Added second 20 amp line for amps

BlueFox

Monday I had a second dedicated 20 amp line installed for my amps. Prior, I had a Shunyata Triton, for the source gear, plugged into a bottom outlet, and a Shunyata Cyclops, for the amps, plugged into the top outlet of a dedicated line. At this point, I was very happy with my two channel system. It was sounding great, and while I know everything can be upgraded, and/or tweaked, ad infinitum, I have been content for a few months now.

Not any more.

This second line has given a performance increase was beyond what I was expecting. After the electrician finished, and I turned it on, I could immediately tell it was better. Much better. Even cold, it was sounding great. The electrician even commented it sounded like the players were in the room, although he might have been just applying a little salesmanship.

One thing I was a bit nervous about was ground loop, hum, etc. The first thing I did after the amps had a few seconds to charge was turn up the volume and get next to each speaker. Zero noise, dead silence. Good. So from here on out it was let the music play, let the new circuit get acclimated to the house, and listen to the music, and it just got better and better as the night wore on. As the gear meshed, the soundstage became more integrated with a much more horizontal layered effect. It is uncanny. All in all, the music seems more relaxed, as if it requires less effort for the amps. In fact, at my usual settings, it does seem a bit louder, but that might just be because it is clearer, with a quieter background.

One thing is certain. I was literally just laughing over and over last night at how good it sounded. A song would play, I would smile, and then just break out laughing. To me, that was impressive. I just love how things done with this hobby can have such positive effects on my mood. At some point this upgrade will become the new norm, but I hope this does not wear off too soon. However, when it does I will be ready and add a Shunyata Typhon to the Triton used for my source gear. One thing though, in so far as return on investment, this has to be one of the better upgrades. For a few hundred dollars, it is allowing everything to work quite well together. Electronics, cables, speakers, and power are acting as one, and creating a beautiful sound.

To be honest, I think I get more pleasure from power and cable upgrades than from gear upgrades. I expect better gear to create better sound, but, even now, I am still amazed at the improvements from power and cabling. I have said this more than once either here or on other forums, but I now consider power and cabling to be the foundation of a system. A solid foundation allows modest gear to perform at its best, and allows better gear to perform at its potential right from the start. Without a solid foundation, it is impossible for any gear to perform anywhere near its potential.

Ern Dog

Nice job Blue Fox! I don't think I know anybody who has gone balls out with an all out assault on the power side of the hobby. You definitely take the cake. This is an area that is often ignored, but adds a huge pay off. I'd same the same about room treatment too.

One of the biggest Improvements I've heard in my rig for the price ($35), was adding a Porter Port wall receptacle. I had been using the cheap stock ones and was blown away by the improvement.

Phish56466

There was a post related to this recently that I'd chimed in on-ALONG THESE LINES. When I went from a shared 15 amp breaker for the system to a dedicated 20 amp I noticed a difference in the mid-bass(was MUCH tighter). If you feed an amp crapola from the wall, you WILL get crapola at the outputs! You can put a 12AWG cord that's REALLY nice on gear, but it generally won't matter because the breaker and wiring isn't up to snuff. Good read.

disneyjoe7

Nice, the more 20's you can have the better IMHO. I once considered doing 3 20's, one for the source, one for the amps, then another for a sub.

mantis

One of the most overlooked things in a system, nice work my friend.

Inspector 24

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Nice, the more 20's you can have the better IMHO. I once considered doing 3 20's, one for the source, one for the amps, then another for a sub.

This is my plan eventually, possibly a fourth for the PJ.

OP, glad you like the results! Gives me motivation!

Speedskater

If you are doing that many circuits, Run one real big 120V circuit from the main breaker box (like 60, 80 or 100 Amps) to a small breaker box at a central point in your listening room. The less wire length between components the better.

disneyjoe7

Yeah and run them with 10/2 romex cable. Still 20 amp circuit, but a larger cable wired.

The sub panel idea is nice also, but couldn't do that in my old house.

Inspector 24

Speedskater wrote: »

If you are doing that many circuits, Run one real big 120V circuit from the main breaker box (like 60, 80 or 100 Amps) to a small breaker box at a central point in your listening room. The less wire length between components the better.

That's not a bad idea.

aboroth00

Solar power?!

