2 x small or 1 x large?

I recently got the garage clean enough to install my HT gear. Although I have not run Audyssey yet, I have noticed the sub is most impactful at the back of the room on the side that its currently located, and almost non-existent in the listening area (room node?). Unfortunately, room is limited in the garage and the 4.0 cu ft box is hard to locate in any other places (read as there is really no point to sub crawl). Seems like having two subs helps with these types of situations, so should I go from 1 x 18" in a massive box, to 2 x 10's or 12's that I can locate more effectively in smaller enclosures (say 2 x 1.25 cu ft)?
5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
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Comments

  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 17,165
    lackboost wrote: »
    I recently got the garage clean enough to install my HT gear. Although I have not run Audyssey yet, I have noticed the sub is most impactful at the back of the room on the side that its currently located, and almost non-existent in the listening area (room node?). Unfortunately, room is limited in the garage and the 4.0 cu ft box is hard to locate in any other places (read as there is really no point to sub crawl). Seems like having two subs helps with these types of situations, so should I go from 1 x 18" in a massive box, to 2 x 10's or 12's that I can locate more effectively in smaller enclosures (say 2 x 1.25 cu ft)?

    Dumb question but any room in the ceiling for a couple subs? Gets them off the floor and to where you can make a couple really large boxes. Also opens up more options for placement, and my favorite type of sub an Infinite baffle configuration..
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • ZLTFULZLTFUL Posts: 5,509
    Output will be greater from a single 18...

    But placement and coverage will be easier/better with 2 subs. You also minimize room modes...
    The catch is, 2 10s wouldn't come close to giving you as satisfying output as a single 18.
    2 12s are borderline but won't dig as deep unless you do some serious work into a folded horn or the like.

    Ideally, 2 18s, sealed, will give you the deepest extension in a small(ish) footprint but you sacrifice some output. The nice part is though, you can throw gobs of power at a sealed sub without worrying about exceeding its mechanical limits.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
  • I really wish I had room for another 18. I am noticing today too, in some casual litening:

    BACK OF ROOM - HIGH AND LOW: Lots of clean bass
    LISTENING AREA - STANDING UP: Little bass
    LISTENING AREA - SITTING: No bass

    It's literally like hitting a switch...just no bass in the sitting area at all. I have a 15" Titanic. May try putting that in a sealed box and playing with it in the garage to see if I can get some bass in the listening area at all...
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • lackboost wrote: »
    I recently got the garage clean enough to install my HT gear. Although I have not run Audyssey yet, I have noticed the sub is most impactful at the back of the room on the side that its currently located, and almost non-existent in the listening area (room node?). Unfortunately, room is limited in the garage and the 4.0 cu ft box is hard to locate in any other places (read as there is really no point to sub crawl). Seems like having two subs helps with these types of situations, so should I go from 1 x 18" in a massive box, to 2 x 10's or 12's that I can locate more effectively in smaller enclosures (say 2 x 1.25 cu ft)?

    Dumb question but any room in the ceiling for a couple subs? Gets them off the floor and to where you can make a couple really large boxes. Also opens up more options for placement, and my favorite type of sub an Infinite baffle configuration..

    Unfortunately not...its a detached garage with a flat roof...
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • Check phase adjustment on your amp if you have one. The null in your seating area could be due to phase issues.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,986
    2 subs are always better then one UNLESS you can have perfect placement for your listening area.
    I strongly suggest selling the 18 inch and getting 2 10's. You will be more satisfied with the end results.
    If you can't hear the 18 inch then whats the point right?
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • Check phase adjustment on your amp if you have one. The null in your seating area could be due to phase issues.

    No phase adjustment, but I did mute the fronts, and clearly it's a null. As soon as I sit down, the bass dies.
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • mantis wrote: »
    2 subs are always better then one UNLESS you can have perfect placement for your listening area.
    I strongly suggest selling the 18 inch and getting 2 10's. You will be more satisfied with the end results.
    If you can't hear the 18 inch then whats the point right?

