Added second 20 amp line for amps

ibewbrother

Well....you know more than me.....I only went through 5 years of apprenticeship to learn the trade. I guess I should get some of that 10000volt 500kcmil armor and try to hook it up to a 120vac 30???? amp plug on a .....what 50 amp breaker?

treitz3

Hello, ibewbrother. Let me offer you some friendly advice. What you learn in school about electricity and electronics is one thing. In this hobby, you would do yourself justice if you disregarded your education whilst listening and simply trust your ears.

Tom

CoolJazz

Said another way....UL code for safety, the minimums, aren't what give us maximum audio performance.

Lower impedance delivery is what it's all about. Less modulation of the source and better supression of the HF noise that's present from ALL the junk switch mode supplies present in so much of the electronics any more.

CJ

Speedskater

We have to remember that "IBEW brother" is an industrial electrician and looks at things from a big power prospective.

Some thoughts on stranded and solid wire:

a] Stranded wire is easier to twist as a pair or a quad.
b] Stranded wire is easier to pull through a conduit.
c] Stranded wire and solid wire sound the same whether it's in a AC power cable or a speaker cable.

On quad power cable. He seems to have a typo, but what I think he meant was:

A star-quad power cable consisting of 2 Hot 12AWG wires, 2 Neutral 12AWG and 2 Safety Ground 12AWG (EGC) wires. With the Hot's and Neutral's twisted in a spiral. The ground or grounds should not be part of the twisted spiral.

The two problems do this are:
a] The NEC has a weird rule about not using parallel wires in smaller sizes. But it's OK with bigger wire.
b] Most devices don't permit 2 wires in one slot (connection) so you have to plan ahead.

CoolJazz

Speedskater wrote: »

c] Stranded wire and solid wire sound the same whether it's in a AC power cable or a speaker cable.

I'm not sure you're get universal agreement on that one!


With regards to AC power cable, the big guy sizes are all done with multiple strands of smaller gauges making up the single larger conductor. That's when you get up to the heavy draw sizes anyway. I don't think I've ever seen a solid above the bigger romex sizes.

And when you get to really big draw setups, you do see separate wire being used in multiple going to clamps that allow two wires onto one contactor. Like I've seen a 800A will have two separate conduits with 400A wiring in each, just so the wire size can be worked with at all. It's a physical battle for multiple guys to pull those in thru conduits that have very little bending in them. But that's of course beyond our simple residential stuff.

CJ

ibewbrother

Ahhh....the stories I could tell..The best is a 1700 foot armored cable pull....over 2200 degrees of bend. Cable itself weighed over 11000 pounds...we didn't have a forklift big enough to pick the reel up. That one took around 17 guys about 2 weeks to get in....up 2 floors and back down...around a loading dock...across a bridge between buildings...I still have nightmares about it....3 Greenlee SuperTuggers (around 10000pounds pulling power each) finally got it in...and we broke just about everything our contractor had in the process....

treitz3

All of which has not one thing to do with audio or the topic of this thread. I'm lost as to what your point is. There are many on this board, myself included, that could swap fish stories about their electrical escapades all day long because we have already been there, done that. What your post has to do with this thread is where I get lost. We were talking about a member here at Club Polk adding a second 20 amp line and subsequently offering his observations to the end result.

If you don't have anything to add to that discussion, I'd like to request that you refrain from posting in this thread as you are adding nothing that folks can learn from about the topic at hand.

Tom

F1nut

ibewbrother wrote: »

Well....you know more than me.....I only went through 5 years of apprenticeship to learn the trade.

When it comes to audio related matters I have the utmost confidence that yes, I do. The bottom line is that the current 10/2, 30 amp breaker set up surpasses the sound quality I got from the 12/2, 20 amp breaker set up.

Speedskater wrote:

c] Stranded wire and solid wire sound the same whether it's in a AC power cable or a speaker cable.

My experience says otherwise, YMMV.

F1nut

Ha, just noticed that my picture righted itself. :cool:

treitz3

F1nut wrote: »

My experience says otherwise, YMMV.

My mileage doesn't vary. My observations agree with yours.

Tom

kevhed72

Speedskater wrote: »

The only time a breaker makes a difference is when it trips.
They do not limit (reasonable) instantaneous current draw.

With the exceptions of video projectors and big power amps all your other equipment can easily operate on a 15A circuit with lots of room to spare.

But if you are using 12AWG (or larger) wire, why not switch to a 20A breaker?

I never thought about a PJ possibly pulling alot of power....not saying it's not true, but never thought about it. Wonder what a dedicated circuit would do for a PJ if thats the case....

