Sub or no Sub with SDA 2.3s
Comments
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Jesse, in some cases the space causes the deficiency, not the owner...lolSalk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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SCompRacer wrote: »Jesse, in some cases the space causes the deficiency, not the owner...lol
I have no doubt and one needs to do what they need to do. However, I have an issue with those that think a sub is required.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
It's definitely not always required, but not everyone is as fortunate to have a listening room like yours.I have no doubt and one needs to do what they need to do. However, I have an issue with those that think a sub is required."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I don't need no stinking sub either:)I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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MillerLiteScott wrote: »I don't need no stinking sub either:)
No, you don't.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I have no doubt and one needs to do what they need to do. However, I have an issue with those that think a sub is required.
Well it also matters how you define "need." If you need means you have linear response, uniform decay, low distortion, frequency extension to 20hz, getting rid of peaks and nulls, then most likely you'll "need" a subwoofer. I highly doubt in most setups without extensive room treatments, you can have all the aforementioned with the speakers in the same place that produces the best imaging. If you're content with the bass reproduction you have now then obviously you won't "need" a subwoofer.
I would wager in most setups, the setup would benefit from a properly calibrated and EQ-ed sub.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Those that have heard my big rig can tell you I don't need no stinkin' sub. YMMV.
As long as your happy that's all that counts."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »As long as your happy that's all that counts.
Amen!2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I think that, particularly with large floorstanders, sometimes the addition of a subwoofer can contribute to the detriment of the musical presentation. I experimented with adding a subwoofer to my floorstanding speakers, rated to play down to 33Hz -3db. Was the bass deeper and did it have greater impact down there? Yes. Did the overall presentation sound better? No, it didn't. I whisked it away and haven't looked back. Now that's a particular pair of speaker in a particular room. Might a subwoofer be a positive addition to a pair of 2.3s driven by a particular amplifier, in a particular room? I'm sure it could. But it might not in someone else's situation. So this really isn't about deriding subwoofers while grabbing your crotch, or belittling someone else because they don't use one. It's about situations and personal preference.
Two Channel Setup:
Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
DAC: Arcam irDac
Source: iMac
Remote Control: iPad Mini
3.2 Home Theater Setup:
Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
Center: Klipsch RP-160M
Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
TV Source: DirecTV Genie -
Loud & Clear wrote: »I think that, particularly with large floorstanders, sometimes the addition of a subwoofer can contribute to the detriment of the musical presentation. I experimented with adding a subwoofer to my floorstanding speakers, rated to play down to 33Hz -3db. Was the bass deeper and did it have greater impact down there? Yes. Did the overall presentation sound better? No, it didn't. I whisked it away and haven't looked back. Now that's a particular pair of speaker in a particular room. Might a subwoofer be a positive addition to a pair of 2.3s driven by a particular amplifier, in a particular room? I'm sure it could. But it might not in someone else's situation. So this really isn't about deriding subwoofers while grabbing your crotch, or belittling someone else because they don't use one. It's about situations and personal preference.
As I have said before, because the floorstanders are usually never in an ideal place to reproduce bass frequencies the addition of a properly calibrated and EQ-ed subwoofer in MOST situations will alleviate room related bass issues. Getting rid of peaks and nulls in the bass region does usually result in the subjective judgment of better overall presentation and tighter bass impact. However, I would argue that most people who just again add a subwoofer without going through the process of getting it properly integrated: DSP, measurements, positioning, adjusting the crossover ideally, then you probably will not get the full benefits of a sub.
The problem is the ROOM! A proper subwoofer setup generally WILL HELP. Ignoring the room in either case will not allow you to reach the fullest potential of your gear.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
If you can solve your room related bass issues without a sub then by all means but usually this requires extensive room treatments which isn't practical for the majority of us. If I ran my speakers which can do -3db at 25hz, I'd get horrible nulls and peaks, but the addition of a properly calibrated and located sub, I can get everything and more with a great linear response to 17hz. The nasty peaks which were detracting from the mids and highs are gone. The decay of the most of the bass frequencies is generally uniform and does it sound better? You bet your butt it does!2Ch Tube Audio Convert
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Great points gents and none are really wrong. Every situation/taste is different.
BTW- Yes, us 2 channel guys have heard properly integrated subs. To tell the truth, I actually like dual subs with bookies and smaller floorstanders. However, with big full rangers I agree it takes away from the overall presentation. At times it can draw too much attention to itself. That may or may not be attributed to the speed of which a good sub can belt it out, start and stop, compared to what your using for amplification on the rest of the speakers.