    I had the same thinking, but if the 18 is null in one of the few open spots I have, a 10 or 12 would be there too wouldn't it? I did a mini crawl to see if there would be any improvement over in two spots where I might be able to place the cabinet. One did provide an improvement so it's there for now, precariously perched on my rolling toolbox! Works for the moment...and an 18 inch woofer atop a Craftsmen toolbox is mancave appropriate! Will put the 15 in a sealed box and attempt to play with dual subs or see if the smaller sub is viable for this application.
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • lackboost wrote: »
    I really wish I had room for another 18. I am noticing today too, in some casual litening:

    BACK OF ROOM - HIGH AND LOW: Lots of clean bass
    LISTENING AREA - STANDING UP: Little bass
    LISTENING AREA - SITTING: No bass

    It's literally like hitting a switch...just no bass in the sitting area at all. I have a 15" Titanic. May try putting that in a sealed box and playing with it in the garage to see if I can get some bass in the listening area at all...

    If your listening position is in the middle of the room, it will always do this. That's the worst possible spot. Best way to get rid of this is four subs, one in the middle of each wall is the smoothest, or one in each corner is the loudest but slightly sloppier.

    I wouldn't give up and go down to 10's or 12's, the only possible way you'd get any decent response out of them comparatively is a real beefy driver in a large ported enclosure, and at that point you're not really saving anything in terms of footprint over a 4 cubic foot sealed 18 box.
  • lackboost wrote: »
    an 18 inch woofer atop a Craftsmen toolbox is mancave appropriate!

    rattle rattle.



    rattle.

  • Check phase adjustment on your amp if you have one. The null in your seating area could be due to phase issues.

    With one sub, the only phase issue he'd have is with blending with the mains. If he can mute the mains and there's still a null, well, it's not phase related.
  • mantis wrote: »
    2 subs are always better then one UNLESS you can have perfect placement for your listening area.
    I strongly suggest selling the 18 inch and getting 2 10's. You will be more satisfied with the end results.
    If you can't hear the 18 inch then whats the point right?

    With an 18" sealed with 4 cubic feet internal, he'd have a box that's about 20" cubed external.

    10" sealed would absolutely suck for sub work, so I'm assuming you'd be going ported. A typical ported 10 like an ultimax would be about 2.2 after port and driver displacement, a little more if you brace it. Would be about 16 cubed internal and about 17" cubed external.

    So is that what we're talking about here? A footprint that is 3" wider in both directions? Nevermind that you can make a tall and narrow footprint.

    If you just can't fit an 18" sealed anywhere at all then you're likely going to have issues with a 10" ported as well.
  • ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Output will be greater from a single 18...

    The catch is, 2 10s wouldn't come close to giving you as satisfying output as a single 18.

    Eh, depends. If he ports them, he could still probably spank a single sealed 18. Single sealed 18's kinda suck to be honest.
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    2 12s are borderline but won't dig as deep unless you do some serious work into a folded horn or the like.

    Two ported 12's designed properly will dig deeper than a single sealed 18. But yes, sealed 10's and sealed 12's just shouldn't even be on the radar.
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Ideally, 2 18s, sealed, will give you the deepest extension in a small(ish) footprint but you sacrifice some output. The nice part is though, you can throw gobs of power at a sealed sub without worrying about exceeding its mechanical limits.

    You can easily bottom out common 18's in a sealed with common amps, all it takes is a low frequency and some volume. Pair up an ultimax 18 with an iNuke 3000 and you can easily make it go clacketty clack where it's smacking that top plate.
  • I run a ported 12 in my car. love it with music, should work with HT. The 18 sounds great....just not where I sit. Tried reinforcing it with the 15 in the opposite corner...helped a little bit.

    Definitely no room for 4 subs...that's out. If I cleaned out garage a little more and moved listening are a back even 12 or15 inches it would help i think...
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • just a few questions:

    What is the floor made of?

    The Walls?

    Distance from sitting area to sub?