Phish56466

If I were going to do more than two circuits, I'd run a 60 amp breaker(#6 wire for power, #8 for grounds) to a sub panel and go from there. That will give you PLENTY of room to expand later. You're going to have a HARD time finding a single phase 120Vac breaker that large(MOST are 240Vac double gang breakers). Make sure your sub panel has the bonding screw set, and your grounds are good and it should be fine. Might even consider another ground rod for the sub panel. As with ANYTHING like this, check your local codes and whatnot FIRST! It would suck to have all this done(or do it yourself) only to find out it won't meet code.

Phasewolf

Come on man, rip all that wire out and use a centrally located Tesla coil. No wire to not keep up with the current you need just think about how fun it would be to have a electrical storm in your house nightly.

Rf burns are a lot of fun too...

But you have the right idea 3 or 4 nice 20 amp circuits will perk up your amps ever time and if I get my way I soon will have a few myself well see.

BlueFox

Youse guys are making things to difficult.

In regard to adding the 60 amp line for a sub-panel, wouldn't that only yield three 20 amp circuits?

Speedskater

BlueFox wrote: »

[..............................]
In regard to adding the 60 amp line for a sub-panel, wouldn't that only yield three 20 amp circuits?

No, you could connect 20 or more 20 Amp circuits or as many as fit in the breaker box. Your only limit is 60 Amps total, continuously for 3 hours.
With the exceptions of projectors and Class 'A' power amps most audio equipment only draws high current for a few seconds at a time.

A typical home 200 Amp service might have 32 breakers (most at 20 Amp) that total up to maybe 600 or 800 Amps.

Speedskater

Phish56466 wrote: »

If I were going to do more than two circuits, I'd run a 60 amp breaker(#6 wire for power, #8 for grounds) to a sub panel and go from there.

The Safety Ground wire (EGC) should be the same size as the Hot & Neutral.
You can use a little 6 breaker box, you don't need a full sub-panel.

You're going to have a HARD time finding a single phase 120Vac breaker that large(MOST are 240Vac double gang breakers).

You may have to look in more than one store, but single pole breakers are available in 40, 50, 60 & 70 Amps.

Might even consider another ground rod for the sub panel.

NEVER add a ground rod at any place other than the building's power service entrance.
Ground rod's are for (mostly) thunderstorms they add nothing to the power quality for your audio system.

As with ANYTHING like this, check your local codes and whatnot FIRST! It would suck to have all this done(or do it yourself) only to find out it won't meet code.

Very true!

treitz3

BlueFox wrote: »

.....After the electrician finished, and I turned it on, I could immediately tell it was better. Much better. Even cold, it was sounding great.....One thing I was a bit nervous about was ground loop, hum, etc....Zero noise, dead silence.....listen[ing] to the music....it just got better and better as the night wore on. As the gear meshed, the sound stage became more integrated with a much more horizontal layered effect....All in all, the music seems more relaxed, as if it requires less effort for the amps. In fact, at my usual settings, it does seem a bit louder, but that might just be because it is clearer, with a quieter background. One thing is certain. I was literally just laughing over and over last night at how good it sounded.....One thing though, in so far as return on investment, this has to be one of the better upgrades. For a few hundred dollars, it is allowing everything to work quite well together. Electronics, cables, speakers, and power are acting as one, and creating a beautiful sound. I am still amazed at the improvements from power and cabling.

Hello all. I went ahead and took the liberty to edit the OP to show what the audible differences were, based upon BluFox's observations. These are the key points IMO of his observations and I think mantis nailed it on the head when he said that this is "One of the most overlooked things in a system". I just so happen to agree.

Tom

Irrenhaus

I have a question that I probably already know the answers. But here it goes.

I am planning to add to two dedicated circuits for the system. My panel box have two spare 15 amp breakers. Will it better to replace those with 20 amp breakers.

Cheers

Speedskater

The only time a breaker makes a difference is when it trips.
They do not limit (reasonable) instantaneous current draw.

With the exceptions of video projectors and big power amps all your other equipment can easily operate on a 15A circuit with lots of room to spare.

But if you are using 12AWG (or larger) wire, why not switch to a 20A breaker?

disneyjoe7

There's nothing better then a clean power feed....