For me anyway, that was evident with Polks speakers with powered subs in them such as the RT "P" series and the LSI25's. A certain disconnect between the lower bass regions and the upper was apparent to my ears.
Again, no right or wrong here. We all have different tastes/rooms and so on.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
That sounds great. It clearly does work for you and you should continue to utilize a subwoofer.
Two Channel Setup:
Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
DAC: Arcam irDac
Source: iMac
Remote Control: iPad Mini
3.2 Home Theater Setup:
Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
Center: Klipsch RP-160M
Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
TV Source: DirecTV Genie -
Great points gents and none are really wrong. Every situation/taste is different.
BTW- Yes, us 2 channel guys have heard properly integrated subs. To tell the truth, I actually like dual subs with bookies and smaller floorstanders. However, with big full rangers I agree it takes away from the overall presentation. At times it can draw too much attention to itself.
If the sub is drawing too much attention to itself, then it really isn't properly integrated. A sub or room issue is apparent and needs to be solved.That may or may not be attributed to the speed of which a good sub can belt it out, start and stop, compared to what your using for amplification on the rest of the speakers.
This has nothing to do with the amplification of the rest of the speakers. A good sub properly EQ-ed can belt it out, start stop just fine compared your mains.For me anyway, that was evident with Polks speakers with powered subs in them such as the RT "P" series and the LSI25's. A certain disconnect between the lower bass regions and the upper was apparent to my ears.
As I have said before, where your mains are located is not ideal for bass reproduction.
If our goal is to have good bass response at the LP, in-room, then there is a right and wrong. Whatever gets us closer to good bass response, linear FR, uniform decay is right and anything that causes standing waves, peaks and nulls is wrong. The solutions may vary from room to room but generally speaking your mains won't produce as good a bass response than a properly located and eq-ed sub.Again, no right or wrong here. We all have different tastes/rooms and so on.
If we want to solve the room issues then there is generally two ways to go about it: room treatments or locating your bass tranducer to a more ideal location in-room. If you can get great bass response based on the aforementioned criteria at where your speakers are (VERY UNLIKELY) then you should keep doing with what you're doing. But in most cases, your bass response is probably +/- 10db.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
If the sub is drawing too much attention to itself, then it really isn't properly integrated. A sub or room issue is apparent and needs to be solved.
This has nothing to do with the amplification of the rest of the speakers. A good sub properly EQ-ed can belt it out, start stop just fine compared your mains.
As I have said before, where your mains are located is not ideal for bass reproduction.
If our goal is to have good bass response at the LP, in-room, then there is a right and wrong. Whatever gets us closer to good bass response, linear FR, uniform decay is right and anything that causes standing waves, peaks and nulls is wrong. The solutions may vary from room to room but generally speaking your mains won't produce as good a bass response than a properly located and eq-ed sub.
If we want to solve the room issues then there is generally two ways to go about it: room treatments or locating your bass tranducer to a more ideal location in-room. If you can get great bass response based on the aforementioned criteria at where your speakers are (VERY UNLIKELY) then you should keep doing with what you're doing. But in most cases, your bass response is probably +/- 10db.
You missed the point chief, whats good for me may not be for you, thus right and wrong are thrown out the window. Now if you want to take perfect in-room response with measurements, that still may not be pleasing to someones ears, thus again, making it wrong for that person. See what I'm sayin' ?
When it comes down to matters of subjectivity, such as audio certainly is, right and wrong become a very grey area. Many different ways to improve bass response as already stated, but the average home is limited, what can be achieved then becomes limited. Like Clint Eastwood would say, A man's got to know his limitations. LOL.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
You missed the point chief, whats good for me may not be for you, thus right and wrong are thrown out the window. Now if you want to take perfect in-room response with measurements, that still may not be pleasing to someones ears, thus again, making it wrong for that person. See what I'm sayin' ?
When it comes down to matters of subjectivity, such as audio certainly is, right and wrong become a very grey area. Many different ways to improve bass response as already stated, but the average home is limited, what can be achieved then becomes limited. Like Clint Eastwood would say, A man's got to know his limitations. LOL.
There's a difference between musical preference and proper setup. What you and I are in disagreement about is proper setup. We all want deep, tight, coherent bass not flabby, boomy, indistinct bass. Proper setup is less disputed than a preferred voicing or sound. Bass doesn't really have a voicing or its distinct timbre as our ears are less sensitive to this region. With subs, there is plenty of papers, research, DIY, trial-and-error that has gone into proper setup and that's where I draw my knowledge from.