    From what I have read you may have more of a refection issue than anything else. An 18" sub that is being powered properly should cover any normal size garage easy. Now if you have some barn size room then you may need another, but from my experience 18" sub can cover 200-300 seat room.
    Family Room HT 7.2/i]:
    Vizio P55-E1UHD Pioneer Elite SC-LX502 Pioneer Elite BDP 85FD Pioneer Elite N-50 Panamax M5300-EX
    Living room 2ch:
    Integra ADM 2.1 Teac EQ MKII Squeezebox Touch Fluance SX Speakers Panamax M5100-EX
    Upstairs media room:
    Vizio D1 32" Pioneer Elite VSX 32 Sony PS4 Squeezebox Touch Polkaudio Rti 6's fronts Polk CSR Center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax M5300-EX
    Master bedroom:
    Vizio VF550M Pioneer Elite VSX 33 Pioneer Elite BDP 80FD Squeezebox Touch Polk audio Monitor 40 II fronts, Rears Dayton B652 Polk Audio CS10 center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax 5100
  • MetropolisLakeMetropolisLake Posts: 128
    edited January 2016
    An 18" sub that is being powered properly should cover any normal size garage easy. Now if you have some barn size room then you may need another, but from my experience 18" sub can cover 200-300 seat room.

    If you don't care about response below 30 hz, sure, grab an efficient pro driver, tune it high, and let 'er rip. If you're talking about actual home theater subs in a sealed box, such as the ultimax, HST/HT-18, etc., that's an entirely different story. I have a small room and am running four of the things, I'm just now to where I'm happy with the output at 15-20 hz. A friend of mine is running the same HT-18's as the OP, he's running four and just bought six more. Yes, ten. The idea that you can run a single sealed HT-18 and Thor himself will come down to see where all the thunder is coming from just isn't reality, it is going to be fairly weak.
  • recoveryonerecoveryone Posts: 813
    edited January 2016
    An 18" sub that is being powered properly should cover any normal size garage easy. Now if you have some barn size room then you may need another, but from my experience 18" sub can cover 200-300 seat room.

    If you don't care about response below 30 hz, sure, grab an efficient pro driver, tune it high, and let 'er rip. If you're talking about actual home theater subs in a sealed box, such as the ultimax, HST/HT-18, etc., that's an entirely different story. I have a small room and am running four of the things, I'm just now to where I'm happy with the output at 15-20 hz. A friend of mine is running the same HT-18's as the OP, he's running four and just bought six more. Yes, ten. The idea that you can run a single sealed HT-18 and Thor himself will come down to see where all the thunder is coming from just isn't reality, it is going to be fairly weak.

    I use the mindset of live music, The sub is not to be over powering but be a blend with all other drivers being used. If you want to rattle the windows be my guess.

    From Audioholics page on subwoofer use and placement:

    Home Theater Multiple Subwoofer Set-Up & Calibration Guide

    The goal of any serious home theater playback system should be even bass, plenty of dynamic range and smooth natural frequency response for the most seamless blend. This is achieved by reducing the modal peaks and nodal dips by utilizing multiple subs, and active equalization. Multiple subs ability to reduce standing waves is achieved by proper placement and setup to reduce the guess work and minimize chasing your tail to find the best settings that yield the most optimal measurable performance. This article discusses tactics and methodologies for achieving the best measurable and audible results for your entire listening area, NOT just the money seat! Our recently added YouTube video discussion elaborates on this topic.


    Family Room HT 7.2/i]:
    Vizio P55-E1UHD Pioneer Elite SC-LX502 Pioneer Elite BDP 85FD Pioneer Elite N-50 Panamax M5300-EX
    Living room 2ch:
    Integra ADM 2.1 Teac EQ MKII Squeezebox Touch Fluance SX Speakers Panamax M5100-EX
    Upstairs media room:
    Vizio D1 32" Pioneer Elite VSX 32 Sony PS4 Squeezebox Touch Polkaudio Rti 6's fronts Polk CSR Center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax M5300-EX
    Master bedroom:
    Vizio VF550M Pioneer Elite VSX 33 Pioneer Elite BDP 80FD Squeezebox Touch Polk audio Monitor 40 II fronts, Rears Dayton B652 Polk Audio CS10 center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax 5100
  • I use the mindset of live music, The sub is not to be over powering but be a blend with all other drivers being used. If you want to rattle the windows be my guess.