Phasewolf

You can add as many ground rods as you want but they all need to be tied to the original one. If they are not tied to the original one with if I recall #6 copper wire then it can cause bad things to happen like the ground potential could be lower at one point then a other and that can be a very bad thing.

zingo

I have a 60A box on my deck that fed a hot-tub when we moved in. After immediately removing the hot-tub, I turned off the box after pulling the wires back to the box, and now I'm giving this separate breaker a second thought. I would have to do some rewiring as it's located on the elevated deck and run along the exterior of the house, due to the fact that the bottom level is slab-on-grade, and my stereo is located in a family room which is on that slab.

Or maybe I'll just install an outlet on that box and go crazy next year with the Christmas lights...

kevhed72

Funny how timely this thread is, as I am close to adding a sub panel. One question - I'll cut to the chase - adding one 60amp sub-panel to the main box seems straightforward to me.....but the sub panel itself - how many 20 amp breakers can you realistically get in there - I would be happy with 6 total - 3 20 amp circuits for audio stuff, 1 20 amp circuit for regular outlets and lights for the basement, and 2 to spare for future use. OR can I go even bigger on the sub panel with even extra circuits for the future?

BlueFox

kevhed72 wrote: »

Funny how timely this thread is, as I am close to adding a sub panel. One question - I'll cut to the chase - adding one 60amp sub-panel to the main box seems straightforward to me.....but the sub panel itself - how many 20 amp breakers can you realistically get in there - I would be happy with 6 total - 3 20 amp circuits for audio stuff, 1 20 amp circuit for regular outlets and lights for the basement, and 2 to spare for future use. OR can I go even bigger on the sub panel with even extra circuits for the future?

This was the answer to that question given in post 14.

Speedskater wrote: »

No, you could connect 20 or more 20 Amp circuits or as many as fit in the breaker box. Your only limit is 60 Amps total, continuously for 3 hours.
With the exceptions of projectors and Class 'A' power amps most audio equipment only draws high current for a few seconds at a time.

A typical home 200 Amp service might have 32 breakers (most at 20 Amp) that total up to maybe 600 or 800 Amps.

txcoastal1

Generally 12 20amp breakers in a 60amp box

kevhed72

Cool....just wanted to double check.....thanks much.

txcoastal1

kevhed72 wrote: »

Cool....just wanted to double check.....thanks much.

But do the math that doesn't give you 6x20amp loads.......just messing with ya

ibewbrother

First....My Credentials....Journeyman Inside Wireman since June 1 2001.

Second...I can wire anything....my specialty being industrial automation controls....

Third...Residential wiring is...at best....jack legged.

I have done several things to My house....counduit runs...etc....and a sub feed. What everyone needs to know is that stranded wire has better electrical properties than solid.....Does anyone use solid speaker wire?

I have run a few dedicated circuits for my stuff and it is all #12 stranded. Hooks up to 20 amp breaker....$5.

If you want to get really hard then so or dlo cable will pull more amperage and reduce eddy current effect...

And I really don't think that a $50 recepticle is that much different than a regular spec grade.....

F1nut

10/2 Romex fed thru 1" aluminum conduit on 30 amp breakers to double gang outlet boxes lined with Dynamat Extreme to modified PS Audio Soloist Premier SE outlets. Oh yeah!!!



That's weird, the pic was upright. Oh well, turn your head.

F1nut

Does anyone use solid speaker wire?

Yes, there are a number of companies using solid wire and others using a combination of solid and stranded in speaker cables and power cords.

ibewbrother

I will say nice job with the flex...

romex is solid wire....and are the expensive outlets RATED at 30 amps.....and why would they be for 120 vac stuff?????

So...I say....your #10 solid will not match My 4c#12 stranded....


And why would you want to overload outlets......you want the breakers to trip in an overcurrent situation
But....voltage drop.....measure that by 1000 feet.

F1nut

romex is solid wire....and are the expensive outlets RATED at 30 amps.....and why would they be for 120 vac stuff?????

And why would you want to overload outlets......you want the breakers to trip in an overcurrent situation

Because my amp has a max rating of 1980 watts, over the safety margin for a 20 amp line and well under the 30 amp. No worries about issues with the outlet or breaker.

So...I say....your #10 solid will not match My 4c#12 stranded....

I couldn't say. I will say I've never heard a completely stranded speaker cable that I liked.

But....voltage drop.....measure that by 1000 feet.

No following you on that one.