Good for me and should be for everyone is faithful and accurate reproduction of the recording. I see that you like to poo poo measurements but I'm using them as a useful tool. For example, if you have a 10db peak or null, at a particular frequency you're not gonna get the detail sound of a bass guitar being plucked at that frequency and it will smear the presentation of the sound. I would dispute if one were to hear a good bass reproduction within the criteria I had listed before, the vast majority of people would claim it to be more pleasing. It's like going from Bose to a good speaker. Bose is obviously a wrong reproduction of sound.
Right and wrong is not so much a grey area as I have repeatedly told you before. Look up papers by Toole, the Harman white papers and it'll elucidate the ever so mysterious realm of bass reproduction. Yes the average home is limited. That is why I don't tell people to bass trap their entire room and adorn the walls with wall treatments. That is why the addition of a sub is such a novel solution to solve the room's bass reproduction problems. Add a sub, set it up correctly, EQ it and voila you can have accurate bass reproduction. If you ever took a measurement of your room, you'll see with your eyes what your ears are currently lacking. And when you correct the defects, you'll probably be amazed of what's there. Try it and see for yourself.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Should be fine without a sub for music. I'd only add a sub if used for movies.
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I have the 2.3s and am alternating them between the kenwood 700m and my brother's BA5000 which I am currently trying.
I find they have slightly more bass with the BA5000 (300wpc) but the 700m is no slouch and I prefer it on some recordings.
Anyways, I did some experimenting with stereo subs (polk psw 505s nothing crazy but decent).
I found when I split the pre out from the pre amp and ran the rca into the sub, bass was a bit off in timing and it really affected the imaging (also level matching was a bit more difficult with certain amps)
I then ran the speaker wires from the amp, to the sub and then to the speakers -> imaging improved.
I am still currently running without subs but there are certain recording that I enjoy more bass and the subs complemented them nicely and I will rotate them back in.
I see the merits of both setups, rooms definitely play a role and I am not in an ideal setup. Maybe in a larger room I might not need a sub but I enjoy messing about and changing things around.
Mike -
There's a difference between musical preference and proper setup. What you and I are in disagreement about is proper setup. We all want deep, tight, coherent bass not flabby, boomy, indistinct bass. Proper setup is less disputed than a preferred voicing or sound. Bass doesn't really have a voicing or its distinct timbre as our ears are less sensitive to this region. With subs, there is plenty of papers, research, DIY, trial-and-error that has gone into proper setup and that's where I draw my knowledge from.
Good for me and should be for everyone is faithful and accurate reproduction of the recording. I see that you like to poo poo measurements but I'm using them as a useful tool. For example, if you have a 10db peak or null, at a particular frequency you're not gonna get the detail sound of a bass guitar being plucked at that frequency and it will smear the presentation of the sound. I would dispute if one were to hear a good bass reproduction within the criteria I had listed before, the vast majority of people would claim it to be more pleasing. It's like going from Bose to a good speaker. Bose is obviously a wrong reproduction of sound.
Right and wrong is not so much a grey area as I have repeatedly told you before. Look up papers by Toole, the Harman white papers and it'll elucidate the ever so mysterious realm of bass reproduction. Yes the average home is limited. That is why I don't tell people to bass trap their entire room and adorn the walls with wall treatments. That is why the addition of a sub is such a novel solution to solve the room's bass reproduction problems. Add a sub, set it up correctly, EQ it and voila you can have accurate bass reproduction. If you ever took a measurement of your room, you'll see with your eyes what your ears are currently lacking. And when you correct the defects, you'll probably be amazed of what's there. Try it and see for yourself.
Dude, I'm well schooled on proper setup, but your still missing the point. If you set up a room to be perfect in bass response, perfect by any measureable device, it still may not be ideal for certain individuals no matter how correct it is. Thus, it would be wrong for that persons ears no matter how "right" it is. Also, who listens to music with their eyes for gods sake ? Seeing it as perfect on a screen or graph doesn't make it so to the ears....and that is what counts.