    Blend with music in an audiophile manner all you want but home theater is a different beast and I'm pretty use that's what we are talking about here. Your LFE channel is by definition 10 db hot even if you have everything set flat, and the frequencies involved are much lower, and you're trying to reproduce them with an enclosure that rolls off pretty steep and high. A single sealed ht type 18 simply cannot hang, and even if you try, you will have lots of distortion. Sealed 18's need eq too be flat, even at 18-20 hz one will be hurting and distorting badly even at moderate levels, and forget about infrasonic stuff. Has nothing to do with being a bass head and boosting the bass to obnoxious levels like you are trying to claim. Has everything to do with setting things up to sound how they ought to for home theater. If you knew how to do that you wouldn't be claiming that a single sealed HT-18 would easily fit the bill. Just won't happen.
  • I use the mindset of live music, The sub is not to be over powering but be a blend with all other drivers being used. If you want to rattle the windows be my guess.

    Blend with music in an audiophile manner all you want but home theater is a different beast and I'm pretty use that's what we are talking about here. Your LFE channel is by definition 10 db hot even if you have everything set flat, and the frequencies involved are much lower, and you're trying to reproduce them with an enclosure that rolls off pretty steep and high. A single sealed ht type 18 simply cannot hang, and even if you try, you will have lots of distortion. Sealed 18's need eq too be flat, even at 18-20 hz one will be hurting and distorting badly even at moderate levels, and forget about infrasonic stuff. Has nothing to do with being a bass head and boosting the bass to obnoxious levels like you are trying to claim. Has everything to do with setting things up to sound how they ought to for home theater. If you knew how to do that you wouldn't be claiming that a single sealed HT-18 would easily fit the bill. Just won't happen.

    Agreed that LFE is hotter. When I play music (MP3/CD/FLAC) the sub level needs to go up...way up to provide adequate output. I have plenty of output with the single 18 in a sealed box that seems HT-worthy to me (low freq). Its just not in the right place. As I am limited on space and cannot to have 4 x 1500 watt amps and large boxes lying around to achieve my end goal, it is imperative to make this single 18 work in the space provided. I have a mic coming and have room treatment elements lying around. Will room treatment help in "moving" the bass to the listening position? Interesting, seems like listening position bass improved with garage door open. Maybe treat garage door to minimize reflections?
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 17,165
    edited January 2016
    @lackboost

    Let me throw an alternative your way.... Buttkickers....

    I have a 15" D2 Stereo Integrity driver in a martycube box (4 cubic feet tuned to 21hz) and its get LOUD and sounds great...

    But I have a HUGE ROOM thats open and I know what I really need is more subs that are sealed if I really want of the infrasonic stuff (which I do). For now the current sub has required me to add speaker gasket to all my picture frames in the area, as well as the kitchen cabinets and add silicone to the inserts in those cabinets so they dont rattle.

    Instead of more subs for now I bought a buttkicker for my setup. Initially I installed it under the couch but my wife hated it so it had to go from there. So now it sits under my chair and I tell you it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE. The ONLY thing I have to work through is potentially getting a MiniDSP as if it gets super low bass it starts to ping a bit, so I'm thinking I need a crossover somewhere in like the 10hz range or something. Its a known issue due to the fact the amp is flat to 3-5hz according to the manufacture.

    But its giving me the feeling of infrasonic without requiring another big box.

    I'm still going to try for dual sealed 18" ultimax's in 4 cubic foot boxes, but for now I'm happy.

    And if I wanted my amp is capable of driving up to 4 buttkickers so I could add more of them without having to pay for another amp.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • The reflection point was my first take, as you describe issues with hearing it at different levels, but just not while sitting.

    So back to my original questions:

    What type of floor in the garage (Carpet, Concrete....)

    What are the walls made up of (Finish sheet rock, Paneling......)

