Sub or no Sub with SDA 2.3s

EvilMuffin

Just like the title says, I am running SDA 2.3s, how nice of a stand alone sub would I need to hear improvement?

pitdogg2

you shouldn't need any sub for those. what amp you running them with?

Toolfan66

pitdogg2 wrote: »

you shouldn't need any sub for those. What amp you running them with?

this^^^^^

zane77

Get a quality amp to power those and a sub will never enter your mind.

EvilMuffin

Right now a Carver M4.0. But I started posting on here because I found a set of factory sealed Audio Research gear. M100 mono blocks and an sp-11 preamp. Been on trouble shooting figuring out how to connect them to my SDAs, etc. I am eager to get them going.

pitdogg2

EvilMuffin wrote: »

Right now a Carver M4.0. But I started posting on here because I found a set of factory sealed Audio Research gear. M100 mono blocks and an sp-11 preamp. Been on trouble shooting figuring out how to connect them to my SDAs, etc. I am eager to get them going.

WOW i run the TFM45 (same as 4.0) and never feel I'm missing any bass...room issue's? Unless you're into craprap most music has little down below what those are capable of...

F1nut

If you are not getting copious amounts of bass from those speakers, you've got problems somewhere. Lack of power, air leak, crossover needs upgrading, room problems, set up wrong, need spikes, etc.

EvilMuffin

I know I need spikes, however I did not think I was not getting enough bass, was just wondering if a sub would show any improvement. I guess I have my answer judging by the out pour of opinions that the SDAs make more than enough.

pitdogg2

push in on the passive radiator and hold watch you upper drivers.. do they go right back down or do they stay out for say 5 seconds or more? If they do not hold out for a bit you have an air leak therefore you will have much less bass...they need to be sealed as that is the design.

Loud & Clear

Yeah, I'm thinking the seal has been compromised. Placement could also be an issue. I had prodigious amounts of bass from those.

pearsall001

EvilMuffin wrote: »

Just like the title says, I am running SDA 2.3s, how nice of a stand alone sub would I need to hear improvement?

Yes indeed there would be a marked improvement. A speaker trying to be a jack of all trades falls short compared to when mated with a quality sub. Or better yet a matching twins!!! Yohzaaaa!!! It's not all about the bottom end either.

Indyaudio2

Similar to my 1.2TLs and could not imagine the remote need for a subwoofer. As noted, a good quality power amp is key. With my Sunfire 300~2 on the bottom and bi wired to McIntosh MC30 tube monos on top - simply amazing sound. Bass to knock crown molding off the wall.

F1nut

So, what are you selling?

mccarty250

That was probably some of the most brutal bass I've ever heard out of a speaker w/o a sub. Were you powering those beasts with the sunfire during our sessions?

drumminman

I've done all the mods to my 2.3TL's (SEE SIG.) and I use a sub. There - I said it :cheesygrin:

All kidding aside, my room placement is not ideal and I don't really have other options. Though the speakers produce decent bass on most recordings, I like to hear the lowest notes. I have my sub set up on the same plane as the speakers, just inside the right one. Integration is seamless and the sub can't be located. I don't have a lot of volume dialed up on it, it's mostly just for presence but it does flesh out the low notes.

Front end includes a tweaked high current Odyssey Stratos Stereo amp, so power is not an issue.

WLDock

While I never heard the 2.3 and its been ages since I heard the SDA's the one thing I remember about vintage Polk is the bass. Having said that I can see why someone like drumminman might use a sub. Having played drums for ages myself, I'm sure the 2.3 really fill the room similar to "live" drums however at volume, I would guess a dedicated 15" or larger sub would really help with impact....and the drummer, bass player, etc types really like impact!

Once you've felt the up close kick of 10"-12" midbasses and 18" subs in a live PA rig, there is nothing like it. However, I'm sure the 2.3's are pretty impressive in the home setting. I really want to listen to the larger SDA's. I really don't remember which ones I listened to at the dealer ages ago???

pearsall001

drumminman wrote: »

I've done all the mods to my 2.3TL's (SEE SIG.) and I use a sub. There - I said it :cheesygrin:

All kidding aside, my room placement is not ideal and I don't really have other options. Though the speakers produce decent bass on most recordings, I like to hear the lowest notes. I have my sub set up on the same plane as the speakers, just inside the right one. Integration is seamless and the sub can't be located. I don't have a lot of volume dialed up on it, it's mostly just for presence but it does flesh out the low notes.

Front end includes a tweaked high current Odyssey Stratos Stereo amp, so power is not an issue.

That goes for probably 99.9% of rooms. The best placement for your speakers is generally the worst place for proper bass reproduction. I'm sure they still sound fine but there will be a remarkable difference once mated with a quality sub. Let the speakers do what they do best& let the sub do what it does best. A perfect musical marriage.

Indyaudio2

mccarty250 wrote: »

That was probably some of the most brutal bass I've ever heard out of a speaker w/o a sub. Were you powering those beasts with the sunfire during our sessions?

