Sub or no Sub with SDA 2.3s
Comments
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Loud & Clear wrote: »Maybe we all need high frequency modules as well. Super Tweeters. Not that our speakers' tweeters aren't doing a good job. But to achieve perfection by stabilizing and correcting high frequency response within our rooms, surely a super tweeter must be employed. And midrange augmentation by separate midrange modules with response correction software, which adjusts listening position midrange balance on the fly. You can't even tell that it's happening.
Peaks and nulls in the high regions are less critical to treat as the frequency resolution of our ears is much larger. For example, we cannot hear the difference between 15000hz and 15001hz. However in the bass region we can easily distinguish 41 from 43hz which is a half step, E and F respectively. So if we have a null or peak, the accentuation of a frequency or note is much more audible and distinguishable than a peak or null at high frequencies.
A rising or falling response over a broad range at high frequencies is what is noticeable. So our tweeters don't need much help as long as they can create a reasonable response. What smears our listening is reflections in the time domain. Waves bouncing off the walls and coming back milliseconds after causes time smearing of the imaging. This also happens in the bass region where bass waves bounce around our room and not uniformly decaying. This is often described as one note bass, where a note sustains in the room and continuously plays drowning out other frequencies.
Because our frequency resolution at lower frequencies is much better and the energy of frequencies in this region is much greater, room modes, cancellations, peaks and nulls are much more critical to correct for and would subjectively be interpreted as tight, responsive, fast bass. After all, that bass you hear is dominated by the listening room.
As for super tweeters, I unfortunately cannot hear beyond 18khz, so it'll be a waste on my ears.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I believe the point in all of this is that if your room can do bass well, then you won't need a subwoofer or room treatments. But the fact of the matter is that rooms have modes and cause standing waves/peaks/nulls, and bass reproduction in MOST rooms is very challenging. A subwoofer may help the situation with DSP and calibration.2Ch Tube Audio Convert
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LOL.....nice to see nothing has changed, that you're still as clueless as they come.
You're at least half right
And likewise! I would have been almost disappointed were you not banging the silly categorical "SRS's don't need subs" drum anymore. design is where science and art break even. -
Peaks and nulls in the high regions are less critical to treat as the frequency resolution of our ears is much larger. For example, we cannot hear the difference between 15000hz and 15001hz. However in the bass region we can easily distinguish 41 from 43hz which is a half step, E and F respectively. So if we have a null or peak, the accentuation of a frequency or note is much more audible and distinguishable than a peak or null at high frequencies.
A rising or falling response over a broad range at high frequencies is what is noticeable. So our tweeters don't need much help as long as they can create a reasonable response. What smears our listening is reflections in the time domain. Waves bouncing off the walls and coming back milliseconds after causes time smearing of the imaging. This also happens in the bass region where bass waves bounce around our room and not uniformly decaying. This is often described as one note bass, where a note sustains in the room and continuously plays drowning out other frequencies.
Because our frequency resolution at lower frequencies is much better and the energy of frequencies in this region is much greater, room modes, cancellations, peaks and nulls are much more critical to correct for and would subjectively be interpreted as tight, responsive, fast bass. After all, that bass you hear is dominated by the listening room.
As for super tweeters, I unfortunately cannot hear beyond 18khz, so it'll be a waste on my ears.
Additionally, many speakers employ super tweeter or have an extended frequency range far above human hearing for the theory that it impacts tonal quality. Afterall we can perceive their harmonics, if not their natural frequency.design is where science and art break even. -
txcoastal1 wrote: »Here's an FYI, while attending RMAF this last year. Wilson's Alexandria XLF which on there own can extend below 20hz. They added a pair of Thor's Hammer sub's all in all it was a great presentation. You throw up a wide screen and projector and you would never have to buy another ticket to a live concert/show again....it was that good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LohZKxklzIA
Imagine that, Wilson Audio employing monster subs to compliment their Alexandria XLF speakers. Ah shucks...what do they know about sound reproduction. Or maybe they just might know something that a lot of folks haven't figured out yet."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »Imagine that, Wilson Audio employing monster subs to compliment their Alexandria XLF speakers. Ah shucks...what do they know about sound reproduction. Or maybe they just might know something that a lot of folks haven't figured out yet.