subjectivity can not be measured, if so, please supply info on that tool because I can make a fortune on it. Yes there is a difference between musical preference and proper set up and in most cases you hit something in the middle of those two. But preference in music...preference in sound trumps anything else.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Unfortunately, plenty of people do: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html I would say the source is pretty credible too: http://www.linkedin.com/in/seanoliveAlso, who listens to music with their eyes for gods sake ? Seeing it as perfect on a screen or graph doesn't make it so to the ears....and that is what counts."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Unfortunately, plenty of people do: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html I would say the source is pretty credible too: http://www.linkedin.com/in/seanolive
Oh yeah. For instance, sight allows you to visible place where the music is coming from. Sometimes, by seeing a speaker in front of you, you place the source there. If you see a subwoofer you might even think you can spot the bass signal coming from it.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Dude, I'm well schooled on proper setup, but your still missing the point. If you set up a room to be perfect in bass response, perfect by any measureable device, it still may not be ideal for certain individuals no matter how correct it is. Thus, it would be wrong for that persons ears no matter how "right" it is. Also, who listens to music with their eyes for gods sake ? Seeing it as perfect on a screen or graph doesn't make it so to the ears....and that is what counts.
subjectivity can not be measured, if so, please supply info on that tool because I can make a fortune on it. Yes there is a difference between musical preference and proper set up and in most cases you hit something in the middle of those two. But preference in music...preference in sound trumps anything else.
I believe you're still missing the point. I'm not talking about perfect, I'm talking better than crap bass response, i.e. very large peaks, nulls, cancellations. Something better than crap is going to sound better than crap and subjectively will be preferred. Being able to visualize the flaws and correcting it allows you to have better bass response.
If you want an analogy. For instance, there's a hole in the response of a speaker in the midrange and thus you're missing detail and frequencies in that region. Let's replace get rid of that hole and allow your speaker to perform in that range. Subjectively that usually sounds better to most people. What i'm talking about doing with a subwoofer is the same thing. Solving that hole and in certian cases taming peaks that cause an overemphasis over a certain frequency usually is subjectively better.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Here's an FYI, while attending RMAF this last year. Wilson's Alexandria XLF which on there own can extend below 20hz. They added a pair of Thor's Hammer sub's all in all it was a great presentation. You throw up a wide screen and projector and you would never have to buy another ticket to a live concert/show again....it was that good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LohZKxklzIA2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I believe you're still missing the point. I'm not talking about perfect, I'm talking better than crap bass response, i.e. very large peaks, nulls, cancellations. Something better than crap is going to sound better than crap and subjectively will be preferred. Being able to visualize the flaws and correcting it allows you to have better bass response.
If you want an analogy. For instance, there's a hole in the response of a speaker in the midrange and thus you're missing detail and frequencies in that region. Let's replace get rid of that hole and allow your speaker to perform in that range. Subjectively that usually sounds better to most people. What i'm talking about doing with a subwoofer is the same thing. Solving that hole and in certian cases taming peaks that cause an overemphasis over a certain frequency usually is subjectively better.
LOL...Dude, I'm not disagreeing with the methods or the reasoning why. I actually agree with you for the most part. My point is simple....if there are no perceived deficiencies in the sound, then to that person, none exist....which means then there's nothing to correct. Yeah I know, enter subjectivity but this whole frickin' hobby of audio is subjective. The methods we use, the calibration tools we use are meant as guidelines, not commandments written in stone. That's all I'm saying. BTW, seeing nulls and peaks as per your example is helpful when used as a tool, agreed, but may not necessarily be the end result desired.
Now let me give you an example. An artist in a recording studio doesn't record his music to ruler flat responses and eliminate bass nulls and peaks. That may be done in the room by the recording artist but in general the musician is looking for a certain sound to portray himself and his music. That sound is most likely enhanced one way or another in the process. That's why all recordings sound different, yes ? They are enhanced away from ruler flat responses and perfect bass notes to what pleases the artist.
Do we not do the same in our own homes ? We adjust, maybe take some sweeps, do the best we can with peaks and nulls, listen, adjust some more, but in the end we will no doubt adjust to what pleases our individual tastes. That may or may not be too far off from ruler flat responses and perfect bass, depends on the individual.
When it comes to setting up a system, yes there are tools and methods to get you going in the right direction but in the end, your ears are always the judge and jury.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
To the OP, I think it's obvious that there are going to be those that obstinately hold to a position based on pride or personal preference then promote it as gospel. As with all things, your perception, wants, and abilities are the determining factors. How important to you is the quality of the lowest octave? How substantial is the perceived difference, to you? And, how much are you willing to spend to chase that goal?
