife, child, neighbor was shot during this escapade, would you side with Apple? If you hesitated on that question, you are a bonehead.

Get off the Apple Elitism here. Nobody is saying your precious apple products are junk.

Ctrl Copy.....Ctrl Paste....thrown phone into recycling bin.

Mikey081057

I think the emotional attachment some people have to Apple shouldn't have any weight in the debate. Apple is just using this as a marketing gimmick to attract and maintain the "we don't have to listen to the Government" constituency. The next thing the Courts should do is put the responsible Apple guy in jail until they comply. That is what they would do if it was you or I. But that won't happen b/c of all the campaign contributions (aka protection money) Apple has made to the people in power. F Apple... I find it hilarious that the $1.50 per hour company that makes 78% profit on their products and doesn't pay any taxes on those profits to the US is the darling of the anti-corporation movement.

Don't they need to be a responsible corporation and pay their "fair share"?

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

I can't cut Apple any slack on this issue. They can't hide behind the Constitution and expect to get away from doing their duty. Especially since they keep billions of dollars in profit overseas so they can avoid paying tax on it. F them, and Google, and all the other parasitic tax dodging companies.

I understand your sentiment Fox, and I agree with you, but different issues there.

The constitution was set up in such a way to limit government powers, not expand them. If the government did it's constitutionally granted job of securing our borders, scrutinizing who comes and goes better, we would not be facing terrorists threats like we see today. You don't let them in the door and then deal with them. Isn't that one of the rules of war....fight the enemy where they are ?

Our intelligence agencies can infiltrate foreign terrorist organizations to gather information....but they can't here ? I call bull on that....they need apple to act on their behalf ?

Like with all electronics, maybe the FBI should give the phone to a 17 year old student from China. They can crack anything. We have hackers that can break security to most any government around the globe, even Nasa and Homeland security, I find it hard to believe a cell phone has them stumped.

You have to look beyond the face value of the case. First question should be why are they bringing this up now. A good chunk of time has passed, they just started to look at the phone ? Nope, they are making an issue out of it to get it before the SC, a power grab, and now is there best chance since we are minus one judge.

tonyb

That said, I do believe Apple should open that one phone and hand over the info. Not provide a back door program that can be hacked, or give anyone the keys to their Kingdom. I'm not an Apple fanboy either, but we have separate issues here. Cheap labor and taxes paid or not paid is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

maximillian

This should have been done in less public scrutiny, and with a warrant of course (which they had). This would allow the feds to work closer with Apple. Now that it's more public, lines are being drawn in the sand.

From what I have read more recently it doesn't seem that the feds want the encryption bypassed. What they want is the 10 failed attempt phone erasure feature disabled. This is a custom iOS. I understand that such a custom firmware is dangerous outside of Apple. So why can't Apple make the feds do the brute-force work within Apple's walls. Apple could modify the firmware so the feds could do the work. But the phone would not be allowed to leave Apple's premises. If other governments ever wanted the same thing then they would be forced to do so in Apple's labs only. Is there a problem with this setup?

God forbid another terrorist attack occurs. If so, Apple is going to quickly be in a very bad public spotlight.

EndersShadow

I realize its a unique circumstance but the issue here is when does a one time event ever become just a one time event when it comes to the government.

Lets say Apple does it, and then destroys the code. Do you think that would stop the FBI from asking again? And do you think Apple wouldn't anticipate this and save a copy somewhere so they didnt have to spend more manhours to re-create it.... Then what if say ISIS, or even a homegrown group hacked and got it?

Its not possible to create a backdoor for use just once. Because once people know its possible, they will try harder to do it. And then you have to create a program to ensure the folks using the software are the right people, etc... you just create an endless loop.

I'm afraid that by focusing and assuming that we just do it THIS ONCE... that we lose focus on the fact that it CAN be done, which creates another issue.

My favorite quote I go back to over and over again is this:

”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.” - Ben Franklin.