Wilson is a recording engineer, go to the Wilson site and watch his videos, he is all about reproduction and accuracy. The Thors lie in the background only to produce whats needed not to accentuate.2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I'm not sure how much sense this makes...txcoastal1 wrote: »Wilson is a recording engineer, go to the Wilson site and watch his videos, he is all about reproduction and accuracy. The Thors lie in the background only to produce whats needed not to accentuate.
Besides, Wilson is an excellent marketing company and an ok speaker company. His speakers are beautiful, match many decors(many colors available), and don't look like your average box. Until recently, most of his speakers sound pretty harsh. The beaming upper mids handing over to a small inverted dome creates huge peaks and nulls off axis. So unless your room is fully treated or almost dead sounding, they may hurt your ears. Fortunately, the new soft dome is light years ahead of the old Focal tweeter and allows them the ability to design a much more competent speaker."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
You're at least half right And likewise! I would have been almost disappointed were you not banging the silly categorical "SRS's don't need subs" drum anymore.
You have never heard my speakers on my gear and in my room, so how could you possibly know what they sound like? :rolleyes:
You continue to prove how clueless you are every time you post.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You have never heard my speakers on my gear and in my room, so how could you possibly know what they sound like? :rolleyes:
You continue to prove how clueless you are every time you post.
First of all, I never even remotely said that I know what they sound like. However, I can intuit what they don't sound like. And my opinion is an educated assumption based on the aggregate of my intensive experience with SRS's, diverse high-end audio equipment, my tastes, your comments, and your general attitude. The fact that you're taking it so personally only reinforces my belief that I am right.
How does me making an educated observation based on subjectivity equate to me being clueless? I don't need to hear your specific speakers on your gear in your room to know that I would prefer them with subwoofers. I'm not saying they suck, I'm not questioning your manhood, I'm simply saying that with your gear and equipment and your room (or nearly ANY speaker, Any gear, ANY room) that I would want two or more subwoofers. I know you love them, great! I bet they sound marvelous. I stand in awe of your manhood. I'm simply stating that I would prefer something different. And I would submit that you presuming to tell me what I would or would not like swings the "clueless" finger-pointing 180 degrees.
Take a few deep breaths, my friend. This is just a hobby, after all.design is where science and art break even. -
Most Ultra High End speaker manufacturers build subwoofers for their statement systems. There have been several threads where I've outlined examples.design is where science and art break even.
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If I had mains that would dig to 35hz (or lower) respectably, I wouldn't bother with a sub. My Harbeth's -3dB point is 46Hz, and while I could live without the sub, I like the depth it provides to my monitors.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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Deep bass can add to the spatial presentation."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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^ yes
And it's one of those effects that people do not realize until they experience it. My 2-channel system is flat within 2db from 20-22kHz, yet the addition of external support within the 15-25Hz range has been the perceptively largest improvement, especially in the areas of spatial presence, dynamics, and near-full frequency resolution.design is where science and art break even. -
I'm a bit late to the party here. Everyone's ears are different, everyone's gear is different, everyone's rooms are different, and everyone's tastes are different. So I don't think there's any one right or wrong answer here. I'm a big believer that this is a hobby intended to elicit happiness, so do what makes you happy, it's your money.
For me, I couldn't imagine adding a sub to my 2-channel setup. I've got the smallest of the SDA's, the CRS+'s which have been modded to 4.1TL spec. I've got them properly placed, several feet off the side walls and appropriately set back from the rear walls. I've got a relatively small room, but I treated the heck out of it with GIK corner traps and acoustic panels. The room was an echo chamber before the treatments, but treating the room completely solved the problem. The bass is just so satisfying to me. Deep, tight, focused, with tons of punch. I am very content right where I am, and wouldn't be at all tempted to add a sub and change what the combination of the passive radiators and my Krell amp are already doing so well.