    Family Room HT 7.2/i]:
    Vizio P55-E1UHD Pioneer Elite SC-LX502 Pioneer Elite BDP 85FD Pioneer Elite N-50 Panamax M5300-EX
    Living room 2ch:
    Integra ADM 2.1 Teac EQ MKII Squeezebox Touch Fluance SX Speakers Panamax M5100-EX
    Upstairs media room:
    Vizio D1 32" Pioneer Elite VSX 32 Sony PS4 Squeezebox Touch Polkaudio Rti 6's fronts Polk CSR Center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax M5300-EX
    Master bedroom:
    Vizio VF550M Pioneer Elite VSX 33 Pioneer Elite BDP 80FD Squeezebox Touch Polk audio Monitor 40 II fronts, Rears Dayton B652 Polk Audio CS10 center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax 5100
  • seabeerob213seabeerob213 Posts: 1,843
    1 big and add a matching one later
    HT/2channel:
    AVR: Yamaha RX-V 765
    Fronts: Polk RTiA3
    sub: Polk PSW110(will add 2x PSW 505)
    Center: CS13
    surrounds:Polk RTi4( also have some def tech pro Mon. 800s, may end up her or expanding this to 7 channel.)
    TV: samsung 40
    The real 2 Channel(work in progress):
    Pre:HK 3490
    Amp:Parasound 1200 MK II
    Sub:RBH 1010-SEP
    Speakers: Monitor 5A peerless
    Headphones:
    Source: FIIO X3 CD rips WMA lossless
    Amp: FIIO E12, Nuforce icon udcac-2 W/pangea cable
    Cans: Audio-Technica ATH-M50, Velodyne V-True, Grado SR225i
    most of my comments are passing on of info, im a noob, im just trying to help how i can, if im wrong or out of place to comment, dont hesitate to let me know :)

    "WITH WILLING HEARTS AND SKILLFUL HANDS,
    THE DIFFICULT WE DO AT ONCE,
    THE IMPOSSIBLE TAKES A BIT LONGER
    WITH COMPASSION FOR OTHERS
    WE BUILD - WE FIGHT FOR PEACE WITH FREEDOM"
    Seabee Memorial, Arlington, VA
  • The reflection point was my first take, as you describe issues with hearing it at different levels, but just not while sitting.

    So back to my original questions:

    What type of floor in the garage (Carpet, Concrete....)

    What are the walls made up of (Finish sheet rock, Paneling......)

    Sorry if I missed it the first time:

    Concrete floor. Large area rug in listening area (8 x12' in a 17x22 room)

    Wall are insulated (R15) and finished drywall. Lots of stuff along the walls and behind listening area (fridge, shelving unit, toolbox, rolling island, dresser, desk, bicycles, etc)

    I have bass traps, and wall treatments. Garage is not completely cleaned out so not putting anything up until it's final.
    5.1: Marantz AV7701, Oppo BDP-103, Sony UBP-X800, Vizio M70-C3, XPA-3, XPA-2, BP7002, CLR2500, RTi4

    Office: Emotiva UMC-1, Adcom GFA-6000, RTi4, PSW10

    Backroom: 2309ci, LS90, PSB Image B4, CS350-LS, Adcom GFA-555, JL 12w6AE

    Car: Audison bitone, JL Audio HD600/4 + 750/1, Vifa XT25, Seas ER18, TC Sounds Epic 12

    Idle: LSi9, LSiC, 2 x UPA-1
  • Polkie2009Polkie2009 Posts: 3,836
    This is a challenging room, you might end up having to chase down all kinds of rattles.
  • The walls sound fine, you may need to put carpet with sound damping padding under the sub area 5'x4' this will help the sound of the sub go forward and not all over before getting to the listening area.

    It would be better if the sub was sharing the listening area with the rug
    Family Room HT 7.2/i]:
    Vizio P55-E1UHD Pioneer Elite SC-LX502 Pioneer Elite BDP 85FD Pioneer Elite N-50 Panamax M5300-EX
    Living room 2ch:
    Integra ADM 2.1 Teac EQ MKII Squeezebox Touch Fluance SX Speakers Panamax M5100-EX
    Upstairs media room:
    Vizio D1 32" Pioneer Elite VSX 32 Sony PS4 Squeezebox Touch Polkaudio Rti 6's fronts Polk CSR Center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax M5300-EX
    Master bedroom:
    Vizio VF550M Pioneer Elite VSX 33 Pioneer Elite BDP 80FD Squeezebox Touch Polk audio Monitor 40 II fronts, Rears Dayton B652 Polk Audio CS10 center Polkaudio PSW 10 sub Panamax 5100
  • lackboost wrote: »
    Agreed that LFE is hotter. When I play music (MP3/CD/FLAC) the sub level needs to go up...way up to provide adequate output. I have plenty of output with the single 18 in a sealed box that seems HT-worthy to me (low freq). Its just not in the right place. As I am limited on space and cannot to have 4 x 1500 watt amps and large boxes lying around to achieve my end goal, it is imperative to make this single 18 work in the space provided. I have a mic coming and have room treatment elements lying around. Will room treatment help in "moving" the bass to the listening position? Interesting, seems like listening position bass improved with garage door open. Maybe treat garage door to minimize reflections?