I prefer to be VERY cautious when it comes to giving the government access to anything of mine. I'm afraid we tend to give up our liberty far to often for little to no gain of security. If all our data gathering we do (hello NSA) fails so bad that the ONE thing we HAVE TO HAVE to backtrack this group/cell, is a single persons phone.... well then that says a lot about our security....

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

This should have been done in less public scrutiny, and with a warrant of course (which they had). This would allow the feds to work closer with Apple. Now that it's more public, lines are being drawn in the sand.

From what I have read more recently it doesn't seem that the feds want the encryption bypassed. What they want is the 10 failed attempt phone erasure feature disabled. This is a custom iOS. I understand that such a custom firmware is dangerous outside of Apple. So why can't Apple make the feds do the brute-force work within Apple's walls. Apple could modify the firmware so the feds could do the work. But the phone would not be allowed to leave Apple's premises. If other governments ever wanted the same thing then they would be forced to do so in Apple's labs only. Is there a problem with this setup?

God forbid another terrorist attack occurs. If so, Apple is going to quickly be in a very bad public spotlight.

maximillian wrote: »

This should have been done in less public scrutiny, and with a warrant of course (which they had). This would allow the feds to work closer with Apple. Now that it's more public, lines are being drawn in the sand.

From what I have read more recently it doesn't seem that the feds want the encryption bypassed. What they want is the 10 failed attempt phone erasure feature disabled. This is a custom iOS. I understand that such a custom firmware is dangerous outside of Apple. So why can't Apple make the feds do the brute-force work within Apple's walls. Apple could modify the firmware so the feds could do the work. But the phone would not be allowed to leave Apple's premises. If other governments ever wanted the same thing then they would be forced to do so in Apple's labs only. Is there a problem with this setup?

God forbid another terrorist attack occurs. If so, Apple is going to quickly be in a very bad public spotlight.

....and if it did it would be Apple's fault ? Since when was it Apple's job to keep you safe ? Who's job is it anyway ?

....and how easy or hard is that job with an open border policy ? Everything runs hand in hand. An open border policy brings to bear the need for additional security, the need for less privacy, the need for gun control....in other words, the need for more government, not less.

Who's failed at their job/responsibilities ? Apple ? Government ? You decide that one, but the answer is pretty clear to me.

motorhead43026

Apple is doing the right thing in protecting your constitutional rights. It is not their place to jeopardize these rights. I am really astounded they are holding their ground.

************************************************************************************

Former NSA and CIA Director Michael Hayden


On the debate over whether or not Apple should provide the FBI access to one of the San Bernardino shooters’ iPhone’s, Hayden has sided with Apple. He told Golodryga: “I must admit, my old tribe is not unanimous on the view I’ve taken, but there are other folks like me, other former directors of the NSA who have said building in backdoors universally in Apple or other devices actually is bad for America. I think we can all agree it’s bad for American privacy. We’re arguing it’s bad for American security in terms of what adversaries will be able to do against U.S. citizens

mrbiron

Boy, i hope Bin Laden's Iphone never surfaces

Mikey081057

So I guess the answer IS to keep people who could potentially do us harm out of the country. Because we can't get out of our own way when it comes to dealing with them. I guess we are driven to that as Apple has made terrorists a protected class. Apple needs to lawyer up and either give up the data or go to court/prison. I'm ok with either but stop trying to try this in the court of public opinion for your marketing purposes. For the mean time let's put another W in the terrorists column as they are better at figuring out ways to beat us than we are them. I would be interested to see how the supporters of Apple's disobedience of a federal court order line up with pouring a glass of water over a terrorist's face. And you have to ask yourself would your opinion change if it happened to someone dear to you.

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

I can't cut Apple any slack on this issue. They can't hide behind the Constitution and expect to get away from doing their duty. Especially since they keep billions of dollars in profit overseas so they can avoid paying tax on it. F them, and Google, and all the other parasitic tax dodging companies.

I understand your sentiment Fox, and I agree with you, but different issues there.