But that's just me - my ears, my gear, my room, my tastes. YMMV.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
The funny thing is...thee are some that think that the larger SDA's along with some other Polk floorstanding speakers have too much bass. YES, taste are all over the place. Not much to debate...2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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Five little words with a period.....
You get what you accept.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
The funny thing is...thee are some that think that the larger SDA's along with some other Polk floorstanding speakers have too much bass. YES, taste are all over the place. Not much to debate...
That's generally caused by bad interaction with the room & most likely the speakers are placed in a position which provides the best sound for midrange & highs but the worst location for accurate bass notes. Hence it sounds like over boomy & sloppy."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Deep bass can add to the spatial presentation.
Absolutely true. You wouldn't think bass notes would do that, but they certainly do deepen your soundstage.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
No, I was not talking about the room......I guess not all are Polk lovers. I will just leave it at that.pearsall001 wrote: »That's generally caused by bad interaction with the room & most likely the speakers are placed in a position which provides the best sound for midrange & highs but the worst location for accurate bass notes. Hence it sounds like over boomy & sloppy.
Put it this way, we all know of some that like a rolled off and dry low end.2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2 -
no, i was not talking about the room......i guess not all are polk lovers. I will just leave it at that.
Put it this way, we all know of some that like a rolled off and dry low end.
lol!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Didn't matter how I felt about the Polk SDA 2's, SRS 2's, SDA 1C's, CRS +, Carver Amazings, hybrid ESL's, or the latest Salk SoundScapes in my room. Low frequency bass wise they all behaved the same way in my large space; poorly without help. My space is L shaped. We call the living room 15' x 16' cause that is where the hardwood ends. The foyer and main level adds another 25' x 20'. 14' ceilings throughout the main level.
Some of you are really dense when it comes to understanding a room interaction with speakers.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
SCompRacer wrote: »Didn't matter how I felt about the Polk SDA 2's, SRS 2's, SDA 1C's, CRS +, Carver Amazings, hybrid ESL's, or the latest Salk SoundScapes in my room. Low frequency bass wise they all behaved the same way in my large space; poorly without help. My space is L shaped. We call the living room 15' x 16' cause that is where the hardwood ends. The foyer and main level adds another 25' x 20'. 14' ceilings throughout the main level.
Some of you are really dense when it comes to understanding a room interaction with speakers.
Some folks will never get it & understand that the room is the most misunderstood, underestimated, yet thee most important component in one's system. Bass notes are the hardest to get right in any room...enter twin subs & you're well on your way to an experience like you've never heard before with your single pair of speakers. Now please don't get me wrong here, I'm sure many feel that they have fantastic sound as is & that's all they will ever need. I can't find fault with that at all. In fact I was of the same mind set until I heard what twin subs can do when added to the mix. But like everything audio related it all boils down to what sounds good to you & that's all that matters."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I tried really hard to add a subwoofer to my setup. Whatever I got in additional low frequency support was offset by loss of speed, coherence, and cleanliness. There's something so pure about the way my speakers sound by themselves. Now maybe there's a subwoofer out there that could work. Maybe there's a subwoofer and a technique to apply that could bring something positive to the table without sacrificing anything. But until such time I find myself really rather pleased with what I have.
Two Channel Setup:
Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
DAC: Arcam irDac
Source: iMac
Remote Control: iPad Mini
3.2 Home Theater Setup:
Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
Center: Klipsch RP-160M
Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
TV Source: DirecTV Genie -
I still don't need no stinkin' sub.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Loud & Clear wrote: »I tried really hard to add a subwoofer to my setup. Whatever I got in additional low frequency support was offset by loss of speed, coherence, and cleanliness. There's something so pure about the way my speakers sound by themselves. Now maybe there's a subwoofer out there that could work. Maybe there's a subwoofer and a technique to apply that could bring something positive to the table without sacrificing anything. But until such time I find myself really rather pleased with what I have.