Yep, a single Sunfire 300~2 biwired to the 1.2TLs

SCompRacer

I committed two channel blasphemy; I added two subs to my two channel. I have speakers that go 20Hz to 20KHz +- 1.5dB, but won't do that low bass justice in my large room. Peaks and nulls.....in other words you can add subs and make the problem worse. Sometimes even after the best setup is found, you need room help.

From the GIK site....

http://www.gikacoustics.com/what-are-room-modes/

"Room modes can cause both peaks and nulls (dips) in frequency response. When two or more waves meet and are in phase with each other at a specific frequency, you will have a peak in response. When they meet and are out of phase with each other, they cancel and you end up with a dip or null in response.

Dealing with modes is accomplished by absorbing one of the boundaries to minimize the reflections off of it so there is nothing to combine or cancel. While corners are not a complete solution, they do offer the advantage of being at the end of 2 or even 3 of the room dimensions so there is a lot of benefit in that area. Sometimes there are modal issues which require treatment of the rear wall or even the ceiling over your head that treating corners would not solve."

SCompRacer

One of my fav things is to find the bass. Walk around, get down, crawl around. Step out of the room, it could be in the hall or another room. I was a Martin Logan owners place once for a speaker shoot out. He had this room treated floor to ceiling with Owens Corning 703. No bass trapping though. Bass was lacking in the room with a pair of speakers known to give great bass, but go into the hall or adjacent room, and there it was, the great bass! Funny how that stuff works.

Conradicles

"Sub or no Sub with SDA 2.3s"

How about both depending on the room and gear.

aboroth00

SCompRacer wrote: »

I committed two channel blasphemy; I added two subs to my two channel. I have speakers that go 20Hz to 20KHz +- 1.5dB, but won't do that low bass justice in my large room. Peaks and nulls.....in other words you can add subs and make the problem worse. Sometimes even after the best setup is found, you need room help.

From the GIK site....

http://www.gikacoustics.com/what-are-room-modes/

"Room modes can cause both peaks and nulls (dips) in frequency response. When two or more waves meet and are in phase with each other at a specific frequency, you will have a peak in response. When they meet and are out of phase with each other, they cancel and you end up with a dip or null in response.

Dealing with modes is accomplished by absorbing one of the boundaries to minimize the reflections off of it so there is nothing to combine or cancel. While corners are not a complete solution, they do offer the advantage of being at the end of 2 or even 3 of the room dimensions so there is a lot of benefit in that area. Sometimes there are modal issues which require treatment of the rear wall or even the ceiling over your head that treating corners would not solve."

This .

I would recommend for pretty much all rooms and applications, the addition of properly calibrated and located subs is going to be better. Speakers usually aren't ideally located to produce the lowest of the lows and as Rich mentioned, they can cause nulls and peaks. Room treatments are the ideal way to go but to solve nulls and peaks is to treat the real problem, the room, but this requires a lot of treatments to reach the the lowest frequencies. However, a good sub with EQ can be a very novel solution as well.

Moving into the future, even I got floorstanders to go to 20hz which I have had in my room before, I would still use a pair of subs. Going with subs are not for the lighthearted and it takes much more tweaking and attention to detail than just plopping down a pair of speakers and hooking everything up. Careful selection of the crossover point comes into play, measuring the response with computer software, adjusting the gain for perfect integration, adjusting phase, EQing away peaks and getting a linear response are critical to getting the most of the sub. Otherwise you might be like many others complain that you can't get that sub to sound right.

pearsall001

aboroth00 wrote: »

This .

I would recommend for pretty much all rooms and applications, the addition of properly calibrated and located subs is going to be better. Speakers usually aren't ideally located to produce the lowest of the lows and as Rich mentioned, they can cause nulls and peaks. Room treatments are the ideal way to go but to solve nulls and peaks is to treat the real problem, the room, but this requires a lot of treatments to reach the the lowest frequencies. However, a good sub with EQ can be a very novel solution as well.

Moving into the future, even I got floorstanders to go to 20hz which I have had in my room before, I would still use a pair of subs. Going with subs are not for the lighthearted and it takes much more tweaking and attention to detail than just plopping down a pair of speakers and hooking everything up. Careful selection of the crossover point comes into play, measuring the response with computer software, adjusting the gain for perfect integration, adjusting phase, EQing away peaks and getting a linear response are critical to getting the most of the sub. Otherwise you might be like many others complain that you can't get that sub to sound right.