The constitution was set up in such a way to limit government powers, not expand them. If the government did it's constitutionally granted job of securing our borders, scrutinizing who comes and goes better, we would not be facing terrorists threats like we see today. You don't let them in the door and then deal with them. Isn't that one of the rules of war....fight the enemy where they are ?

Our intelligence agencies can infiltrate foreign terrorist organizations to gather information....but they can't here ? I call bull on that....they need apple to act on their behalf ?

Like with all electronics, maybe the FBI should give the phone to a 17 year old student from China. They can crack anything. We have hackers that can break security to most any government around the globe, even Nasa and Homeland security, I find it hard to believe a cell phone has them stumped.

You have to look beyond the face value of the case. First question should be why are they bringing this up now. A good chunk of time has passed, they just started to look at the phone ? Nope, they are making an issue out of it to get it before the SC, a power grab, and now is there best chance since we are minus one judge.

Careful there, Tony! I have a nephew that fits that Chinese iphone hacking teenager description, lol

It's pretty ridiculous that the Gov't doesn't have a "hacker" who can do what, I assume, a few, and yes, some in China, can and do so every day?

tonyb

Wouldn't that be a bi@ch if they open that phone and only find a Domino's pizza order, and a Girl friend revenge site. All the wasted time and money.....well almost wasted. The GR site is worth looking at.

maximillian

tonyb wrote: »

....and if it did it would be Apple's fault ? Since when was it Apple's job to keep you safe ? Who's job is it anyway ?

Of course it's not their fault nor their responsibility. But if something bad happens and there is an iota of connection with the San Bernardino scumbags then you know the feds are going to have a media spectacle and say that they could have avoided it if Apple had cooperated.

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

....and if it did it would be Apple's fault ? Since when was it Apple's job to keep you safe ? Who's job is it anyway ?

Of course it's not their fault nor their responsibility. But if something bad happens and there is an iota of connection with the San Bernardino scumbags then you know the feds are going to have a media spectacle and say that they could have avoided it if Apple had cooperated.

.....and that would be a bunch of baloney....because they don't know whats on that phone, if anything at all.

Now that we have who's job it is and who bears the responsibility out of the way, look at what they are doing, or not doing, and move in that direction.

Would you like me to start ?

How about allowing those who let them into this country the ability to look at their social media. If they weren't handcuffed in doing so, they would have seen these peoples radical agenda posted on their social media and denied them entry, saving all those lives.

How about that open border policy ? How does that help law enforcement ? Simple answer is it doesn't. 2 simple things that will help curtail these events.

A third would be to have the social media giants erase all forms of recruitment attempts aimed at the home grown terrorist.

Want a forth ?
How about having colleges stop inciting the young mush minds to rise up and rebel, to hate their country, their ethnicity.

mhardy6647

I keep thinking of Geraldo Rivera and Al Capone's vault -- many of youse mugs probably are old enough to remember that...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mystery_of_Al_Capone's_Vaults

tonyb

Dude, like everyone else I was glued to the tv. I've been in those tunnels, nostalgic yes, but nothing enlightening.

Nightfall

This is interesting

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/02/25/apple-reportedly-designs-new-security-against-fbi-access

Apple is doubling down on iOS encryption in response to government hacking.

Spinning out of the Apple and FBI conflict over backdoor entry into iOS devices, Apple is looking for new and better ways to block access to its customers' information, according to the New York Times.

toucanet

This delicate matter is akin to Pandora's box. Apple should (and probably will) fight this all the way to the SCOTUS.

Here's an article that may be of interest:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/24/technology/justice-department-wants-apple-to-unlock-nine-more-iphones.html?_r=0

Once this door is opened, it will never be able to be closed again.