Might I ask what sub you tried. That can make or break your efforts. And in all actuality you need twin subs to do it up right,I still don't need no stinkin' sub.
That'll be inscribed on your headstone! LOL!!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Loud & Clear wrote: »I tried really hard to add a subwoofer to my setup. Whatever I got in additional low frequency support was offset by loss of speed, coherence, and cleanliness. There's something so pure about the way my speakers sound by themselves. Now maybe there's a subwoofer out there that could work. Maybe there's a subwoofer and a technique to apply that could bring something positive to the table without sacrificing anything. But until such time I find myself really rather pleased with what I have.
I can understand that. I also wouldn't sacrifice quality for quantity. Happy with the pair of NHT B12-d subs. They have 0-270 degrees phase control and -3dB, 0, +3dB boundary control to help them fit properly. You just can't plop a pair of subs down and run either. Like the speakers, it took some experimenting with sub placement to get the best response.
I was close to getting some slightly larger Rythmik subs. The name isn't thrown around as much, but they are impressive.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.htmlSalk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Loud & Clear wrote: »I tried really hard to add a subwoofer to my setup. Whatever I got in additional low frequency support was offset by loss of speed, coherence, and cleanliness. There's something so pure about the way my speakers sound by themselves. Now maybe there's a subwoofer out there that could work. Maybe there's a subwoofer and a technique to apply that could bring something positive to the table without sacrificing anything. But until such time I find myself really rather pleased with what I have.
It really all depends on how the speakers/subs interact with the room. A sub on its own may or may things better, but properly integrating bass into your room using a sub is a different matter. In the end, the room will make bass suffer even with 1 or 2 subs and this is where EQ comes in. Not being able to see visually what you're doing is another detriment and this is where measurements come in. Moving a sub inch by inch to get optimal placement is way too time consuming and flawed for regular A/B comparisons (listening to a track over and over), and trust me with bass, inches matter. As I have said earlier, it's definitely not for the light hearted and it takes a lot of effort to do it right. But when you have it right, like all of us pitching subs, you wouldn't think twice about not having them again.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
2Ch Tube Audio Convert
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pearsall001 wrote: »Some folks will never get it & understand that the room is the most misunderstood, underestimated, yet thee most important component in one's system. Bass notes are the hardest to get right in any room...enter twin subs & you're well on your way to an experience like you've never heard before with your single pair of speakers. Now please don't get me wrong here, I'm sure many feel that they have fantastic sound as is & that's all they will ever need. I can't find fault with that at all. In fact I was of the same mind set until I heard what twin subs can do when added to the mix. But like everything audio related it all boils down to what sounds good to you & that's all that matters.
Twin subs definitely help iron out in-room response when one sub won't do. But don't underestimate one sub properly located with EQ can work wonders as well to help in room response.
As Pearsall had said, you may have the best speaker or sub to produce the bass frequencies, if you room disagrees, it will go all to shambles and you'll be left with one-note, slow and sluggish bass. A sub with EQ can help the situation but eventually it boils down the room!2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
SCompRacer wrote: »Some of you are really dense when it comes to understanding a room interaction with speakers.
Maybe you guys are being a bit hard? I'm sure those that would call themselves audiophiles have sang in the shower , understand whats going with their voice?pearsall001 wrote: »Some folks will never get it & understand that the room is the most misunderstood, underestimated, yet thee most important component in one's system. Bass notes are the hardest to get right in any room....
IMO, rather the room boosts or cancels bass, some just don't like as much bass as others. Then there are the bass freaks with their multiple 18" infinite baffle subs trying to reach 120 db at 5 HZ!
As far as adjusting the sub...it almost always has to be tuned and moved around. I found that even playing around with a cheap boomy computer 2.1 speaker set I could improve the bass response....facing the grill covered woofer down to the floor worked wonders! I bet 99 percent out there would have never done that?2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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