I guarantee that I would want a sub (two actually), if I owned F1's rig. But I suspect I place a higher value in the most accurate, impactful, and textural bass, which just isn't going to come from these speakers, and have different tastes. The caveat is that just adding any old sub will not do. The SRS alone, despite their roll-off, will likely be perceived as more pleasing than if you added one mediocre subwoofer. If you bring in two subwoofers appropriately sized to your room and appropriately placed to even out the IRFR, you will have a much more complete system. But take care to make sure they are of equal performance quality, and equalized, levelmatched, and/or integrated using DSP and finding using the natural roll off of your speakers to set the xover point.
REL subwoofers are excellent for this. Just make sure you get one that utilizes ARM loading.
CHT craigssub 18.2 (?) is a brute
SVS has some big boys.
JTR (any model will MORE than suffice) If I were looking fo r the end all/be all I'd get two OrbitShifters and be done
similar for the Seaton Submersive.
Or, in the opinion of some, the ultimate in a DIY infinite baffle setup
At any rate, you want to move a lot of air, and this is the way to do it efficiently. My guess is that if you're asking the question, you'll enjoy the results a quality sub or two will bring.design is where science and art break even. -
And to your point, Tony, I think a person could be content with their listening situation, i.e. no perceptible faults, but still imagine a more acurate (subjectively "better") set-up. I think half of the forum posts on Polk attest to that fact. As audio enthusiasts, we are often content, but rarely satisfied.design is where science and art break even.
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Phil I want to get my ears on your rig!!
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Maybe we all need high frequency modules as well. Super Tweeters. Not that our speakers' tweeters aren't doing a good job. But to achieve perfection by stabilizing and correcting high frequency response within our rooms, surely a super tweeter must be employed. And midrange augmentation by separate midrange modules with response correction software, which adjusts listening position midrange balance on the fly. You can't even tell that it's happening.
Two Channel Setup:
Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
DAC: Arcam irDac
Source: iMac
Remote Control: iPad Mini
3.2 Home Theater Setup:
Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
Center: Klipsch RP-160M
Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
TV Source: DirecTV Genie -
I guarantee that I would want a sub (two actually), if I owned F1's rig. But I suspect I place a higher value in the most accurate, impactful, and textural bass, which just isn't going to come from these speakers, and have different tastes.
LOL.....nice to see nothing has changed, that you're still as clueless as they come.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
LOL...Dude, I'm not disagreeing with the methods or the reasoning why. I actually agree with you for the most part. My point is simple....if there are no perceived deficiencies in the sound, then to that person, none exist....which means then there's nothing to correct. Yeah I know, enter subjectivity but this whole frickin' hobby of audio is subjective. The methods we use, the calibration tools we use are meant as guidelines, not commandments written in stone. That's all I'm saying. BTW, seeing nulls and peaks as per your example is helpful when used as a tool, agreed, but may not necessarily be the end result desired.
Now let me give you an example. An artist in a recording studio doesn't record his music to ruler flat responses and eliminate bass nulls and peaks. That may be done in the room by the recording artist but in general the musician is looking for a certain sound to portray himself and his music. That sound is most likely enhanced one way or another in the process. That's why all recordings sound different, yes ? They are enhanced away from ruler flat responses and perfect bass notes to what pleases the artist.
Do we not do the same in our own homes ? We adjust, maybe take some sweeps, do the best we can with peaks and nulls, listen, adjust some more, but in the end we will no doubt adjust to what pleases our individual tastes. That may or may not be too far off from ruler flat responses and perfect bass, depends on the individual.
When it comes to setting up a system, yes there are tools and methods to get you going in the right direction but in the end, your ears are always the judge and jury.
Recording and reproduction are two different animals. There is a reason why recordings happen in a studio where it is a controlled environment to eliminate booms/nulls/peaks/flabbiness to get proper acoustics for recording otherwise what you hear will be crap such as a mixed tape from a garage band.
I am not talking about ruler flat responses, i'm talking about reasonably good bass response in room. I am saying there will be a perceived difference in sound if you can get your in-room bass response under control. A room has modes which are excited by your speaker and cause peaks and nulls at various frequencies in the bass region. For example, a bass guitar open E is ~41hz and the F is ~43hz. If you have a null in this region, when playing back the bass guitar, the note playing back will sound diminished and less detail. If you have a peak in this region, when it plays the note will drown out the rest of the music.
If you want to ignore what the room is doing then you're ignoring one of the biggest factors in good audio reproduction. You may talk about the right amps, speakers, preamp, so on, but it's the room, resonances and reflections that dictate what you're hearing. We don't listen in an anechoic chamber so we must make the best of our ROOM! A sub is good way to correct for room issues. That is my point.2Ch Tube Audio Convert