BlueFox

I am still having a problem understanding how cracking one phone leads to all phones being vulnerable. Of course Apple should resist any old request to open a phone, but I have no problem with them doing it for an extraordinarily situation. Such as this situation. Granted, we do need good guidance as to what is 'extraordinary', and that needs to be addressed. Sorry, but the BS Patriot Act does not count.

tonyb

Fox, they would have to write new software to do that. By doing so, it would then be open to hacks. If the FBI came to them off the bat BEFORE they turned it into a brick, Apple could have done what they wanted privately.

The software to do this doesn't even exist is the point. The Feds want apple to write the software to open this phone, and all others. Apple has a leg to stand on imho, the Keystone cops don't....unless absolute unwarranted spying is ok with anyone, like it is already.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/25/at-least-23-states-now-employ-stingray-technology-allowing-police-to-grab-your-cell-phone-data-text-messages-and-more-without-a-warrant/

markmarc

Apple should have a way to turn off the "10 tries and the phone is permanently bricked" effect. Beyond that, then it is up to the agencies to get in on their own.

Something smells big time in all of this. Various gov't agencies are squawking right and left on this just too hard. It would not surprise me at all if the NSA/CIA/FBI/DIA have already cracked the phone and are throwing up a smokescreen to make ISIS think they are safe.

kevhed72

Mikey081057 wrote: »

I think the emotional attachment some people have to Apple shouldn't have any weight in the debate. Apple is just using this as a marketing gimmick to attract and maintain the "we don't have to listen to the Government" constituency. The next thing the Courts should do is put the responsible Apple guy in jail until they comply. That is what they would do if it was you or I. But that won't happen b/c of all the campaign contributions (aka protection money) Apple has made to the people in power. F Apple... I find it hilarious that the $1.50 per hour company that makes 78% profit on their products and doesn't pay any taxes on those profits to the US is the darling of the anti-corporation movement.

Don't they need to be a responsible corporation and pay their "fair share"?

Amen brother.....spare us the high and mighty platitudes Tim Cook and pay your company's taxes....or look into your vendors' well documented worker abuses over the years. I really think Apple will regret handling this whole thing in such a public forum some day.

kevhed72

BlueFox wrote: »

I am still having a problem understanding how cracking one phone leads to all phones being vulnerable. Of course Apple should resist any old request to open a phone, but I have no problem with them doing it for an extraordinarily situation. Such as this situation. Granted, we do need good guidance as to what is 'extraordinary', and that needs to be addressed. Sorry, but the BS Patriot Act does not count.

I'm still searching for the answer myself....nobody can provide it to me either. Anyone, anyone....

tonyb

markmarc wrote: »

Apple should have a way to turn off the "10 tries and the phone is permanently bricked" effect. Beyond that, then it is up to the agencies to get in on their own.

Something smells big time in all of this. Various gov't agencies are squawking right and left on this just too hard. It would not surprise me at all if the NSA/CIA/FBI/DIA have already cracked the phone and are throwing up a smokescreen to make ISIS think they are safe.

They do have a way to turn off that feature, BEFORE it's enabled by idiots in the FBI who locked it trying to open it. That's why Cook has repeatedly said, if the FBI had come to them off the bat, none of this would have been an issue.

Personally I find it hard to believe the FBI didn't know this. Already talk of bringing it to the SC as I said they would for the obvious reasons. All the techy guru's the FBI employs and nobody knew this ? I call B.S.

After the phone is bricked, they are screwed. Apple themselves don't have a way in, and would need to write new software to open it. That is the point of contention for Apple. Writing the new software would open a back door to ALL phones, not just that one....and that's what the FBI wants.

maximillian

Here's a good summary of what the FBI wants:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35601035

So besides the 10 retry disabling they want the phone to go through the 10K number combinations itself and to do it quickly. So it sounds like a single button on the lock screen that says, "bypass passcode". Yeah, that's a backdoor. It's not just a disabling of a single feature.