    No, not at all, especially not with putting up panels to treat reflections. Large bass traps may help smooth the peaks a small amount but it won't fix what you are describing. Everybody talking about the reflections isn't reality because the bass frequency wavelengths from the subs is so long they're just going to rip right through any panels you put up.

    Ideas that may help:

    1. Change to a ported box. A single sealed 18 will always suck. Sorry but it just will. F3 on a sealed 18 is like 31 hz or something and it just keeps falling below that. F10 is like 18-20 hz. That's just awful. Switch to a ported box and bump up some of that low end. You should be able to get like 6 db more near the tuning frequency, which would be the equivalent of doubling your current setup.

    2. Go with multiple subs, which is the best way to fix it. It's the only real way to smooth out all the peaks and nulls, especially in the middle of the room.

    3. Move your seats to out from the middle of the room. Everybody has nulls there, especially with subs in one location. It is literally the worst possible place to sit. Typically near the opposite wall is loudest.

    4. Draw out a diagram so everybody knows what you're talking about.
  • ZLTFULZLTFUL Posts: 5,509
    Eh, depends. If he ports them, he could still probably spank a single sealed 18. Single sealed 18's kinda suck to be honest.

    Uh...ok...that's why sealed 18s are the go to for nearfields virtually every high output theater showing up on AVS...
    Ported 10s will give you some output but nowhere near the power handling capability and by the time you reduce power and eq out the frequencies that will eat those 10s, you are back at square one.
    Two ported 12's designed properly will dig deeper than a single sealed 18. But yes, sealed 10's and sealed 12's just shouldn't even be on the radar.

    I think you are confused here...they will have higher output but even properly tuned, a UM18 will still dig far deeper than a pair of "off the shelf" ported 12 enclosures. Until you get into exotic long tuned port lengths, the depth those 12s can dig won't go nearly as low as a sealed 18. I agree that a properly ported pair of 12s can far exceed the *output* of a single 18 but they won't dig as deep.
    You can easily bottom out common 18's in a sealed with common amps, all it takes is a low frequency and some volume. Pair up an ultimax 18 with an iNuke 3000 and you can easily make it go clacketty clack where it's smacking that top plate.

    Far FAR less likely than destroying a sub in a ported enclosure without knowing how to eq out sub destroying frequencies or improperly configuring the enclosure.
    The consensus being that a sealed enclosure significantly reduces the mechanical failure points of a sub. Yeah...throw a **** ton of distorted power into a sealed sub and you can damage it. But I have seen ported subs get gobbled up with far less than their rated power FAR more often than sealed subs fail.


    I am not disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing but I've known guys like Steve Meade for years and their consensus is, if you want loud without having to use a ton of power, go ported. If you want accurate and to dig deeper with the ability to increase output simply by adding power and damning the eq, go sealed.

    Me, I go with a mixture of the two...4 sealed 18s and 2 ported 12s. But then they also serve different purposes.

    Anyway, it's the argumentative attitude that keeps me from posting in this place. People who think that their way is the only way and have to try and shoot down anyone who doesn't agree with them.
    The sheer amount of factors that we simply don't know will always prevent any of us from being able to answer the OPs question completely...

    Room size and volume, furniture in the room, stick on slab or basement construction, wood or concrete floor, walls insulated or not, open to or closed off from other rooms, basement below or rooms above...the list goes on and on and nobody knows how a room is going to react to *ANY* kind of sub until it is in there and you can take measurements.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
  • MetropolisLakeMetropolisLake Posts: 128
    edited February 2016
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Uh...ok...that's why sealed 18s are the go to for nearfields virtually every high output theater showing up on AVS...

    Nobody's rocking a single sealed 18 for their entire system in a decent sized room like the OP's garage, calling it good since the performance is so good, and being justified in that decision. Not going to happen. It's just not. That is literally what we are talking about here.