I couldn't agree more than with your assessment on the subject. Adding a sub/subs to your 2 channel system is not for the faint of heart. It takes an awful lot of time & effort to do it right to obtain maximum results. For us old timers I think we still have a bad taste in our mouths from years ago when subs first hit the market. They were nothing more than a boom-box on steroids. They never sounded good in a 2 channel system. Now fast forward to today with the advancements in technology & design the sub has now become a powerhouse of an addition to any system. For those who have tried it & the results were not well received I can only assume two things: 1) the sub was not up to the challenge quality wise 2) the required time & energy to do it correctly was never done. In both cases I can fully understand where one would walk away with a bad taste in their mouth & the sub would always be looked upon as nothing more than a necessity for HT boom boom. That's a shame because the end results are startling regards of your speakers. I now look upon my dual Velo subs as a major component in my system. I did spend a lot of time along with trial & error to dial them both in & the time spent was well worth it. To add to the icing on the cake the addition of the Anti Mode 8033 sub EQ was another revelation on their performance. As I've always said adding subs is so much more than just the bottom end...it's literally the base foundation on which everything else depends on.

aboroth00

pearsall001 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more than with your assessment on the subject. Adding a sub/subs to your 2 channel system is not for the faint of heart. It takes an awful lot of time & effort to do it right to obtain maximum results. For us old timers I think we still have a bad taste in our mouths from years ago when subs first hit the market. They were nothing more than a boom-box on steroids. They never sounded good in a 2 channel system. Now fast forward to today with the advancements in technology & design the sub has now become a powerhouse of an addition to any system. For those who have tried it & the results were not well received I can only assume two things: 1) the sub was not up to the challenge quality wise 2) the required time & energy to do it correctly was never done. In both cases I can fully understand where one would walk away with a bad taste in their mouth & the sub would always be looked upon as nothing more than a necessity for HT boom boom. That's a shame because the end results are startling regards of your speakers. I now look upon my dual Velo subs as a major component in my system. I did spend a lot of time along with trial & error to dial them both in & the time spent was well worth it. To add to the icing on the cake the addition of the Anti Mode 8033 sub EQ was another revelation on their performance. As I've always said adding subs is so much more than just the bottom end...it's literally the base foundation on which everything else depends on.

I couldn't agree more with your assessment as well. If this was the time of yesteryear and I was running my vintage Infinity's for 2ch, I would've never thought twice about having a sub in the mix. The bass from the speakers were great. However, after seeing what subs of today, EQ, room measurement software, and adequate tweaking, I wouldn't think twice about NOT having a sub! It also allows me to use lower wattage amps and to use an active crossover with a high damping factor amp for the subwoofer without having all the damping go to waste on a passive crossover.

pearsall001

Yep, years ago a sub would have been a big no-no...not today though, it's a whole different world! Ya gotta love technology.

trav0810

I used to run my 2.3's with a Carver MKII, they lacked a little in the thump. I added a second M1.0 MKII...better, but still not the bass I like. I switched to the big Tannoy Mosfet I have now...bass to spare. Bass you feel in your chest. With the right amp, I cannot imagine the need at all for any extra subwoofer.

F1nut

With the right amp, I cannot imagine the need at all for any extra subwoofer.

Bingo!

Face

You could have all the best gear in the world, if your room's acoustics aren't bass friendly due to standing waves, no amp, speakers, spikes, or rings will fix it. Bass traps are fine for upper bass through treble, but for low bass, the only fixes besides an amp with huge headroom(and speakers that can handle it) and DSP, or additional subwoofers. High quality, sealed(preferably) subs crossed low and with a conservative gain adjustment can fill the bottom end seamlessly.

Disregard all I said above if you're still using a receiver to power such speakers.

aboroth00

Face wrote: »

You could have all the best gear in the world, if your room's acoustics aren't bass friendly due to standing waves, no amp, speakers, spikes, or rings will fix it. Bass traps are fine for upper bass through treble, but for low bass, the only fixes besides an amp with huge headroom(and speakers that can handle it) and DSP, or additional subwoofers. High quality, sealed(preferably) subs crossed low and with a conservative gain adjustment can fill the bottom end seamlessly.

Disregard all I said above if you're still using a receiver to power such speakers.

Agreed. Bass traps are a necessity to get proper response in the time domain (proper decay) which DSP can't do. You can touch the lower bass region ~40-50hz with a lot of bass trapping and soffits.

Makes me wonder whether the 2ch guys have ever heard a sub properly integrated. It's literally night and day in most cases IMO.

SCompRacer

trav0810 wrote: »

With the right amp, I cannot imagine the need at all for any extra subwoofer.

This does not apply for all situations. I have a good amp but it won't fill my main level space with 20Hz bass with 20Hz capable speakers. Not without help. Subs are the help, from 20-32Hz. I have JRiver and can apply DSP to my digital recordings, but I play vinyl too. The subs make it simple to play both media without limitation.

I determine the range of music that I will play here. There are charts that display the frequency range of instruments. If you don't play music with a frequency lower than what you can hear in your room with your speakers and gear, then yes, you don't need anything. But if you play music where you can't hear everything on the recording, then you are missing something.

F1nut

Makes me wonder whether the 2ch guys have ever heard a sub properly integrated.

Those that have heard my big rig can tell you I don't need no stinkin' sub. YMMV.