Elsewhere there's mention that this isn't the only phone, there are many others out there. So basically, once the government gets this they will use it again and again. And there's a good chance that foreign government will demand the same thing. So I can see why it may become difficult to control.

rpf65

BlueFox wrote: »

I am still having a problem understanding how cracking one phone leads to all phones being vulnerable. Of course Apple should resist any old request to open a phone, but I have no problem with them doing it for an extraordinarily situation. Such as this situation. Granted, we do need good guidance as to what is 'extraordinary', and that needs to be addressed. Sorry, but the BS Patriot Act does not count.

rpf65

BlueFox wrote: »

I am still having a problem understanding how cracking one phone leads to all phones being vulnerable. Of course Apple should resist any old request to open a phone, but I have no problem with them doing it for an extraordinarily situation. Such as this situation. Granted, we do need good guidance as to what is 'extraordinary', and that needs to be addressed. Sorry, but the BS Patriot Act does not count.

Not really hard to understand. Apple says they can't access this phone without writing new code, and the only way to write this code would be for all their phones. The government says this is a one time use.

Those people who are siding with the government are basically saying it involves terrorism, and Apple should be forced to write the code. They can use it this one time, and destroy the code.

Those siding with Apple say they shouldn't be forced to write this code. I personally side with Apple, so I'm biased, but there is a lot of emotions involved here, so maybe a more basic approach is better.

Let's say that Apple knows their products better than the government, and whatever code they write will work for every phone out there. If that's the case, the one time use is already something that is already a stupid thought.

Apple doesn't want to write the code. Marketing ploy, or wanting to protect their customers information, it really doesn't matter. The government wants them to alter their product, even though they have been accused of no wrong doing.

My point of view is simple. Apples products threaten nobody. Apples products have injured nobody. The individuals have done that.

Apple says that writing new code to access this one code could jeopardize their other customers. Apple shouldn't be forced to do that.

I prefer the rule of law rather than the rule of man.

mrbigbluelight

maximillian wrote: »

Elsewhere there's mention that this isn't the only phone, there are many others out there. So basically, once the government gets this they will use it again and again. And there's a good chance that foreign government will demand the same thing. So I can see why it may become difficult to control.

BINGO

The country that manufactures Iphones comes to mind.
It seems that they also have problems with non-patriotic, seditious people and groups. Like the Falun Gong. So their future solution will/could be for Apple to start cracking their confiscated Iphones, too.

Our newfound friends in Iran ? They have their share of problems with malcontents such as the Kurdish Democratic Party. I'd wager that their Iphones contain information that would be most useful to Iranian authorities.

And so on and so on.

Do I support the FBI's demands ? Nope.
Do I think Tim Cook's motives are altruistic ? Nope.
But they'll do until something better comes down the road.

My suggestion for Apple would be something of a corporate solution.
Apple has total and secluded access to the Iphone in question. The FBI wants
the information on the Iphone. Apple gets that information, turns it over the FBI,
and keeps the Iphone. Their methods remain secret with Apple.
Apple, being a corporation, charges the FBI for it's services.
$1 million an hour.
FBI pays to play.

Kind of a shame that with all the alphabet letter "protectors" we have (FBI, NSA, HS, CIA, DOJ, etc) that no one had the ability to get this information on their own.
Kind of makes me wonder what the NSA's communications monitoring center out in Utah is doing. The Iphones "cloud" may have be disabled, but EVERYTHING is monitored/stored.
That center requires 60,000+ tons of cooling just for the servers. Pretty potent stuff, I'd say.

In any event, I've alerted the authorities that CNH has family ties with persons of a foreign country. The authorities will know what to do.

mrbiron

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

My suggestion for Apple would be something of a corporate solution.
Apple has total and secluded access to the Iphone in question. The FBI wants
the information on the Iphone. Apple gets that information, turns it over the FBI,
and keeps the Iphone. Their methods remain secret with Apple.

This is all that needs to happen. Who gives a flying f-bomb about the phone.
A 64GB pen drive is $75. Copy, paste.

Apple is ran by a single ****.
Government is run by thousands of ****.

Rick Moranis had it right. We're surrounded by ****....