    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    I think you are confused here...they will have higher output but even properly tuned, a UM18 will still dig far deeper than a pair of "off the shelf" ported 12 enclosures. Until you get into exotic long tuned port lengths, the depth those 12s can dig won't go nearly as low as a sealed 18. I agree that a properly ported pair of 12s can far exceed the *output* of a single 18 but they won't dig as deep.

    Sorry but I'm not. Even among factory offerings, take some quality 12's and you can dig lower than a single sealed 18. Look at the Klipsch THX 12's. Play a pair of those at 20 hz and tell me they won't spank a typical sealed 18 doing the same. A pair of those can supposedly play 122 db at 20 hz.

    Now, head over to data-bass.com where they measure several 18's in a sealed box. They got 105 db out of an ultimax. They got 108 db out of an HST. That's because the things started rolling off above 30 hz.

    Let's go down a little lower. At 15 hz the THX claims to be at 112 db. Even on the HST, the max burst is about 100 db. Even if the claimed output is way off, that's still 12 db. That's huge.

    The only way to get satisfactory deep bass with sealed subs, even 18's, is with multiples. Single sealed 18's just suck. If they didn't, you and I and most everybody else wouldn't be running four or more of the things. A sealed ultimax for example in a typical 4 cubic foot box has an F10 of 18 hz. That's 10 db down at that point. That's huge. Takes extra woofers and a lot of power to make up for that.

    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    I am not disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing but I've known guys like Steve Meade for years and their consensus is, if you want loud without having to use a ton of power, go ported. If you want accurate and to dig deeper with the ability to increase output simply by adding power and damning the eq, go sealed.

    You seem to be forgetting that we are debating a single 18 here. One. Uno. A setup whose F10 is right where things get the most fun.

    And digging deeper all depends on how low and loud we're talking. For example, if you take two subs, one is sealed, one is ported, and the sealed one is 10 db down at 20 hz while flopping around quite a bit and producing a bunch of distortion, and the ported one is still flat while sounding good due to little cone movement comparatively since we are at its tuning frequency... which one would you say digs deeper? Ported, no?

    Now take the same setup and cut the frequency in half to 10 hz. At this point the ported box is unloaded. There is no backpressure from the port, so the driver flops around violently, and the front wave is being canceled out by what comes out of the port, so about all you hear is suspension noise and port huffing. Yet, the sealed is still chugging. Nevermind that it would be lucky to crank out 90 db without destroying itself due to xMech limitations at this point and distortion is off the charts, but hey, at least it's measurable right?. So which would you say digs deeper? The sealed, no?

    The second situation is negated by the fact that you only have one sealed 18 which would sound horrendous when you try to do this. It would simply sound better if you ported the thing. You are shooting yourself in the foot by hoping for virtually nonexistent 10 hz performance while sacrificing output from 17-25 hz. Which makes absolutely zero sense.

    Meaning, yes, when comparing apples to apples, sealed can produce lower frequencies due to a more shallow rolloff below the ported box's tuning frequency, but you need multiple subs to pull it off, otherwise you would be better off going with a ported sub that performs better at its tuning frequency and a little above, and in the case of 12's, can at least cover the frequencies that you can actually hear in a satisfactory manner, which a typical single sealed 18 simply cannot do, because its rolloff starts way higher than the ported one. Plus, you're still better off with two subs due to room mode issues.

    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Me, I go with a mixture of the two...4 sealed 18s and 2 ported 12s. But then they also serve different purposes.

    I'm doing the same thing, four sealed ultimax's as well as acoustic elegance 12's for midbass. I'm pretty sure I'm familiar with what sealed 18's can and cannot do. I'm just now happy with the output. If I could only run one of them I would not be happy whatsoever, I'd at least port the thing. Running only one of these in a larger room like a garage isn't exactly optimal for home theater to say the least.
    Post edited by MetropolisLake on
  • ZLTFULZLTFUL Posts: 5,509
    Running only one of these in a larger room like a garage isn't exactly optimal for home theater to say the least.

    Something we can agree on 1000%.

    But back to the OPs original statement of placement being limited. Even with a pair of ported 12s, if he can't co-locate them in ideal positions, all of the discussion is moot as he will never get optimal output even from a pair.



    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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