BlueFox

I have been off all week, so the stereo is getting a lot of use. Anyway, it sounds great. The line is burning in, and appears settled. So far, I still smile and laugh at the music, so it must be working.

One thing I am noticing now is that I can hear "deeper" into the music. While at low levels (60-80db range) it is fine, at higher levels with rock I think I am hearing a digital artifact on top of the music. It is like a very high frequency, and faint, level of distortion above the music. It is hard to hear, but there when you concentrate. Between my recent upgrade to Shunyata Alpha Digital power cables on my file player and DAC, which removes high frequency noise generated by digital gear, and the addition of the second line, the ability to hear this is now possible. Also, it isn't something that makes music unlistenable, but more an annoyance once you notice it.


It is obviously common to both channels, and since it is on all songs, it isn't source related. My first guess is the DAC is the source. While the Bryston BDA2 is a great DAC, it is missing the filters found in higher end gear for various digital artifacts. So, the question is what is the upgrade without breaking the bank that can resolve this issue. On the other hand, I don't crank it that much either, so I can certainly live with it. Oh well, this is what makes this a fun hobby.

disneyjoe7

I don't see a issue going up 1 gauge wire so 12/2 is 20 amp circuit. 10/2 is a 30 amp circuit, but it's legal to put a 20 circuit on that. The bigger gauge wire would loss less voltage between the circuit breaker and outlet receptacle.

treitz3

BlueFox wrote: »

While at low levels (60-80db range) it is fine, at higher levels with rock I think I am hearing a digital artifact on top of the music. It is like a very high frequency, and faint, level of distortion above the music. It is hard to hear, but there when you concentrate.

Hello and good morning to you, BlueFox.

Hmmm, do you have any tubes or gear that is possibly sensitive to vibrations in the mix? The reason I ask is that I experienced the same type of sound in my rig years ago. After adding tube dampers and isolation devices under the gear, this noise disappeared for good. The key words that struck me with what you said were, "It is like a very high frequency, and faint, level of distortion above the music". I heard the same thing and it seemed to follow the volume level and music transients.....always above the music, if you will, but definitely noticeable [albeit somewhat faint] and definitely annoying once you hear it.

I would also like to point out that I never noticed this until I upgraded some of my power and cabling to better performers that made the background extremely quiet. I had not noticed this prior to but once you hear it.....well, in my case, once I heard it.....it really detracted from the overall enjoyment of the music itself. Unwanted artifacts have a tendency to do that. I hope this helps and best of luck in chasing this. When it's gone, the music simply becomes sublime.

Tom

treitz3

Oh, forgot one thing. If you do happen to have a tube(s) in the mix, what you may be hearing could be the result of microphonics. I would suggest trying the damping and vibration/isolation first of all of your gear [even if you use something temporary just to find out] and if that doesn't do it, you might want to start looking at a tube(s) as a suspect.

Tom

gmcman

Good thread as I was just looking to add a dedicated 20A circuit myself. Luck has it my panel is in the room behind the wall with the gear.....just need to get it under the floor joists.

I much prefer solid wire for electrical connections since when I tighten the lug on the wire, I'm far more confident the solid wire is secure over stranded.

Speedskater wrote: »

c] Stranded wire and solid wire sound the same whether it's in a AC power cable or a speaker cable.

This has been debated countless times on many forums and I think you will find the majority of people attest to the fact there is indeed a difference in solid vs. stranded for speaker wire. I can say for sure solid works better for me.

gmcman

Taken from the B&K owners manual for the 200.x series of amps. Sounds like if you can run a dedicated circuit it's definitely the way to go.

BlueFox

treitz3 wrote: »

Oh, forgot one thing. If you do happen to have a tube(s) in the mix, what you may be hearing could be the result of microphonics. I would suggest trying the damping and vibration/isolation first of all of your gear [even if you use something temporary just to find out] and if that doesn't do it, you might want to start looking at a tube(s) as a suspect.

Tom

No tubes in the mix. I think I may have over stressed my ears this week. Since I had the week off, whenever I was home the stereo was on. If it wasn't on then the HT was either playing a movie, or a concert BR. There were a couple of nights where it was going all night, sleep a few hours, and start again.

I have a bit of tinnitus in my left ear, and it is buzzing pretty good now. I know from past experience that certain frequencies (piano music) aggravates it. When that happens it has a tendency to get louder. Now I suspect that something has been exposed in the stereo that tweaks the tinnitus. So, I turned the stereo off this afternoon, and am listening to normal background noise. I committed to work Monday, and maybe Tuesday, so I will let my ears rest, and then pursue this a bit further.